my vortech tuner kit install process thread
06-06-2006, 10:37 AM
#201
Good luck with everything I look forward to seeing some dyno numbers later...
BTW I doubt your centrifigul S/C in 6th gear from 50-70mph will outpull a 5.4L Roots (full boost always) S/C motor especially by 3 seconds but hey if you say so. I know Ive stated my opinion on this in another thread and I hope you dont take this as me arguing with you, Im respectfully disagreeing
edit-can you find out how much timing your running at/around redline? I know you said you wanted a conservative tuner Im curious to what a conservative S/C timing @ redline looks like. Thanks
BTW I doubt your centrifigul S/C in 6th gear from 50-70mph will outpull a 5.4L Roots (full boost always) S/C motor especially by 3 seconds but hey if you say so. I know Ive stated my opinion on this in another thread and I hope you dont take this as me arguing with you, Im respectfully disagreeing
edit-can you find out how much timing your running at/around redline? I know you said you wanted a conservative tuner Im curious to what a conservative S/C timing @ redline looks like. Thanks
06-06-2006, 10:54 AM
#202
thanks
i dunno, my car does 50-70 in 6th gear at right around 6 seconds - I guess if someone has a video camera they can tape it. I'm assuming it'll only be lower with the 2.87 pulley and 20ish more whp/tq between 2000-2800rpms . It does totally have everything to do with gearing as well as power output. I'm willing to bet that most 5.4L V8's with roots superchargers have very very tall gearing as their top gear to attempt to get good gas mileage
I'll try to remember to ask Rich what my exact timing is, if that's something he can find out. He's using the adjustment +/- map on my EU for timing so he might not know what the exact number is, only that he's pulling x amount of timing - that and my ECU flash has timing pulled also so it's kind messy
i dunno, my car does 50-70 in 6th gear at right around 6 seconds - I guess if someone has a video camera they can tape it. I'm assuming it'll only be lower with the 2.87 pulley and 20ish more whp/tq between 2000-2800rpms . It does totally have everything to do with gearing as well as power output. I'm willing to bet that most 5.4L V8's with roots superchargers have very very tall gearing as their top gear to attempt to get good gas mileage
I'll try to remember to ask Rich what my exact timing is, if that's something he can find out. He's using the adjustment +/- map on my EU for timing so he might not know what the exact number is, only that he's pulling x amount of timing - that and my ECU flash has timing pulled also so it's kind messy
06-06-2006, 11:46 AM
#204
yeah someone mentioned in that other thread that the stock Z does 50-70 in top gear in 8 seconds. I'm sure the 3.9 FD helps a lot but I bet all my other breathing mods, and pulley/flywheel, and then the vortech kicking in an additional something like 20whp/tq over that with the 3.12 pulley contribute to it as well.
for the hell of it I'll try it on my way home today with the 2.87 and see what the difference is. The stopwatch in the Z makes it really easy to time
for the hell of it I'll try it on my way home today with the 2.87 and see what the difference is. The stopwatch in the Z makes it really easy to time
06-06-2006, 09:30 PM
#206
got back from dynocomp and here's another long-winded post
everything was more or less a success with the exception of a couple things. But first thing first, I made 400whp and 343 tq on the dyno dynamics dyno so that's ballpark of 440whp and 378 tq on a dynojet. However there's more to the story than that.
I need.....BIGGER injectors than the 550's. The A/F starts leaning out just like it did when I had the 440's and 3.12 pulley. The other thing was that because I didn't have the water injection installed, Rich pulled some timing. Actually he pulled I think 5 degrees of timing on top of whatever the technosquare map pulled. If the A/F wasn't hitting 12.6 at redline and the water injection was installed, obviously we'd shoot for more power. I was running a lot of race gas roughly equal to 95 octane total. There was NO detonation ever. Something else that's interesting is I'm actually running about 9 lbs of boost in reality. It's odd, but Rich explained that my cams are probably opening up the airflow in the upper rpms enough that the boost pressure is able to exit the engine well enough to actually keep the boost from rising. It shoots up to 9psi at about 5800 and keeps it there to redline just gradually letting it down.
so the dynochart I'm posting isn't the FINAL chart and as usual there's some more steps to be taken. The blue is this time, the red is one of my last dynos. Rich wrote 11 psi on the dynochart cause the 2.87 pulley is supposed to be more or less a 11-12 psi pulley
There is also no belt slip. Jon's fix with the pulley works. He ended up just going with one pulley and it works just fine. There was a moment where the pulley did come off, and Jon redid it with a thicker 10mm bolt instead and it's been running perfectly ever since. I'm obviously going to keep an eye on it but so far so good.
There seems to be no hope for the fuel pressure dropping. It drops to roughly 35psi at redline. They tried changing the fuel pump, the FPR, messing with the O-ring, they even put some of the APS fuel system parts on and no matter what the PSI still rose up until mid rpms, then gradually dropped down to 35ish psi. Rich noted that of all the APS kits they've installed not ONE person ever had a fuel pressure gauge so who knows if how my car is reacting is actually how the APS cars act. Anyway the car was getting proper A/F before with the 3.12 pulley, but the 2.87 pushes it over the edge and I'm going to have to try 650 injectors next - crazy, but the A/F is good then at around 5600 it starts rising even with 50 points of fuel added up high. It's obviously an injector issue for it to do that. As I understand it, the fuel pressure doesn't really matter as long as it's reasonably ok and the A/F is good. The issue might improve with the 650 injectors. The rate of drop I think lessened with the 550's when I had the 3.12 pulley
Now for some possibly cool news. Modified Mag possibly wants to do an article on my car. Two guys came down twice and looked at it. The 2nd time I was there and the car was on the dyno. We all ran off a list of all the major things done to it. I guess they think my car is interesting cause it's not your typical setup. Rich was saying my car is one of the most modified cars they've ever done that wasn't one of their own shop cars
Also on my way home I did a new 50-70 run in 6th gear and the first time it was 5.89 sec, second time was 5.95 sec so
- as if that means anything though.
As a side note, I was talking a lot with Rich and he REALLY knows his stuff. All the talk about headlift issues basically can be explained with people using ARP studs and tightening them too much. Mainly you don't want to run the car hard with ARP studs when it's cold or it'll cause the heads to lift. The car has to be up to full operating temp - they're race type of parts. He thinks factory studs are actually probably the best thing for a street car. Also he doesn't think sleeves are the way to go for so many reasons I'm not even going to get into it. And also I will never get CP pistons when I build the engine. Their metal composition isn't the greatest and they tend to make a "one size fits all" vs some other companies like cosworth that make specific sizes. I don't remember half of it, but his explanations made so much sense and he has first hand experience with those issues that when I have an engine build, I'm going to see what he recommends. I'd also do 9.5 CR pistons when I build the engine. Anything less would probably lose a lot of power with the vortech
that's it for now.
I get my spoiler installed and painted along with my hood on monday. Then the next step is water injection, coolant temp gauge, and 650 injectors
and oh yeah, Jon did a GREAT job on the CAI for the vortech. It's perfect. I also had him put 5mm spacers on the rear and I love them - no more rubbing the shocks and looks more aggressive. He also tapped my SSV for an additional boost pressure reading and making it easier to get a reading from when dynoing. It also smoothed out the FPR reading a little since it now has it's own dedicated line. Rich made the comment that he loves the 350EVO shifter and how it almost feels like a sequencial shifter.
as far as driving the car, I'm trying to not rev above 6000 rpms even though with 95 octane it's reasonably safe to do here and there and don't go nuts. But driving it, well I'm a little nervous driving it. I know it sounds lame, but it actually gives me butterflies in my stomach driving it around. Oh yeah, and the SC is a little more audible now too. I'm really happy with how the car is turning out. It's so close to being "done" I think all the hard issues have been ironed out
my pirelli corsa rear tires will go on sometime in the next couple days - probably thursday morning. If I think they're THAT much better than my PS2's (which are ok, but I'm not super impressed with them), I'll get some matching tires for the front possibly
anyone want to buy some slightly used 550 injectors or a 3.12 pulley?
everything was more or less a success with the exception of a couple things. But first thing first, I made 400whp and 343 tq on the dyno dynamics dyno so that's ballpark of 440whp and 378 tq on a dynojet. However there's more to the story than that.
I need.....BIGGER injectors than the 550's. The A/F starts leaning out just like it did when I had the 440's and 3.12 pulley. The other thing was that because I didn't have the water injection installed, Rich pulled some timing. Actually he pulled I think 5 degrees of timing on top of whatever the technosquare map pulled. If the A/F wasn't hitting 12.6 at redline and the water injection was installed, obviously we'd shoot for more power. I was running a lot of race gas roughly equal to 95 octane total. There was NO detonation ever. Something else that's interesting is I'm actually running about 9 lbs of boost in reality. It's odd, but Rich explained that my cams are probably opening up the airflow in the upper rpms enough that the boost pressure is able to exit the engine well enough to actually keep the boost from rising. It shoots up to 9psi at about 5800 and keeps it there to redline just gradually letting it down.
so the dynochart I'm posting isn't the FINAL chart and as usual there's some more steps to be taken. The blue is this time, the red is one of my last dynos. Rich wrote 11 psi on the dynochart cause the 2.87 pulley is supposed to be more or less a 11-12 psi pulley
There is also no belt slip. Jon's fix with the pulley works. He ended up just going with one pulley and it works just fine. There was a moment where the pulley did come off, and Jon redid it with a thicker 10mm bolt instead and it's been running perfectly ever since. I'm obviously going to keep an eye on it but so far so good.
There seems to be no hope for the fuel pressure dropping. It drops to roughly 35psi at redline. They tried changing the fuel pump, the FPR, messing with the O-ring, they even put some of the APS fuel system parts on and no matter what the PSI still rose up until mid rpms, then gradually dropped down to 35ish psi. Rich noted that of all the APS kits they've installed not ONE person ever had a fuel pressure gauge so who knows if how my car is reacting is actually how the APS cars act. Anyway the car was getting proper A/F before with the 3.12 pulley, but the 2.87 pushes it over the edge and I'm going to have to try 650 injectors next - crazy, but the A/F is good then at around 5600 it starts rising even with 50 points of fuel added up high. It's obviously an injector issue for it to do that. As I understand it, the fuel pressure doesn't really matter as long as it's reasonably ok and the A/F is good. The issue might improve with the 650 injectors. The rate of drop I think lessened with the 550's when I had the 3.12 pulley
Now for some possibly cool news. Modified Mag possibly wants to do an article on my car. Two guys came down twice and looked at it. The 2nd time I was there and the car was on the dyno. We all ran off a list of all the major things done to it. I guess they think my car is interesting cause it's not your typical setup. Rich was saying my car is one of the most modified cars they've ever done that wasn't one of their own shop cars
Also on my way home I did a new 50-70 run in 6th gear and the first time it was 5.89 sec, second time was 5.95 sec so
- as if that means anything though.As a side note, I was talking a lot with Rich and he REALLY knows his stuff. All the talk about headlift issues basically can be explained with people using ARP studs and tightening them too much. Mainly you don't want to run the car hard with ARP studs when it's cold or it'll cause the heads to lift. The car has to be up to full operating temp - they're race type of parts. He thinks factory studs are actually probably the best thing for a street car. Also he doesn't think sleeves are the way to go for so many reasons I'm not even going to get into it. And also I will never get CP pistons when I build the engine. Their metal composition isn't the greatest and they tend to make a "one size fits all" vs some other companies like cosworth that make specific sizes. I don't remember half of it, but his explanations made so much sense and he has first hand experience with those issues that when I have an engine build, I'm going to see what he recommends. I'd also do 9.5 CR pistons when I build the engine. Anything less would probably lose a lot of power with the vortech
that's it for now.
I get my spoiler installed and painted along with my hood on monday. Then the next step is water injection, coolant temp gauge, and 650 injectors
and oh yeah, Jon did a GREAT job on the CAI for the vortech. It's perfect. I also had him put 5mm spacers on the rear and I love them - no more rubbing the shocks and looks more aggressive. He also tapped my SSV for an additional boost pressure reading and making it easier to get a reading from when dynoing. It also smoothed out the FPR reading a little since it now has it's own dedicated line. Rich made the comment that he loves the 350EVO shifter and how it almost feels like a sequencial shifter.
as far as driving the car, I'm trying to not rev above 6000 rpms even though with 95 octane it's reasonably safe to do here and there and don't go nuts. But driving it, well I'm a little nervous driving it. I know it sounds lame, but it actually gives me butterflies in my stomach driving it around. Oh yeah, and the SC is a little more audible now too. I'm really happy with how the car is turning out. It's so close to being "done" I think all the hard issues have been ironed out
my pirelli corsa rear tires will go on sometime in the next couple days - probably thursday morning. If I think they're THAT much better than my PS2's (which are ok, but I'm not super impressed with them), I'll get some matching tires for the front possibly
anyone want to buy some slightly used 550 injectors or a 3.12 pulley?
Last edited by sentry65; 06-06-2006 at 10:05 PM.
06-06-2006, 10:18 PM
#207
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WoW.... Sounds Great! Congrats man...
Is there anything else needed to support the 3.12 pulley? I don't think I am sending my ECU anywhere from your story earlier... Lol, so you got 440's and 550's to get rid of now?!?!?! This is costing you a pretty lil penny....
I appreciate your posts because it will definately help me once I get mine on and I start tweaking it. I want it to a tad more powerful than a stock Vortech set up but I don't want to get too crazy with this since it is my daily driver.
Thanks again and keep the posts coming!
Does your wife miss you? Lol, you are a posting Mo Foo!
Is there anything else needed to support the 3.12 pulley? I don't think I am sending my ECU anywhere from your story earlier... Lol, so you got 440's and 550's to get rid of now?!?!?! This is costing you a pretty lil penny....
I appreciate your posts because it will definately help me once I get mine on and I start tweaking it. I want it to a tad more powerful than a stock Vortech set up but I don't want to get too crazy with this since it is my daily driver.
Thanks again and keep the posts coming!
Does your wife miss you? Lol, you are a posting Mo Foo!
06-06-2006, 10:45 PM
#208
lol yeah my wife is glad the end is in sight, but she's awesome and loves the car.
Yeah it's overall kinda expensive. I guess you just get kinda numb to spending the money after awhile (lol this sounds bad - like an addict or something). It's stupid, but at this point I figure the interest on my house over the next 2-3 years will cover all this car modding stuff if I were to refinance in a few years. There's just nothing financially smart about modding a car no matter how you do it.
Actually a thought just occured to me, I might try upgrading to the stage 2 fuel kit for the CJM return kit. If anything it'll be more heavy duty at the least. Honestly it probably won't solve the fuel issues but it might be worth the shot
my 440's have been sold. I can't think of what else you'd need to support the 3.12 pulley - just big injectors and good flowing exhaust and something to tune it with - and fuel pump. Without cams the 440's would probably be fine, but at this point I'm tempted to recommend 550's just cause you never know and it sucks redoing them
oh yeah, something else. I'd still like to get an oil cooler with my setup, but Jon was thinking that without direct air flow going to it, it wouldn't really do a whole lot. Their STI even with a fan attached to the cooler didn't cool the oil much until they opened up a hole in the bumper to flow air to it, and the heat away from it. I'll have to think of something. So far I haven't gone a whole lot over 220 degrees on the street in the heat even with flooring it. This is something the G35 would probably be able to do better than the Z because of the side openings in the front bumper cover
Yeah it's overall kinda expensive. I guess you just get kinda numb to spending the money after awhile (lol this sounds bad - like an addict or something). It's stupid, but at this point I figure the interest on my house over the next 2-3 years will cover all this car modding stuff if I were to refinance in a few years. There's just nothing financially smart about modding a car no matter how you do it.
Actually a thought just occured to me, I might try upgrading to the stage 2 fuel kit for the CJM return kit. If anything it'll be more heavy duty at the least. Honestly it probably won't solve the fuel issues but it might be worth the shot
my 440's have been sold. I can't think of what else you'd need to support the 3.12 pulley - just big injectors and good flowing exhaust and something to tune it with - and fuel pump. Without cams the 440's would probably be fine, but at this point I'm tempted to recommend 550's just cause you never know and it sucks redoing them
oh yeah, something else. I'd still like to get an oil cooler with my setup, but Jon was thinking that without direct air flow going to it, it wouldn't really do a whole lot. Their STI even with a fan attached to the cooler didn't cool the oil much until they opened up a hole in the bumper to flow air to it, and the heat away from it. I'll have to think of something. So far I haven't gone a whole lot over 220 degrees on the street in the heat even with flooring it. This is something the G35 would probably be able to do better than the Z because of the side openings in the front bumper cover
Last edited by sentry65; 06-06-2006 at 11:06 PM.
06-07-2006, 04:19 AM
#209
Congrats, nice #'s. Wouldnt the dropping fuel pressure cause your injectors to not supply enough fuel thus leaning you out up top? Even if you richen up the fuel table Im assuming the injectors arent receiving enough FP to do what your asking of them. 550cc's should be more than enough for your set up, maybe a more knowledgable person can chime in on this issue. I dunno whats up with that issue but for as much as you've invested you may want to look into a fuel system and then call it a day. You'll have nice rising FP not dropping FP.
06-07-2006, 06:40 AM
#210
wow... I cant believe you are still having a fuel pressure problem after they replaced every mechanical part related to the fuel pressure!
the last thing i can think of: have they checked the seal at the thru-plug that replaces the stock regulator? if one of the orings there was leaking, it could cause a fuel pressure issue that is regardless of what regulator or any other component you are running.
the last thing i can think of: have they checked the seal at the thru-plug that replaces the stock regulator? if one of the orings there was leaking, it could cause a fuel pressure issue that is regardless of what regulator or any other component you are running.
06-07-2006, 07:05 AM
#211
Originally Posted by Alberto
Congrats, nice #'s. Wouldnt the dropping fuel pressure cause your injectors to not supply enough fuel thus leaning you out up top? Even if you richen up the fuel table Im assuming the injectors arent receiving enough FP to do what your asking of them. 550cc's should be more than enough for your set up, maybe a more knowledgable person can chime in on this issue. I dunno whats up with that issue but for as much as you've invested you may want to look into a fuel system and then call it a day. You'll have nice rising FP not dropping FP.
thanks,
I dunno, I have the CJM fuel return kit and everyone is just stumped. According to the people I've talked with, it doesn't work quite that way. Mainly it's to prevent the fuel pressure from getting so low that it starts to have an effect on your injectors. 35psi should be enough fuel pressure to be allow some fuel adjustment, but when more fuel is added with the computer nothing happens so we can only conclude the injectors are not big enough. Like before with the 3.12 pulley and 550 injectors, my A/F was great even though I was dropping down to 35-40psi at redline - and more fuel could be added and it would richen up. Still, it'd be nice to have the pressure be higher and not drop just so we all know it's working the way it should be
Charles, I'll ask Jon if they tried what you just suggested.
Rich was almost starting to wonder if the fuel pump was not strong enough, but that just doesn't seem like it could be right since people with 700whp I think are using that pump aren't they?
Last edited by sentry65; 06-07-2006 at 07:37 AM.
06-07-2006, 07:34 AM
#212
yea his situation is unique, he already has the return fuel system. they have swapped out the pump to make sure there is nothing wrong with the pump, they have swapped out the regulator to make sure its not the regulator... so the only things i could think of would be to check what i just mentioned for a pressure leak, and then I would also check the voltage at the fuel pump to make sure there isnt some kind of electrical problem.
06-07-2006, 07:37 AM
#213
Oh Im sorry I wasnt aware you had a fuel system. As boost goes up it should rise about 1psi FP for 1 psi of boost but Im sure you know that. Let us know what your shop finds when you hopefully get the issue resolved.
BTW-I did the 50-70 top gear test a few minutes ago, with a 155lb passenger and mostly flat road with the last portion being slightly uphill it took me 6.3X seconds...Ill do it again later by myself on flat road throughout.
BTW-I did the 50-70 top gear test a few minutes ago, with a 155lb passenger and mostly flat road with the last portion being slightly uphill it took me 6.3X seconds...Ill do it again later by myself on flat road throughout.
06-07-2006, 08:20 AM
#215
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I don't know too much about the FI world yet.... but, if all that was changed out and looked into, could this have something to do with the problems you have had w/ your ECU reflash from techno-square?
Just a thought.
Just a thought.
06-07-2006, 08:38 AM
#217
yeah the TS flash I think is good - it just has a base A/F and timing map. It ultimately gets overridden by the emanage ultimate anyway.
It really wasn't necessary to change the ECU flash, but I just felt more comfortable with a FI map as my base ECU map instead of a aggressive NA map with not enough fuel and really aggresssive timing as the base map
It really wasn't necessary to change the ECU flash, but I just felt more comfortable with a FI map as my base ECU map instead of a aggressive NA map with not enough fuel and really aggresssive timing as the base map
06-10-2006, 06:38 PM
#218
traction is no longer an issue whatsoever. I got my 295/35/18 pirelli corsas installed in the rear today. These things only weigh 27 lbs
I've never driven a car with competition tires and only being on the rear (for now) is hard to gauge anything especially since I haven't done anything crazy with cornering yet out on the street, but they feel stable and give the car a feeling of confidence.
But the main thing is I can redline 1st gear with no loss of grip, still have good (really good) handling, these tires will last at least twice as long as drag radials if not 3-4 times as long from the people I've talked with and reviews I've read, and they're 2 lbs lighter each than my PS2's which were already light as hell. To bad they're discontinued...
word of warning, if you have spacers don't go in to Discount Tire. They'll try to tell you how unsafe they are and that they're not going to install your tires with them. Even if you have hub centric 5mm H&R spacers that people race with on the track all the time. I'm also using the stronger and longer hub bolts that come with the spacers. Finally I got the guy to let it slide this one time, but still lame.
I've never driven a car with competition tires and only being on the rear (for now) is hard to gauge anything especially since I haven't done anything crazy with cornering yet out on the street, but they feel stable and give the car a feeling of confidence.
But the main thing is I can redline 1st gear with no loss of grip, still have good (really good) handling, these tires will last at least twice as long as drag radials if not 3-4 times as long from the people I've talked with and reviews I've read, and they're 2 lbs lighter each than my PS2's which were already light as hell. To bad they're discontinued...
word of warning, if you have spacers don't go in to Discount Tire. They'll try to tell you how unsafe they are and that they're not going to install your tires with them. Even if you have hub centric 5mm H&R spacers that people race with on the track all the time. I'm also using the stronger and longer hub bolts that come with the spacers. Finally I got the guy to let it slide this one time, but still lame.
Last edited by sentry65; 06-10-2006 at 06:55 PM.
06-10-2006, 07:40 PM
#219
Sentry
You should easily have enough fuel with the 550's . I had my fuel preasure set pretty low [ cant remember psi ] low 40's . and I started to run lean . We set the preasure up to 48 psi with the vacuum line off and it richened up and we had to retune the fuel map . That was at 420whp
You should easily have enough fuel with the 550's . I had my fuel preasure set pretty low [ cant remember psi ] low 40's . and I started to run lean . We set the preasure up to 48 psi with the vacuum line off and it richened up and we had to retune the fuel map . That was at 420whp
06-10-2006, 09:27 PM
#220
yeah I dunno, we messed with the fuel pressure, but i'm losing pressure as the boost increases.
no one knows why my fuel system isn't working the way it should. Charles had a few other ideas to check and I'll have those looked into.
no one knows why my fuel system isn't working the way it should. Charles had a few other ideas to check and I'll have those looked into.