my vortech tuner kit install process thread
02-28-2007, 02:50 PM
#281
Can you list the braces from the front back.
Also more info on the bushings.
Looks like you have an awesome project on your hands. Congrats on doing everything. Hope it all works out.
Also any vids and results post dyno??
Thanks
Also more info on the bushings.
Looks like you have an awesome project on your hands. Congrats on doing everything. Hope it all works out.
Also any vids and results post dyno??
Thanks
02-28-2007, 07:21 PM
#282
DMK, I changed my idle through an ECU flash, but you can raise it at the dealer too up to a point - like 850 rpms or so. Each dealer is different. One was going to charge me $38 to do it, but I've heard $80-100 too...
NA&CH, the bars I have from front to rear re the tanabe brace, GT spec ladder brace, GT spec lateral brace, and GT spec rear brace.
here's some new pics - sorry they're blurry. Need a new camera, this one has been dropped HARD about 4 times on concrete so its moody...
NA&CH, the bars I have from front to rear re the tanabe brace, GT spec ladder brace, GT spec lateral brace, and GT spec rear brace.
here's some new pics - sorry they're blurry. Need a new camera, this one has been dropped HARD about 4 times on concrete so its moody...
02-28-2007, 07:38 PM
#284
ok well the car wants to make more power, but it's just not going to do it until I get the fuel pressure stable. Apparently the fuel pump is overheating or something. We'll do a run and it'll be real lean. Do a run after that without doing anything, and it's lean again. Wait 2 min, do a run, the A/F is perfect or even a little rich. So it's that sorta thing where it just isn't consistent and we even noticed last time it was even more extreme with less than 1/4 tank of gas. When we put more gas in the car, it seemed to be a little more consistent
The car made 420whp on their dyno, just like last time and it seemed to have no problems doing it. It did hit 430 on a lean run, but obviously wasn't how it should be tuned. I didn't bother getting a dynochart because the car basically isn't finished. Both Rich and I think with stable fuel pressure, it'll hit around 440-450whp reliably with this new setup
The water injection does work and it's cold, though we didn't seem to get any additional power simply by turning it on, but like I said, the whole car wasn't ever consistent. We tested that the water injection was working by plugging the nozzle hole and spraying it into a cup. It really is pretty cold. In fact my SSV was cold to the touch after running it on the dyno. The throttle plate was a clean mirror finish with no black oil grease on it at all. I knew it'd clean the engine internals, but didn't know it'd work that fast. We measured the water output when we set the controller to 30% and also at 100% and it put out the exact same amount of water both times which seemed weird. Though when I was holding the cup, it seemed to come on less gradual and more all at once when it was set to 100% water volume. The amount of water that it was outputting was if you were to spray it into a coke can, it'd fill it up about 3/4 of an inch, so it's a good gulp of water.
I am reaching a full 12 psi of boost now. The new belt system really does work
I'll take some better pictures and list out the part number for the belt later on
Anyway, I'm waiting for Charles at CJM to come out with the twin pump assembly now because I'm basically out of things to try. We've tried everything else. We have a million theories what's the actual cause, but at the end of the day, replacing that pump assembly and going with a better fuel pump or twin pumps seems to be the ticket to absolutely solve the issues
The problems multiply on themselves since tuning the A/F and fuel pump voltage is later on after the fuel pressure drops - and it's not a consistent drop. We had it drop to 38 psi at redline. On one run it was 25 psi....at redline. This is without adjusting the FPR because we already know that's not going to solve anything after trying it before and replacing the unit - along with so many other things. Something has just gotta be happening inside the pump assembly and in some way it has to be related to how hot the pump gets
The car otherwise drives great. The exhaust sounds pretty good. It's maybe slightly louder than the nismo was. I actually had to cover my ears a little at one point that I never had to before with the nismo. It's much more rumbly than it was before. It sounds maybe a little meaner or beefier at startup. Being brand new there was some slight rasp in the upper rpms, but it seemed to go away when we started getting more dyno runs in. I might still end up doing an X-pipe on it. I kinda think putting an X-pipe on the APS would basically make it sound a little more like the Fast Intentions exhaust, which we had fitment problems with - at least the polished stainless steel one I ordered and I have pictures of it...it was way way off...
The rear end of the car is MUCH more stable. It just feels more planted and actually heavier in some sorta way. Before it felt lighter and real easy to oversteer and lose traction, but now it seems to weigh down harder on the rear.
The steering with the JIC tie rods feels maybe slightly heavier, but more solid to me.
The SPL solid bushings really stand out to me. Yes they do a slight whine at 45+ mph. It's not a constant whine, just when you're giving it some throttle. But they made actually a pretty noticable difference in drivability with my clutch. Starting from a standstill is easier. I can stand on the gas pedal a little earlier and the rear end just bites down now instead of the slight jitteryness it would have at times. The people who say they have no wheel hop just by changing their springs or shocks... well I'm going to officially call BS on them because they haven't driven my car. It really is pretty smooth now and the rear just plants down. I can swear my shifter shifts smoother than I remember, but I really wouldn't expect the diff mounts to effect the shifter, but i guess it might keep the transmission from twisting as much in some form since now both the engine and diff are bolted down solid
From the moment you let the clutch out to when you actually start going, it's very smooth in how the tires bite down. It's almost like a rear engine car in a sorta way with how the weight presses down on the rear tires without there being any squirming as the stock diff mount would flex creating some wheel hop. I also softened up my rear sway bar a notch. I have noticed that going over bumps does seem a little more harsh though - could also be the bushings in the camber and traction rods though, or even the GT spec lateral brace. Those things are probably also partly contributing to there being less wheel hop. Either way, I think that did help my rear traction out some and that was what I was wanting. Oh, and for people with lightweight clutches, you know that sound you get when you're under 2500 rpms and in too high of a gear, well that vibration sound is actually less severe now and seems to stop about 200-300 rpms lower than before, so there's more headroom for avoiding that vibration sound and when you do get it, it's nowhere near as bad as it used to be
We spent so much time on the dyno and fixing little things that we didn't get to put my new seat in. And there is some issue with my suspension where I'm not getting enough adjustment to lower the negative camber in the rear, so it's still too negative. Next time I'm in, Rich has some ideas for it though. The issue isn't camber, but toe adjustement. If I reduce the camber anymore, the toe gets really messed up.
So that's it. I drove the car home, but can't really drive it above 5500 rpms until the fuel pressure issue gets nailed down...so no 1/4 times or road courses for me until then... There was a road course day next thursday too that a friend of mine was going to go to...
Anyway I'm glad I haven't tried tracking the car yet because the fuel issue isn't safe for it. Overall as usual, I'm real happy with Dynocomp's work though and recommend them
oh, and I did take some video, but it's really pretty bad - the sound didn't come out clear at all....I'll see if some of it can be salvaged, but I didn't get any good sounding clips of a good dyno run that's worth listening too. The mic speaker was overwhelmed. Well I have an ok dyno run on video, but it stopped at like 5000-5500 rpms because it was like the 2nd run of the day. After that, I totally forgot to video any of the later ones
here's a video link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdJcKOpC0L0
oh, and here's a pic comparing the stock camber rods to the JIC (they do bend like the stock ones, but they're bending toward the camera so you can't see it)
The car made 420whp on their dyno, just like last time and it seemed to have no problems doing it. It did hit 430 on a lean run, but obviously wasn't how it should be tuned. I didn't bother getting a dynochart because the car basically isn't finished. Both Rich and I think with stable fuel pressure, it'll hit around 440-450whp reliably with this new setup
The water injection does work and it's cold, though we didn't seem to get any additional power simply by turning it on, but like I said, the whole car wasn't ever consistent. We tested that the water injection was working by plugging the nozzle hole and spraying it into a cup. It really is pretty cold. In fact my SSV was cold to the touch after running it on the dyno. The throttle plate was a clean mirror finish with no black oil grease on it at all. I knew it'd clean the engine internals, but didn't know it'd work that fast. We measured the water output when we set the controller to 30% and also at 100% and it put out the exact same amount of water both times which seemed weird. Though when I was holding the cup, it seemed to come on less gradual and more all at once when it was set to 100% water volume. The amount of water that it was outputting was if you were to spray it into a coke can, it'd fill it up about 3/4 of an inch, so it's a good gulp of water.
I am reaching a full 12 psi of boost now. The new belt system really does work
I'll take some better pictures and list out the part number for the belt later onAnyway, I'm waiting for Charles at CJM to come out with the twin pump assembly now because I'm basically out of things to try. We've tried everything else. We have a million theories what's the actual cause, but at the end of the day, replacing that pump assembly and going with a better fuel pump or twin pumps seems to be the ticket to absolutely solve the issues
The problems multiply on themselves since tuning the A/F and fuel pump voltage is later on after the fuel pressure drops - and it's not a consistent drop. We had it drop to 38 psi at redline. On one run it was 25 psi....at redline. This is without adjusting the FPR because we already know that's not going to solve anything after trying it before and replacing the unit - along with so many other things. Something has just gotta be happening inside the pump assembly and in some way it has to be related to how hot the pump gets
The car otherwise drives great. The exhaust sounds pretty good. It's maybe slightly louder than the nismo was. I actually had to cover my ears a little at one point that I never had to before with the nismo. It's much more rumbly than it was before. It sounds maybe a little meaner or beefier at startup. Being brand new there was some slight rasp in the upper rpms, but it seemed to go away when we started getting more dyno runs in. I might still end up doing an X-pipe on it. I kinda think putting an X-pipe on the APS would basically make it sound a little more like the Fast Intentions exhaust, which we had fitment problems with - at least the polished stainless steel one I ordered and I have pictures of it...it was way way off...
The rear end of the car is MUCH more stable. It just feels more planted and actually heavier in some sorta way. Before it felt lighter and real easy to oversteer and lose traction, but now it seems to weigh down harder on the rear.
The steering with the JIC tie rods feels maybe slightly heavier, but more solid to me.
The SPL solid bushings really stand out to me. Yes they do a slight whine at 45+ mph. It's not a constant whine, just when you're giving it some throttle. But they made actually a pretty noticable difference in drivability with my clutch. Starting from a standstill is easier. I can stand on the gas pedal a little earlier and the rear end just bites down now instead of the slight jitteryness it would have at times. The people who say they have no wheel hop just by changing their springs or shocks... well I'm going to officially call BS on them because they haven't driven my car. It really is pretty smooth now and the rear just plants down. I can swear my shifter shifts smoother than I remember, but I really wouldn't expect the diff mounts to effect the shifter, but i guess it might keep the transmission from twisting as much in some form since now both the engine and diff are bolted down solid
From the moment you let the clutch out to when you actually start going, it's very smooth in how the tires bite down. It's almost like a rear engine car in a sorta way with how the weight presses down on the rear tires without there being any squirming as the stock diff mount would flex creating some wheel hop. I also softened up my rear sway bar a notch. I have noticed that going over bumps does seem a little more harsh though - could also be the bushings in the camber and traction rods though, or even the GT spec lateral brace. Those things are probably also partly contributing to there being less wheel hop. Either way, I think that did help my rear traction out some and that was what I was wanting. Oh, and for people with lightweight clutches, you know that sound you get when you're under 2500 rpms and in too high of a gear, well that vibration sound is actually less severe now and seems to stop about 200-300 rpms lower than before, so there's more headroom for avoiding that vibration sound and when you do get it, it's nowhere near as bad as it used to be
We spent so much time on the dyno and fixing little things that we didn't get to put my new seat in. And there is some issue with my suspension where I'm not getting enough adjustment to lower the negative camber in the rear, so it's still too negative. Next time I'm in, Rich has some ideas for it though. The issue isn't camber, but toe adjustement. If I reduce the camber anymore, the toe gets really messed up.
So that's it. I drove the car home, but can't really drive it above 5500 rpms until the fuel pressure issue gets nailed down...so no 1/4 times or road courses for me until then... There was a road course day next thursday too that a friend of mine was going to go to...
Anyway I'm glad I haven't tried tracking the car yet because the fuel issue isn't safe for it. Overall as usual, I'm real happy with Dynocomp's work though and recommend them oh, and I did take some video, but it's really pretty bad - the sound didn't come out clear at all....I'll see if some of it can be salvaged, but I didn't get any good sounding clips of a good dyno run that's worth listening too. The mic speaker was overwhelmed. Well I have an ok dyno run on video, but it stopped at like 5000-5500 rpms because it was like the 2nd run of the day. After that, I totally forgot to video any of the later ones
here's a video link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdJcKOpC0L0
oh, and here's a pic comparing the stock camber rods to the JIC (they do bend like the stock ones, but they're bending toward the camera so you can't see it)
Last edited by sentry65; 03-01-2007 at 12:37 PM.
02-28-2007, 11:53 PM
#286
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Originally Posted by sentry65
DMK, I changed my idle through an ECU flash, but you can raise it at the dealer too up to a point - like 850 rpms or so. Each dealer is different. One was going to charge me $38 to do it, but I've heard $80-100 too...
NA&CH, the bars I have from front to rear re the tanabe brace, GT spec ladder brace, GT spec lateral brace, and GT spec rear brace.
here's some new pics - sorry they're blurry. Need a new camera, this one has been dropped HARD about 4 times on concrete so its moody...
NA&CH, the bars I have from front to rear re the tanabe brace, GT spec ladder brace, GT spec lateral brace, and GT spec rear brace.
here's some new pics - sorry they're blurry. Need a new camera, this one has been dropped HARD about 4 times on concrete so its moody...
03-01-2007, 02:33 AM
#288
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Do you know if there would be a problem for the dealer to raise my idle if I have my ecu reflashed? Possibly having the flash erased or them not being able to raise the idle?
03-01-2007, 06:06 AM
#289
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I just find it hard to believe that it is your fuel pump, but I guess anything is possible. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't your guys change the pump already a couple of times when you first started this project?
03-01-2007, 06:43 AM
#290
not the pump itself, but something about the assembly is causing a pressure drop, especially when it gets hot.
It could be somehow the pump assembly is warped, it could be something not sealing that we can't see, it could be the pump is getting hot, and especially so when overdriven with the booster pump and that's causing the rubber O-rings to warp and not seal when the pump gets hot. Barzten1 has the same issue and we both have aug 2002 build dates. Maybe Nissan changed something about the pump assembly early on. Who knows
It could be somehow the pump assembly is warped, it could be something not sealing that we can't see, it could be the pump is getting hot, and especially so when overdriven with the booster pump and that's causing the rubber O-rings to warp and not seal when the pump gets hot. Barzten1 has the same issue and we both have aug 2002 build dates. Maybe Nissan changed something about the pump assembly early on. Who knows
03-01-2007, 06:47 AM
#292
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Hmmm...I'd think that you would want to eliminate what could be causing the issue. That MSD booster should be disconnected first. Not sure how the assembly would cause overheating issues. I assume you are using the Walbro. Maybe swap it out for a stock pump and see what happens.
03-01-2007, 06:47 AM
#293
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Originally Posted by sentry65
not the pump itself, but something about the assembly is causing a pressure drop, especially when it gets hot.
It could be somehow the pump assembly is warped, it could be something not sealing that we can't see, it could be the pump is getting hot, and especially so when overdriven with the booster pump and that's causing the rubber O-rings to warp and not seal when the pump gets hot. Barzten1 has the same issue and we both have aug 2002 build dates. Maybe Nissan changed something about the pump assembly early on. Who knows
It could be somehow the pump assembly is warped, it could be something not sealing that we can't see, it could be the pump is getting hot, and especially so when overdriven with the booster pump and that's causing the rubber O-rings to warp and not seal when the pump gets hot. Barzten1 has the same issue and we both have aug 2002 build dates. Maybe Nissan changed something about the pump assembly early on. Who knows
i ended up getting a new o rings... i am sure you already tryed that but i figure i mention it anyways
03-01-2007, 06:59 AM
#294
basically nothing has changed since before adding the booster pump. The car is wanting to make more power now, and the inconsistencies are become a more crittical issue. We've tried replacing the walbro pump before with a known good one. If we disconnect the booster pump, then the fuel pump really will not deliver enough fuel anyway so that doesn't get us any closer.
I would like to eliminate the booster pump though. It might be contributing to the inconsistencies that seem temp related, but I'm not in a better possition without it because the fuel pressure will be so low, especially with the boost levels I'm at now.
I could buy a stock assembly and we could try reinstalling it all over again, but I'd rather eliminate the possibility of install error and get a stronger pump setup. I'd hate to spend $400 on a OEM pump assembly that might not solve anything, when I could spend just a little more and get one that's better and would eliminate the assembly as the issue.
We never did install the CJM stage 2 pipe because we thought we'd wait until we get the pump assembly. Maybe that's the issue, i dunno. Doesn't seem likely like it'd be though.
I would like to eliminate the booster pump though. It might be contributing to the inconsistencies that seem temp related, but I'm not in a better possition without it because the fuel pressure will be so low, especially with the boost levels I'm at now.
I could buy a stock assembly and we could try reinstalling it all over again, but I'd rather eliminate the possibility of install error and get a stronger pump setup. I'd hate to spend $400 on a OEM pump assembly that might not solve anything, when I could spend just a little more and get one that's better and would eliminate the assembly as the issue.
We never did install the CJM stage 2 pipe because we thought we'd wait until we get the pump assembly. Maybe that's the issue, i dunno. Doesn't seem likely like it'd be though.
Last edited by sentry65; 03-01-2007 at 08:49 AM.
03-01-2007, 08:56 AM
#295
just drove to work today and OMFG
, the handling is night and day better. Before through a fast sweeping turn, it felt a little spooky or twitchy - possibly from my sway bars being too stiff for my spring rates for street driving
Backing off the sway bars and adding the SPL bushings, JIC rods (mainly for their bushings), and GT spec lateral bar (I had all the other bars already on before) have really changed things for the better. The powergrid front endlinks in combo with the stock sway bar seem to be working really well. The 350EVO bar I took off weighs a freaking TON compared to the stock bar. Anyway, I obviously didn't need the sways to be as stiff as I had them with my 10kg/8kg spring rates
From what I understand, there's the schools of thought on suspension setup are something along the lines of:
-medium spring rates and aggressive shocks with stiff sway bars
or
-stiff springs, softer shock settings, and soft sway bars
or
-full out race car on smooth tracks with race tires, you can stiffen just about everything out, but it'd suck with traction on the street where the roads aren't perfectly smooth
, the handling is night and day better. Before through a fast sweeping turn, it felt a little spooky or twitchy - possibly from my sway bars being too stiff for my spring rates for street drivingBacking off the sway bars and adding the SPL bushings, JIC rods (mainly for their bushings), and GT spec lateral bar (I had all the other bars already on before) have really changed things for the better. The powergrid front endlinks in combo with the stock sway bar seem to be working really well. The 350EVO bar I took off weighs a freaking TON compared to the stock bar. Anyway, I obviously didn't need the sways to be as stiff as I had them with my 10kg/8kg spring rates
From what I understand, there's the schools of thought on suspension setup are something along the lines of:
-medium spring rates and aggressive shocks with stiff sway bars
or
-stiff springs, softer shock settings, and soft sway bars
or
-full out race car on smooth tracks with race tires, you can stiffen just about everything out, but it'd suck with traction on the street where the roads aren't perfectly smooth
03-01-2007, 09:03 AM
#296
Originally Posted by sentry65
just drove to work today and OMFG, the handling is night and day better. Before through a fast sweeping turn, it felt a little spooky or twitchy - possibly from my sway bars being too stiff for my spring rates for street driving
Backing off the sway bars and adding the SPL bushings, JIC rods (mainly for their bushings), and GT spec lateral bar (I had all the other bars already on before) have really changed things for the better. The powergrid front endlinks in combo with the stock sway bar seem to be working really well. The 350EVO bar I took off weighs a freaking TON compared to the stock bar. Anyway, I obviously didn't need the sways to be as stiff as I had them with my 10kg/8kg spring rates
From what I understand, there's the schools of thought on suspension setup are something along the lines of:
-medium spring rates and aggressive shocks with stiff sway bars
or
-stiff springs, softer shock settings, and soft sway bars
or
-full out race car on smooth tracks with race tires, you can stiffen just about everything out, but it'd suck with traction on the street where the roads aren't perfectly smooth
, the handling is night and day better. Before through a fast sweeping turn, it felt a little spooky or twitchy - possibly from my sway bars being too stiff for my spring rates for street drivingBacking off the sway bars and adding the SPL bushings, JIC rods (mainly for their bushings), and GT spec lateral bar (I had all the other bars already on before) have really changed things for the better. The powergrid front endlinks in combo with the stock sway bar seem to be working really well. The 350EVO bar I took off weighs a freaking TON compared to the stock bar. Anyway, I obviously didn't need the sways to be as stiff as I had them with my 10kg/8kg spring rates
From what I understand, there's the schools of thought on suspension setup are something along the lines of:
-medium spring rates and aggressive shocks with stiff sway bars
or
-stiff springs, softer shock settings, and soft sway bars
or
-full out race car on smooth tracks with race tires, you can stiffen just about everything out, but it'd suck with traction on the street where the roads aren't perfectly smooth
03-01-2007, 09:05 AM
#297
I'm using an AAM ECU flash for the timing map and a ballpark A/F, then a SAFCII to tune the fuel
it's not the ideal setup, and I really do think it's working fine for a supercharged car like mine, but my fuel pressure drop is ultimately causing things to not be consistent.
I'm considering the Fcon V-pro or waiting for the COBB Tuning ECU programming software when it's released. I'd have to drive to CA for the Fcon setup, and pray I never have an issue with it or needing to be retuned because it's an all day trip to CA. The COBB ECU programmer is going to sell for around $700 and the Fcon is $3000 as a special at GT Motorsports during the next 2 weeks, but I'd end up getting like $1000 worth of extras/install so it's $4k out of state vs $700 local...I really don't think my setup warrents a full out standalone at this point, but it never hurts to run one
it's not the ideal setup, and I really do think it's working fine for a supercharged car like mine, but my fuel pressure drop is ultimately causing things to not be consistent.
I'm considering the Fcon V-pro or waiting for the COBB Tuning ECU programming software when it's released. I'd have to drive to CA for the Fcon setup, and pray I never have an issue with it or needing to be retuned because it's an all day trip to CA. The COBB ECU programmer is going to sell for around $700 and the Fcon is $3000 as a special at GT Motorsports during the next 2 weeks, but I'd end up getting like $1000 worth of extras/install so it's $4k out of state vs $700 local...I really don't think my setup warrents a full out standalone at this point, but it never hurts to run one
Last edited by sentry65; 03-01-2007 at 09:12 AM.
03-08-2007, 09:15 AM
#299
I dunno, it's not at all convenient for me because it's out of my way. I had to take off from work in the middle of the afternoon twice to drop it off and pick it up
It's just an idler pulley I think. Maybe it turns the water pump, I don't know, but it's the one with the 4 bolts through it. I'm really not sure what else to say other than the diagrams I made up and the part number needed.
You can always try calling up the machine shop I used and ship the pulley to him with a check or something and see if he'd be willing to ship it back to you.
I'm still working on the part number of the belt I needed for my 2.87 pulley - sorry for the delay, as I know a few people have messaged me asking what it is. I don't have the packaging, but the number is on the belt itself. The problem is every time I shut off the car, the text is hidden and I can't see it because it's only on a small portion of it. My battery likes to go dead without driving it, so I don't want to start and stop it a bunch until the text is showing
If you took the part number of the GATES belt mentioned, any good store (napa, carquest, etc) should be able to find the exact same type of belt and find one that's shorter. It was around half an inch (12-13mm) shorter.
It's just an idler pulley I think. Maybe it turns the water pump, I don't know, but it's the one with the 4 bolts through it. I'm really not sure what else to say other than the diagrams I made up and the part number needed.
You can always try calling up the machine shop I used and ship the pulley to him with a check or something and see if he'd be willing to ship it back to you.
I'm still working on the part number of the belt I needed for my 2.87 pulley - sorry for the delay, as I know a few people have messaged me asking what it is. I don't have the packaging, but the number is on the belt itself. The problem is every time I shut off the car, the text is hidden and I can't see it because it's only on a small portion of it. My battery likes to go dead without driving it, so I don't want to start and stop it a bunch until the text is showing
If you took the part number of the GATES belt mentioned, any good store (napa, carquest, etc) should be able to find the exact same type of belt and find one that's shorter. It was around half an inch (12-13mm) shorter.
Last edited by sentry65; 03-08-2007 at 09:18 AM.
03-08-2007, 09:26 AM
#300
I see you have your belt setup differently than the one demostrated on the instructions... is it to limit the slippage? and with the new belt routing did you have to make any new modifications?
im installing my vortech friday and if there is a better belt routing that I can do witout any mods i rather do that.
im installing my vortech friday and if there is a better belt routing that I can do witout any mods i rather do that.