Vortech Supercharger numbers
12-19-2005, 05:49 PM
#22
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Alberto is a PESAMIST(Sp?) IMO and very proud of his "Bolt on" time, which is fine with me, but I have a Stillen with other Mods and Drag Radials that will run 12's and he would never believe me. I don't have a camera or I would video it. The point is that no one really comes here to lie I don't think, but Alberto will call you out if you say something other than what is typical.
I know the Typical Stilllen Kit isn't gonna hit the 12's, but add a custom pully and a few other mods with drag radials and the 5AT and it can be done consistently!
I know the Typical Stilllen Kit isn't gonna hit the 12's, but add a custom pully and a few other mods with drag radials and the 5AT and it can be done consistently!
Last edited by BLN350Z; 12-19-2005 at 06:12 PM.
12-19-2005, 06:11 PM
#23
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Originally Posted by BLN350Z
Alberto is a PESAMIST(Sp?) IMO and very proud of his "Bolt on" time, which is fine with me, but I have a Stillen with other Mods and Drag Radials that will run 12's and he would never believe me. I don't have a camera or I would video it. The point is that no one really comes here to lie I don't think, but Alberto call you out if you say something other than what is typical.
I know the Typical Stilllen Kit isn't gonna hit the 12's, but add a custom pully and a few other mods with drag radials and the 5AT and it can be done consistently!
I know the Typical Stilllen Kit isn't gonna hit the 12's, but add a custom pully and a few other mods with drag radials and the 5AT and it can be done consistently!
12-19-2005, 09:12 PM
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Originally Posted by jy535
do u neeed the fuel return system if your going to run 440 injectors and a fuel pump with the U-TEC?
12-19-2005, 10:11 PM
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i love my vortech..........if you want to be a HP king dont go for it....... if you want to race and beat corvettes, M5's, Porsches, Camaro SS's and some other big dog cars out there, it will do the trick........ Id love to have a 450hp TT car that ran low 11's but the maitnence and expenses that it will take from you might be worth it to you but just are not worth it to me. I put my vortech in and have not even touched it for or looked at it since the instal..... Its like its not even there, completely maitnence free besides changing the filter when its dirty..........I have lost 1 race since i put it on and it was to a 97 Porsche TT other then that its simply flawless. I plan on upgrading the pulley doing some cams, injectors and other mods, i have plenty of confidence that i will be able to run with the best of them after that, and garuntee my car just as it is now can get mid to high 12s with out a problem.....
12-20-2005, 08:12 AM
#29
Originally Posted by jpc350
I agree with Mr. LINKs.. By the way why do people quote Hp #'s when it's Tq. that rules.. Hp is for pulling trailers. Its for work not acceleration...
you mean the other way around right?
no one pulls a trailer at 6500 rpms
12-20-2005, 08:48 AM
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Originally Posted by neffster
I didn't have the heart to say it... 
12-20-2005, 08:49 AM
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Originally Posted by sentry65
you mean the other way around right?
no one pulls a trailer at 6500 rpms
no one pulls a trailer at 6500 rpms
12-20-2005, 09:06 AM
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Originally Posted by jpc350
No I meant exactly what I wrote.. A guy named Watt (sound familiar)determined that a horse can pull x lbs of weight and he called this # a unit of Horsepower..Hp is a completely arbitrary unit..the ability to measure work..
12-20-2005, 09:17 AM
#34
yeah torque is how much load you can pull and hp is how much the engine actually can turn the driveshaft.
there's a reason bulldozers and diesal trucks etc have monster tq numbers and smaller hp numbers - even big dualies pickups. Also all those engines are designed to hit you hard with tq early in the powerband. Even peak hp is usually somewhere in the middle rpms
there's a reason bulldozers and diesal trucks etc have monster tq numbers and smaller hp numbers - even big dualies pickups. Also all those engines are designed to hit you hard with tq early in the powerband. Even peak hp is usually somewhere in the middle rpms
12-20-2005, 10:05 AM
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Look at the Hp #'s a turbo makes and its corresponding Tq #'s..Hp is in the low to mid 400 and Tq is low 400's..They hands down will walk a S/C with similar Hp #'s...Reason there Tq is much lower. Tq rules when it comes to acceleration.. dv/dt..and the force applied to the crank (Tq) is what turns the crank..not horsepower..
12-20-2005, 10:34 AM
#36
more torque helps with accelleration, but if it's all that matters, then you'd think the really fast dragsters would all be using big diesel engines with 2x as much torque than hp.
torque is what breaks parts.
I think of it as torque being the ability to start working, as in how quickly the engine will get off it's but and start going.
And hp being how much work actually gets done when the engine gets off it's butt and starts moving.
Down the 1/4 mile a turbo will usually out do a SC because the engine is trying harder to reach its peak output. It's the torque made by the tires to that actually accelerates the car, not the torque generated by the engine.
torque is what breaks parts.
I think of it as torque being the ability to start working, as in how quickly the engine will get off it's but and start going.
And hp being how much work actually gets done when the engine gets off it's butt and starts moving.
Down the 1/4 mile a turbo will usually out do a SC because the engine is trying harder to reach its peak output. It's the torque made by the tires to that actually accelerates the car, not the torque generated by the engine.
Last edited by sentry65; 12-20-2005 at 10:37 AM.
12-20-2005, 11:04 AM
#38
right, it gets transfered to the wheels from the engine, but it's measured at the wheels in the real world with accelleration
gearing is just as important. If torque was the most important thing, people would shift their Z's at 4500rpms
people shift to maintain maximum hp, not torque
gearing is just as important. If torque was the most important thing, people would shift their Z's at 4500rpms
people shift to maintain maximum hp, not torque
Last edited by sentry65; 12-20-2005 at 11:09 AM.
12-20-2005, 11:09 AM
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I was ALWAYS under the impression that Torque had to do with getting off the starting line and HP had to do with getting you there faster once you were moving.
12-20-2005, 11:13 AM
#40
I think that's true to a large degree so long as you have traction. People with turbo Z's really are struggling with traction and some are gradually starting to use drag radials to get the traction at the expense of handling - but they knew that first
in a less powerful car, it can run shorter gears, lighter flywheel and rev higher at launch to help make up for some of that torque loss.
I see it as like if you're tightening a bolt with a torque wrench. If the bolt is loose, it doesn't actually do you much good to grab the wrench on the very end of the wrench for maximum torque to turn the loose bolt. If you were to grab the neck of it and just twist your wrist, the bolt would go on just as fast. But as soon as the bolt tightens up that just won't do. You need to get more torque on that wrench to tighten the bolt.
If you grabbed the wrench on the end from the start though, even though it's not actually needed, it helps guarantee that there won't be any slow down because you always have more than enough torque at all times
If you kept your hand on the neck of the wrench, you'd only be able to tighten the bolt so far (as in make the car go so fast)
If you're at the point where the tq you have is too much for your tires at low rpms, you'll spin out at launch too hard.
Since driving the 1/4 mile is usually at the 5000-6600rpm range with shifting, that's the torque range everyone is interested in really. For daily driving, the turbo cars will have more torque at 4k and have more throttle response there.
you can't just floor the gas pedal at launch. You'll just spin tires. You gotta ease it on. If you have the torque like what a turbo has, you need to ease the throttle on even more so - depending on what tires you're using of course.
So two cars, same tires, same everything, one turbo, one SC, the turbo car will use part throttle at 4000 rpms, while the SC car will use full throttle - to make up for having less torque. Of course if both cars have maximum grip race tires, then the turbo car will grab and hook and that big torque CAN be used at full throttle and that'll beat the SC car silly at launch
I don't use racing tires/drag radials on the street though, so that kinda evens out the playing field a little, but still in the 5000-6600rpm range, the turbo cars do still make more torque even though it's dropping off fast while the SC cars are still building it up a little - but at 50whp or so lower. So out on the street with normal street tires, the turbo cars will win usually.
there's so many factors with going fast though other than hp and torque. Having too much power for your tires makes the car harder to go fast in because the threshold for maintaining maximum power at the maximum grip level of your tires gets really small and harder to get just right.
if you have short gearing (which the Z does), ideally for the fastest 1/4 time you'd want your peak torque to be between 5000-6600 rpm's. If the Z had taller and fewer gears, when you shift, the rpm's would drop down to like 3000-4000 rpm's. As it is now with the Z and turbos, when you shift, your rpm's are way past peak torque (4000 rpms area). That's one reason why for daily driving where you might not always shift at redline a turbo Z is so much more fun than a SC Z.
It also contributes to the illusion that the car is faster feeling than it actually is. If you daily drive your turbo Z, it'll feel incredible where you can't imagine another car being faster than you because you drive around at peak torque all day long. But when you race, it's still DAMN fast, but probably not as fast as your ego would lead you to believe it is.
In contrast, a SC car would actually suprise you when racing because of how it lead you to think it's not as fast because of the buildup in torque as you reach redline. Daily driving it, it doesn't feel too much drastically different than stock and therefore not as exciting feeling AKA tame around 3-4k compared to the turbo Z
If you daily drove in a 380whp/360tq ST Z and a 460whp/350tq SC Z, you'd maybe think the ST Z is faster because of how early the big torque starts even though it'll end up being probably slower down the 1/4 mile on normal street tires
btw, this is a good link for those that care
http://vettenet.org/torquehp.html
in a less powerful car, it can run shorter gears, lighter flywheel and rev higher at launch to help make up for some of that torque loss.
I see it as like if you're tightening a bolt with a torque wrench. If the bolt is loose, it doesn't actually do you much good to grab the wrench on the very end of the wrench for maximum torque to turn the loose bolt. If you were to grab the neck of it and just twist your wrist, the bolt would go on just as fast. But as soon as the bolt tightens up that just won't do. You need to get more torque on that wrench to tighten the bolt.
If you grabbed the wrench on the end from the start though, even though it's not actually needed, it helps guarantee that there won't be any slow down because you always have more than enough torque at all times
If you kept your hand on the neck of the wrench, you'd only be able to tighten the bolt so far (as in make the car go so fast)
If you're at the point where the tq you have is too much for your tires at low rpms, you'll spin out at launch too hard.
Since driving the 1/4 mile is usually at the 5000-6600rpm range with shifting, that's the torque range everyone is interested in really. For daily driving, the turbo cars will have more torque at 4k and have more throttle response there.
you can't just floor the gas pedal at launch. You'll just spin tires. You gotta ease it on. If you have the torque like what a turbo has, you need to ease the throttle on even more so - depending on what tires you're using of course.
So two cars, same tires, same everything, one turbo, one SC, the turbo car will use part throttle at 4000 rpms, while the SC car will use full throttle - to make up for having less torque. Of course if both cars have maximum grip race tires, then the turbo car will grab and hook and that big torque CAN be used at full throttle and that'll beat the SC car silly at launch
I don't use racing tires/drag radials on the street though, so that kinda evens out the playing field a little, but still in the 5000-6600rpm range, the turbo cars do still make more torque even though it's dropping off fast while the SC cars are still building it up a little - but at 50whp or so lower. So out on the street with normal street tires, the turbo cars will win usually.
there's so many factors with going fast though other than hp and torque. Having too much power for your tires makes the car harder to go fast in because the threshold for maintaining maximum power at the maximum grip level of your tires gets really small and harder to get just right.
if you have short gearing (which the Z does), ideally for the fastest 1/4 time you'd want your peak torque to be between 5000-6600 rpm's. If the Z had taller and fewer gears, when you shift, the rpm's would drop down to like 3000-4000 rpm's. As it is now with the Z and turbos, when you shift, your rpm's are way past peak torque (4000 rpms area). That's one reason why for daily driving where you might not always shift at redline a turbo Z is so much more fun than a SC Z.
It also contributes to the illusion that the car is faster feeling than it actually is. If you daily drive your turbo Z, it'll feel incredible where you can't imagine another car being faster than you because you drive around at peak torque all day long. But when you race, it's still DAMN fast, but probably not as fast as your ego would lead you to believe it is.
In contrast, a SC car would actually suprise you when racing because of how it lead you to think it's not as fast because of the buildup in torque as you reach redline. Daily driving it, it doesn't feel too much drastically different than stock and therefore not as exciting feeling AKA tame around 3-4k compared to the turbo Z
If you daily drove in a 380whp/360tq ST Z and a 460whp/350tq SC Z, you'd maybe think the ST Z is faster because of how early the big torque starts even though it'll end up being probably slower down the 1/4 mile on normal street tires
btw, this is a good link for those that care
http://vettenet.org/torquehp.html
Last edited by sentry65; 12-20-2005 at 12:21 PM.
