Taller gearing
Originally Posted by barthelb
when the strip re-opens, I'll show you what a 3.3 can do for a FI Z. On the freeway our stop gearing is great. But at the track you shouldn't have to shift 4 times. Thats why all the other cars with the same power get better times. What Mike was saying about staying in boost longer is somewhat correct. Think about it. We are both at the track and line up. We have roughly the same power. When i change the FD, I'll hit 60+ in 2nd gear. You will have to shift to 3rd, by the time I hit 3rd and wind it out I'll be just about at the end of the 1/4. Then when I shift to 4th i only have to go another 100ft or so and pass the 1/4mile. The less amount of time you have to lift to shift the faster you will be as long as the gear isn't to tall which the 3.3 isn't.
Originally Posted by Alberto
This argument all goes away if you find somebody that doesnt lose momentum on a shift. Unfortunately I dont see many Z owners with "skills"....but if you had equal drivers same car, same 60ft, the car with shorter gears and 1 more gear change would still run faster....
this is exactly why the VORTECH smeared (in the 1/4 mile) the other Zs in that speed magazine shootout...
balanced car overall, shifted like ALBERTO, with little to no loss in engine inertia... the Vortech made 360whp at 6k and maximum torque at 4700-5500, the sweet spot for a smack in the azz when you switch gears at WOT.
i don't drag my n/a Z but do race it on the street from the light. i shift above 5500 on avg and usually fair pretty well...
i'm subscribing to ALBERTOs drag thread when he finally makes one up after is ST install
because once he learns the nature of that ST w/ his Z and learns how to balance that power, it should be killer!Zquicksilver
Last edited by Zquicksilver; Jan 12, 2006 at 09:42 AM.
Originally Posted by barthelb
when the strip re-opens, I'll show you what a 3.3 can do for a FI Z. On the freeway our stop gearing is great. But at the track you shouldn't have to shift 4 times. Thats why all the other cars with the same power get better times. What Mike was saying about staying in boost longer is somewhat correct. Think about it. We are both at the track and line up. We have roughly the same power. When i change the FD, I'll hit 60+ in 2nd gear. You will have to shift to 3rd, by the time I hit 3rd and wind it out I'll be just about at the end of the 1/4. Then when I shift to 4th i only have to go another 100ft or so and pass the 1/4mile. The less amount of time you have to lift to shift the faster you will be as long as the gear isn't to tall which the 3.3 isn't.
Originally Posted by Alberto
This argument all goes away if you find somebody that doesnt lose momentum on a shift. Unfortunately I dont see many Z owners with "skills"....but if you had equal drivers same car, same 60ft, the car with shorter gears and 1 more gear change would still run faster....
You mean the driver with better skill (not same skill level) and shorted gearing would win because the better driver would not lose momentum cause he is better. But I bet in the 1/4 mile the less skilled driver with taller gearing would give the skilled guy a run for his money. Because no matter how good of a driver you lose momemtum between shifts. What about if you are a skilled driver and have taller gearing where first gear tops out around 60mph just imgine 1/4 mile time. My point is taller gearing is better for a turbo'ed car not a SC'ed car since peak power is towards redline. I am just disscussing from a previous car expience, once I install my turbo on the Z I can understand better for myself.
Thanks for the replys everyone....
why not go with the 3.9 final drive then if it'll improve your accelleration and all that?
I mean, that should be a top priority I'd think
yeah IMO the 3.9 gears would be good for the centrifical SC setups
I mean, that should be a top priority I'd think
yeah IMO the 3.9 gears would be good for the centrifical SC setups
Last edited by sentry65; Jan 12, 2006 at 10:08 AM.
Originally Posted by sentry65
why not go with the 3.9 final drive then if it'll improve your accelleration and all that?
I mean, that should be a top priority I'd think
I mean, that should be a top priority I'd think
That would be good if you are running a SC'er.
Originally Posted by sentry65
then the Z should be a monster 1/4 mile runner in theory but it sure as hell isn't
a 400whp 3700 lb camaro with drag radials can hit 11.6's
then does that mean they're a way better driver than Z people considering Z's with 430whp@around 3200-3300 lbs are hitting 11.7's with the way more aggressive gearing?
for reference, here's my data:
http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/etdb.p...&pp=25&page=12
a 400whp 3700 lb camaro with drag radials can hit 11.6's
then does that mean they're a way better driver than Z people considering Z's with 430whp@around 3200-3300 lbs are hitting 11.7's with the way more aggressive gearing?
for reference, here's my data:
http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/etdb.p...&pp=25&page=12
Furthermore...F-bodies do NOT weigh 3700lbs...more like 3400.
How about we reference some real cars that were run on the same day at the same track. Like my buddies 99 cammed WS-6 Trans AM 6MT with 412rwhp vs. my Z. His car ran a best of 12.1@115mph to my 11.7@120mph..with nearly identical 60' times. Seems about online with power and weight...the gearing has nearly no bearing at all in this situation.
why don't viper people put way short gears in their car to get a top speed of around 160mph or whatever then? Seems like it'd be the performance mod of the century?
Why do professional drag cars have 1, 2, or 3 gears and not a million shorter gears? They obviously have traction
shorter gearing is a way to get more useable power out of a less powerful engine. If you have the power though, then you don't need so much gearing because of diminishing returns in speed.
Originally Posted by Zquicksilver
LOL... nice ^...
I have to get a ride with you sometime, maybe at one of the CHi-town meets in the spring...
nice rims by the way
Zquicksilver
I have to get a ride with you sometime, maybe at one of the CHi-town meets in the spring...
nice rims by the way
Zquicksilver
Originally Posted by Mikea
You mean the driver with better skill (not same skill level) and shorted gearing would win because the better driver would not lose momentum cause he is better. But I bet in the 1/4 mile the less skilled driver with taller gearing would give the skilled guy a run for his money. Because no matter how good of a driver you lose momemtum between shifts. What about if you are a skilled driver and have taller gearing where first gear tops out around 60mph just imgine 1/4 mile time. My point is taller gearing is better for a turbo'ed car not a SC'ed car since peak power is towards redline. I am just disscussing from a previous car expience, once I install my turbo on the Z I can understand better for myself.
Thanks for the replys everyone....
Thanks for the replys everyone....
Originally Posted by sentry65
why not go with the 3.9 final drive then if it'll improve your accelleration and all that?
I mean, that should be a top priority I'd think
yeah IMO the 3.9 gears would be good for the centrifical SC setups
I mean, that should be a top priority I'd think
yeah IMO the 3.9 gears would be good for the centrifical SC setups
Master
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,517
Likes: 0
From: California
Very tempting but you'll miss the point by doing that. If I can improve my best time with the change of a FD only then that shows me I have improved my time and therefore netted a better time because of the FD change. I can't sit here and compare my time to yours for numerous reasons.
Year of car
Car weight at run
Model year car
Tire size/ rim size and weight
Boost pressure/power level
I mean its cool to say it but realistically and fairly speaking theres no way to duplicate what you could do against me at a given power level. That's why its in the hands of the driver. So, my best so far at 440whp with my unknown degree negative camber was a 1.9 60ft 12.19 @ 115/6mph. So, if I had a better 60ft it would have been an easy 11.xx sec run and i have a Touring model. Now I have corrected my camber and have 462 445 @ 9.5psi. So when I change out my FD I'll let you know thats the only real way to determine it.
Year of car
Car weight at run
Model year car
Tire size/ rim size and weight
Boost pressure/power level
I mean its cool to say it but realistically and fairly speaking theres no way to duplicate what you could do against me at a given power level. That's why its in the hands of the driver. So, my best so far at 440whp with my unknown degree negative camber was a 1.9 60ft 12.19 @ 115/6mph. So, if I had a better 60ft it would have been an easy 11.xx sec run and i have a Touring model. Now I have corrected my camber and have 462 445 @ 9.5psi. So when I change out my FD I'll let you know thats the only real way to determine it.
Originally Posted by BriGuyMax
You beat my 1/4 E.T and trap on radial tires with the 430rwhp and 3.3FD gearing and I'll send you $100 in the mail.
Bart-not to be a dick but here is my take on your situation. With 440whp you should have trapped higher than 115-116mph. That tells me your shifting could use a lot of work, you obviously have the power. And because of this, I know that with the auto FD and hopefully 1 less gear change you will run faster...but this doesnt mean a lower FD is better for a turbo Z, just in YOUR case I believe it will help. Again, not putting anybody down, just my opinion.
Master
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,517
Likes: 0
From: California
This is what this forum is for to discuss. Its only immature people that would result to name calling so I don't mind this at all.
My shifting probably and most likely can use work, not doubting that. But what im trying to explain is the way my car is tuned. It may not be the same for everyone. But when my boost comes on it hits hard and usually gives me more wheel spin then I need. There are ways to correct this and i have done that which help a little.
I believe because that last gear change at the end with the 3.5 fd hurts the run. Especially in the trap. Because the trap isn't the real speed your going. Its a known calculation that is done by the computer on the lanes. This was explained at Infineon Raceway by the organizers.
You can shift as fast as, well you do, you probably shift faster than anyone ive seen but its still just a .1 of a second slower then not needing to press that clutch. Now if I speed shifted with my power then I'd have a way faster time but I was told not to do that with boost on a stock block.
Like you said tho, what works for one might not be for another and i agree. So the only way is to have that person try it and see if it works for them.
My shifting probably and most likely can use work, not doubting that. But what im trying to explain is the way my car is tuned. It may not be the same for everyone. But when my boost comes on it hits hard and usually gives me more wheel spin then I need. There are ways to correct this and i have done that which help a little.
I believe because that last gear change at the end with the 3.5 fd hurts the run. Especially in the trap. Because the trap isn't the real speed your going. Its a known calculation that is done by the computer on the lanes. This was explained at Infineon Raceway by the organizers.
You can shift as fast as, well you do, you probably shift faster than anyone ive seen but its still just a .1 of a second slower then not needing to press that clutch. Now if I speed shifted with my power then I'd have a way faster time but I was told not to do that with boost on a stock block.
Like you said tho, what works for one might not be for another and i agree. So the only way is to have that person try it and see if it works for them.
Originally Posted by Alberto
Bart-not to be a dick but here is my take on your situation. With 440whp you should have trapped higher than 115-116mph. That tells me your shifting could use a lot of work, you obviously have the power. And because of this, I know that with the auto FD and hopefully 1 less gear change you will run faster...but this doesnt mean a lower FD is better for a turbo Z, just in YOUR case I believe it will help. Again, not putting anybody down, just my opinion.
Originally Posted by barthelb
This is what this forum is for to discuss. Its only immature people that would result to name calling so I don't mind this at all.
My shifting probably and most likely can use work, not doubting that. But what im trying to explain is the way my car is tuned. It may not be the same for everyone. But when my boost comes on it hits hard and usually gives me more wheel spin then I need. There are ways to correct this and i have done that which help a little.
I believe because that last gear change at the end with the 3.5 fd hurts the run. Especially in the trap. Because the trap isn't the real speed your going. Its a known calculation that is done by the computer on the lanes. This was explained at Infineon Raceway by the organizers.
You can shift as fast as, well you do, you probably shift faster than anyone ive seen but its still just a .1 of a second slower then not needing to press that clutch. Now if I speed shifted with my power then I'd have a way faster time but I was told not to do that with boost on a stock block.
Like you said tho, what works for one might not be for another and i agree. So the only way is to have that person try it and see if it works for them.
My shifting probably and most likely can use work, not doubting that. But what im trying to explain is the way my car is tuned. It may not be the same for everyone. But when my boost comes on it hits hard and usually gives me more wheel spin then I need. There are ways to correct this and i have done that which help a little.
I believe because that last gear change at the end with the 3.5 fd hurts the run. Especially in the trap. Because the trap isn't the real speed your going. Its a known calculation that is done by the computer on the lanes. This was explained at Infineon Raceway by the organizers.
You can shift as fast as, well you do, you probably shift faster than anyone ive seen but its still just a .1 of a second slower then not needing to press that clutch. Now if I speed shifted with my power then I'd have a way faster time but I was told not to do that with boost on a stock block.
Like you said tho, what works for one might not be for another and i agree. So the only way is to have that person try it and see if it works for them.
Well said....I dont care who you are you will lose time pushing in the clutch. Also with a turbo you want to be in boost as long as possiable before shifting .
Originally Posted by Alberto
No you wrong and are still missing the point, and a proven fact. And no, not everyone loses momentum between shifts big guy...no Z would benefit from 60mph in 1st, we dont produce 400ft/lbs torque off idle like a Viper or a C6 Z06-your argument is worthless. What works on 1 car doesnt mean it will on another.
You are correct our cars dont produce as much as Viper but when testing 0-60mph Im sure you would want to launch the car.... not give it a run from idle. My argument is not worthless because the cars stated have big hp and taller gearing for a reason. Im not talking about body kits Im talking about power transfer (diffs).
Last edited by Mikea; Jan 12, 2006 at 11:16 AM.
Originally Posted by Mikea
Well said....I dont care who you are you will lose time pushing in the clutch. Also with a turbo you want to be in boost as long as possiable before shifting .
Originally Posted by BriGuyMax
Yes, but you also want to maximize acceleration while you are in each gear, and taller gearing will lower your rate of acceleration.
Just think about all that extra power wasted either spinning, or laying off the throttle trying NOT to spin.