copper o-ringed head gaskets
03-28-2006, 08:05 AM
#1
copper o-ringed head gaskets
well the programming is almost done for making the copper head gaskets. they will also come with stainless steel o-rings to further aid in cylinder sealing.
copper is used because of it's ability to conform to microscopic imperfections in the block and head surfaces. the gaskets are first enealed to aid in softening them to comform to these imperfections. this style of gasket is used in many race motors for it's ability to seal.
the o-ring is just that, a ring that gets sandwiched between the cylinder and the gasket to create a very high pressure seal. there needs to be a groove put around the top of the cylinder to accept the o-ring, but that task is very easy for most any good machine shop to do. these can be used with sleeves also and would be very highly recommended for any high hp effort.
different thicknesses can be offered also. cost is still up in the air abit, but it will very comparable to other aftermarket gaskets.
the current multi-layer ss gaskets are very nice, but the stainless cannot adapt to surface imperfections as effectively. plus if any piece of dirt or anything gets trapped between the layers upon assembly, sealing abilities will be seriously compromised.
my car is so bad now i can't boost past about 8-10psi before i leave a trail of water running down my fender from puking it out the overflow. the first set of these will be going into my own motor.
copper is used because of it's ability to conform to microscopic imperfections in the block and head surfaces. the gaskets are first enealed to aid in softening them to comform to these imperfections. this style of gasket is used in many race motors for it's ability to seal.
the o-ring is just that, a ring that gets sandwiched between the cylinder and the gasket to create a very high pressure seal. there needs to be a groove put around the top of the cylinder to accept the o-ring, but that task is very easy for most any good machine shop to do. these can be used with sleeves also and would be very highly recommended for any high hp effort.
different thicknesses can be offered also. cost is still up in the air abit, but it will very comparable to other aftermarket gaskets.
the current multi-layer ss gaskets are very nice, but the stainless cannot adapt to surface imperfections as effectively. plus if any piece of dirt or anything gets trapped between the layers upon assembly, sealing abilities will be seriously compromised.
my car is so bad now i can't boost past about 8-10psi before i leave a trail of water running down my fender from puking it out the overflow. the first set of these will be going into my own motor.
03-28-2006, 10:14 AM
#2
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Originally Posted by overZealous1
well the programming is almost done for making the copper head gaskets. they will also come with stainless steel o-rings to further aid in cylinder sealing.
copper is used because of it's ability to conform to microscopic imperfections in the block and head surfaces. the gaskets are first enealed to aid in softening them to comform to these imperfections. this style of gasket is used in many race motors for it's ability to seal.
the o-ring is just that, a ring that gets sandwiched between the cylinder and the gasket to create a very high pressure seal. there needs to be a groove put around the top of the cylinder to accept the o-ring, but that task is very easy for most any good machine shop to do. these can be used with sleeves also and would be very highly recommended for any high hp effort.
different thicknesses can be offered also. cost is still up in the air abit, but it will very comparable to other aftermarket gaskets.
the current multi-layer ss gaskets are very nice, but the stainless cannot adapt to surface imperfections as effectively. plus if any piece of dirt or anything gets trapped between the layers upon assembly, sealing abilities will be seriously compromised.
my car is so bad now i can't boost past about 8-10psi before i leave a trail of water running down my fender from puking it out the overflow. the first set of these will be going into my own motor.
copper is used because of it's ability to conform to microscopic imperfections in the block and head surfaces. the gaskets are first enealed to aid in softening them to comform to these imperfections. this style of gasket is used in many race motors for it's ability to seal.
the o-ring is just that, a ring that gets sandwiched between the cylinder and the gasket to create a very high pressure seal. there needs to be a groove put around the top of the cylinder to accept the o-ring, but that task is very easy for most any good machine shop to do. these can be used with sleeves also and would be very highly recommended for any high hp effort.
different thicknesses can be offered also. cost is still up in the air abit, but it will very comparable to other aftermarket gaskets.
the current multi-layer ss gaskets are very nice, but the stainless cannot adapt to surface imperfections as effectively. plus if any piece of dirt or anything gets trapped between the layers upon assembly, sealing abilities will be seriously compromised.
my car is so bad now i can't boost past about 8-10psi before i leave a trail of water running down my fender from puking it out the overflow. the first set of these will be going into my own motor.
03-28-2006, 03:46 PM
#5
Originally Posted by failsafe306
What whp are you at now Scott?
Also, are you going to be using 1/2 inch head studs this time around?
Also, are you going to be using 1/2 inch head studs this time around?
03-28-2006, 06:45 PM
#7
Scott, you're going to want to explore some better stud options for your engine. A copper or even a Cometic MLS headgasket isnt going to help, if the clamping force isnt there to keep the heads on the block. It's also important that your block and head mating surfaces are machined as smooth as possible. After seeing a lot of different engines...including mine, and talking to other shops, I am convinced that headlift, due to insufficient clamping force between the block and head, is the true problem, rather than cylinder wall distortion, or head gasket failure, per se. 
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03-28-2006, 07:17 PM
#9
nizmo1180 comes to mind with their vq35 block w/ 1/2" head studs already pre-done with the exception of a head that can accept 1/2" arp studs.. least that's a start but i'd be nice for some engine builders to offer a 1/2" head stud long block route in diff stages
Last edited by Juztin; 03-29-2006 at 09:26 AM.
03-28-2006, 07:31 PM
#11
Originally Posted by Sharif@Forged
Scott, you're going to want to explore some better stud options for your engine. A copper or even a Cometic MLS headgasket isnt going to help, if the clamping force isnt there to keep the heads on the block. It's also important that your block and head mating surfaces are machined as smooth as possible. After seeing a lot of different engines...including mine, and talking to other shops, I am convinced that headlift, due to insufficient clamping force between the block and head, is the true problem, rather than cylinder wall distortion, or head gasket failure, per se.
the trick is finding an already produced stud that can be adapted to the vq to keep costs down.
did you see any indications of the top of the bore moving? like the black material gone where it seals? i am afraid on mine that the first couple times mine let pressure through, some of this material got trapped in the gasket hurting the seal even worse. could be the carbon black stuff some are seeing in their overflow tank.
03-29-2006, 09:09 AM
#12
Originally Posted by overZealous1
did you see any indications of the top of the bore moving? like the black material gone where it seals? i am afraid on mine that the first couple times mine let pressure through, some of this material got trapped in the gasket hurting the seal even worse. could be the carbon black stuff some are seeing in their overflow tank.
There is one unname person with a Darton sleeved block, and standard 7/16th ARP studs trqed to 65ft/lbs, that has head lift issues as well, albeit at VERY high whp levels.
More clamping force is the key. Cometic recommends an RA of 50 of less, but I'd look to surface the block and heads to a minimum RA of 25. Smoother the better.
One last thing in regads to copper gaskets, and then I will shut up.
Unless the technology has changed in the past 6 months, you MUST retrq the studs....no question about it. Copper is very soft, and with one or two heat cycles, you have to retrq, or headgasket failure will be imminent.
03-29-2006, 09:25 AM
#13
since u mentioned the retorque - from what nizmo1180 mentioned regarding their 1/2" studs - to be retorqued the valvetrain does not have to come out. Which is pretty interesting - i'd like to see a picture of the 1/2" studs w/ the valvetrain all in place to get an idea of why they're different enough to warrant not doing that kinda nightmare of a job that needed to retorq the 7/16th studs. In a way it kinda seems like the cost payed for going 1/2" can possibly be recooped when it comes time to retorque
03-29-2006, 09:34 AM
#14
ya i have found some copper head gasket manufacturers that say no retorqueing is needed with their head gaskets. investigating the quality of copper they are using to help prevent the need for retorqueing.
luckily once the program is finished, any material could be cut on the machine.
luckily once the program is finished, any material could be cut on the machine.
03-29-2006, 09:34 AM
#15
Originally Posted by Juztin
since u mentioned the retorque - from what nizmo1180 mentioned regarding their 1/2" studs - to be retorqued the valvetrain does not have to come out. Which is pretty interesting - i'd like to see a picture of the 1/2" studs w/ the valvetrain all in place to get an idea of why they're different enough to warrant not doing that kinda nightmare of a job that needed to retorq the 7/16th studs. In a way it kinda seems like the cost payed for going 1/2" can possibly be recooped when it comes time to retorque
03-29-2006, 02:35 PM
#17
in a conversation with performance, they tested to 900hp on an engine dyno with sleeves, 1/2" studs, and stock head gasket, and kept blowing the radiator cap off!!!! that was the stop of development on their street motor from what the guy said.
so this head lift issue is going to be a serious hurtle to over come. too bad nissan made the block so short and didn't put more bolts to hold the heads down.
so this head lift issue is going to be a serious hurtle to over come. too bad nissan made the block so short and didn't put more bolts to hold the heads down.
03-29-2006, 03:51 PM
#20
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I'll blow out a gallon of coolant (distilled water plus additive) at 21 lbs of boost! It wasn't doing it at 17 lbs last week but I'm thinking it will probably go that direction!