k3silk

iTrader: (12)

come on i know you have some info you want to PM me ":wong hun xun"

dscheers

iTrader: (3)

I think you're touching a very good poiint here. If it spins that much faster, it's going to create much more heat. Somehow that needs to be taken care of or you're going to see a lot of powerloss.

Danny

sentry65

iTrader: (11)

i'm willing to bet the rotrex can handle any extra heat and is designed for it. That actually makes me think its intake charge temps are going to be higher than on the vortech especially with a smaller intercooler.

Is the HKS louder than the vortech with spinning faster? Smaller faster fans are usually much louder than bigger slower fans that put out the same total CFM

Dr.G

I ve got Stillen, stage 4, they use the EAton blower that comes on mercedes benz, on jaguars, it is the most reliable blower of all. The setup is also well balanced and leak free since the supercharger sits on the engine. the disadvantage is that you need a new hood. The sound is great. Power wise a bit less power than Vortech 5hp but also more torque (according to Zmagazine SC shootout). my friend here just had his vortech and the power is very similar (expect 100-120 hp extra at the wheels). we did not try against each other , i'll tell you when we do. but his setup seems fine i like it but not as solid or heavy duty as Stillen.

dscheers

iTrader: (3)

Exactly, hence the powerloss... (and the risk on detonation)

Danny

sentry65

iTrader: (11)

Dr. G, do you have a dyno of your stage 4 stillen? I can't seem to find any stage 4 dynos of the stillen, just stages 1-3

sentry65

iTrader: (11)

I did an area under the curve % of a 323whp stillen stage 3 vs a 350whp, 400whp, and 450whp vortech

I reached my % by filling in the area under the hp and tq curves seperately with black, then the empty space with white. I ran that block of data thru an average function to give me a grayscale % number of how much black (or area) is in that sampled area

I'll attach the dyno charts I used - there is some slight error just from these being different cars on different dynos at different locations, temps, humidity, elevation etc, but ballpark-wise should be reasonably accurate.

The first picture just shows what I mean with the area filled in for stillen hp, tq, then 350whp vortech hp, tq, 400whp vortech hp, tq, 450whp vortech hp, tq

2nd picture is 323whp stillen stage 3 vs 400whp vortech
3rd picture is 323whp stillen stage 3 vs 450whp vortech
4th picture is 323whp stillen stage 3 vs 350whp vortech

some of those pictures I traced over and changed the color so you can see it better since most dynos show red and blue lines it starts getting hard to read with multiple dynos

Dynosheets don't ever plot out anything below 2000 rpms, but if it did and that data was factored in, the stillen would fair just ever so slightly better in some of the lower rpm percents





IMO people interested in going WOT should mostly pay attention to hp on these since hp takes tq and factors in engine rpm speed - hence why you shift up high near redline.

Torque is more useful for daily driving people to pay attention to since that's what gives you the oomph and good throttle response

then I averaged the numbers. People looking for a 50/50 mix of daily driving and WOT should maybe pay attention to that the most

2200-redline

323whp
stillen hp = 51%
stillen tq = 60%
avg = 55.5%


350whp
vortech hp = 52%
vortech tq = 60%
avg = 56%


400whp
vortech hp = 56%
vortech tq = 65%
avg = 60.5%


450whp
vortech hp = 67%
vortech tq = 75%
avg = 71%



2200-5500 rpms

323whp
stillen hp = 45%
stillen tq = 61%
avg = 53%

350whp
vortech hp = 45%
vortech tq = 58%
avg = 51.5%


400whp
vortech hp = 48%
vortech tq = 63%
avg = 55.5%

450whp
vortech hp = 58%
vortech tq = 73%
avg = 65.5%




2200-4000 rpms

323whp
stillen hp = 36%
stillen tq = 60%
avg = 48%

350whp
vortech hp = 33%
vortech tq = 53%
avg = 43%


400whp
vortech hp = 35%
vortech tq = 58%
avg = 46.5

450whp
vortech hp = 44%
vortech tq = 66%
avg = 55%




2200-3000 rpms

323whp
stillen hp = 31%
stillen tq = 59%
avg = 45%

350whp
vortech hp = 27%
vortech tq = 50%
avg = 38.5%


400whp
vortech hp = 29%
vortech tq = 55%
avg = 42%

450whp
vortech hp = 37%
vortech tq = 60%
avg = 48.5%





3500-5000 rpms (midrange)

323whp
stillen hp = 50%
stillen tq = 61%
avg = 55.5%

350whp
vortech hp = 51%
vortech tq = 62%
avg = 56.5%


400whp
vortech hp = 54%
vortech tq = 66%
avg = 60%

450whp
vortech hp = 65%
vortech tq = 78%
avg = 71.5%








4300-redline WOT range (gears 1-3)

323whp
stillen hp = 71%
stillen tq = 68%
avg = 69.5%

350whp
vortech hp = 75%
vortech tq = 73%
avg = 74%


400whp
vortech hp = 80%
vortech tq = 78%
avg = 79%

450whp
vortech hp = 88%
vortech tq = 87%
avg = 87.5%





5000-redline WOT range (gears 4-6)

323whp
stillen hp = 65%
stillen tq = 59%
avg = 62%

350whp
vortech hp = 71%
vortech tq = 65%
avg = 68%


400whp
vortech hp = 78%
vortech tq = 71%
avg = 74.5%

450whp
vortech hp = 90%
vortech tq = 82%
avg = 86%

Dr.G

nice study sentry 65 , i am glad you did it because i can even confirm it. i did not race my friends Vortech (who has probably similar hp since similar boost) because he is still braeking in his clutch. but we did step on it a bit while rolling at 5th gear with low rpm (2000-3000) , and my car was clearly more responsive and jumped ahead . when he is over his breaking in i'll tell you the result. I did not dyno yet because the dyno place next to me is crap.
i have to find another one. I run on 98 octane and stage 4 must give around 20-30 more hp than my previous stage 3 because it gives around 1psi more boost, anyways i felt clearly the difference and my 80-120Km/h 4th gear test improved by a consistant 0.2-03 sec . My estimates would be anywhere in the 350-360 whp range.

booger

iTrader: (6)

SHOW US ONE PERSON that has 400whp on a HKS...not with out going to a bigger custom blower set up

dscheers

iTrader: (3)

How do you come up with those numbers? Rule of thumb: 5 to 7% of base per added psi. Base of a Z is about 240hp, so 1 psi more would be like max. 17 HP more...

Danny

booger

iTrader: (6)

Your going off some thing that NinjaZ or maybe he Quoted you [ dont know ] said . The fact is , a 400whp Vortech might not leave the line as good as a Stillen or HKS , but both will be passed [ given equal drivers ] half way down the track . The Vortech will be in its power band when shifting gears . 1st gear and maybe half of second gear will be the only advantage the other two have over the 400whp Vortech

booger

iTrader: (6)

I agree with them numbers , and has proven to be correct any time I have added PSI to my set up . For a SC...it takes 14.7psi to double the WHP of a N/A car . Anyone showing dyno's to try to prove they made 20 to 40whp on 1 or 2 psi increase , are playing the dyno correction numbers game

I forgot to add that the 14.7psi to double the whp , is if only no other factors come into play . Like a restrictive exhaust , IC that is to small , and thing of that sort

Dr.G

the approximation is this: base power x(boost +14.7)/14.7
so with 7psi boost (if base is 240 ) you get 354 hp
with 8 psi you get 370+ so this is where your rule came from
i said approx 1psi , in fact it is more maybe 1.2 psi i could not measure it because my gauge is in bars and the differences in the subdivisions in the gauge are too close.
7psi is 0.476 bars and 8 psi 0.54, 8.2 psi is 0.55 so not much difference on the gauge

sentry65

iTrader: (11)

I don't know, but there's just so many factors with everything.

an open exhaust makes the psi go down, but the power increases. So for example is an open exhaust with 6psi better than a closed exhaust with 8psi? They're just different with usually trading off some low tq for more hp up high



as far as who is faster from one setup than another, there's just so many other things other than tq and hp numbers - yeah there's area under the curve, but what rpm range you drive in, what gearing, curb weight, rotational mass, ability for the rear springs to let the weight transfer to the rear, the weight distribution, traction, center of gravity, handling, driver skill, ability to launch, etc etc.

All of us have pretty decently fast cars as is

Dr.G

ure right

dscheers

iTrader: (3)

The rules comes from that formula filling in 1 psi as boost and expressing it as a percentage. 1 psi is MAX 6.8% or with 240Hp base you can get MAX 16.32HP more, that is the max. set by the law of nature. This 6.8% is in optimal conditions. With a SC you will loose power since the crank has to turn the SC faster Compressing the air will create more heat so that will also lead to a powerloss. Most of this powerloss will be offset by a lesser loss of power in the drivetrain and transmission but it will still be almost impossible to get optimal benefits.

Even 1.2psi more will create max. 20hp more, no way it will give 30hp more.

Danny

sentry65

iTrader: (11)

seems like the rule of thumb (ballpark) is that 1 psi of SC = 16 whp, while 1psi of turbo = 18whp on this car. The difference is the parasitic loss on the SC

I know it varies with exhaust setup though etc

DXB350Z

sorry if i missed this...but did vortech release their kit for the revup engines?

thanks

sentry65

iTrader: (11)

not yet

Lawn Dart

iTrader: (4)

http://www.importtuner.com/features/0508_it_350z/