The main reason the insert is helpful is because the insert is a larger diameter than the stud, so this increases the surface area grip of the insert, and then, in turn the stud threads into the insert, providing a better anchoring into the block when torqued to extreme levels...

the timesert is locked into place with an installation tool, this prevents it from backing out if one were to remove the studs

 

hahhaa, sorry to say bro, havn't ordered a single set. they are so readily available i don't need to. my defensive position comes from you (being offensive) misinforming other members that helicoils simply will not work, and this time-sert way is the only way you will ever get it to work.

you are seriously having a mental block with this. be open minded.

 

Damn it, I ran out of popcorn!

 

1/2 inch studs are nothing new, but OverZealous took the time to do the trq test, and developed a package of items, and is basically selling convenience to the customer. That's great, and I thank him for that.

I will say, and I am not trying to continue a debate on this...is that your product will be greatly improved, if you opt to include TimeSerts instead of helicoil. In fact, when you first spoke up the upgraded studs I only assumed you would use a timesert, rather than a helicoil. Yes, I am sure helicoil can work, but it is a generally accepted position in the industry, that a steel insert (TimeSert) is stronger and more durable than a helicoil. If anyone wants to do some googling on the topic, they will find the same thing. Since the cost difference is just a couple bucks more per insert, I hope you consider using them in the kits you sell.

 

ya actually i was googling right now looking for failures on either product. havn't found anything on either of them. i'm about 5 pages into each product now. both being used for head stud, and well every other fix you can think of that uses a bolt.

 

Google "helicoils vs timeserts". I found way more articles and opinions in favor of Timeserts, than of Helicoils.

Some of the things that I found most interesting were "load is better distributed with TimeSerts" and "Helicoils sometimes come out when you remove the stud".

Danny (not a specialist at all, just trying to use common sense)

 

dun dun dun..the saga continues..Scott, not trying to stir the ****...I'm sure we have pissed each other off a bit on the past couple of days, I am in favor of us working together instead of arguing..I only interjected at first to add my imput, didn't man to sound offensive (although looking back at what I wrote, I can easily see how it came across as such)...
Ultimately at the end of the day, we are all trying to do the same thing: develop/use stragedies that will provide a stronger/ longer lasting high powered vq35. So, sorry for how I came across, I don't mean any harm, actually, I want to get a set of your wastegate relocation dumps!

waiving the white flag,
-TODD

 

I haven't read any post that said they wouldn't work. The advise has been that a solid insert is a much better choice for an extreme application like this. A coil of formed wire is not going to be as strong as a solid insert and stacking helicoils is even worse. There are several designs of soild inserts on the market all of which would be better choice than a helicoil. The only time that a helicoil would be a better choice than a solid insert is when there isn't enough material to allow for the thicker cross section.

 

lol, my only point being, the helicoil did hold up to some crazy force. enough to deform the threads on the nut, leaving the block threads in 100% condition. again, it really does not matter to me which way someone wants to go. how about this, i will say the helicoils will work for people needing 10,000lbs pull out force, and time-serts will work for someone needing 10,050lbs of pull out force, hahhaa.

don't worry todd, i still like ya.

 

if the bottom tang is not broken off on the helicoil, it can happen. it is just improper installation.

also, on the doubling up thing, that is a procedure direct from helicoil.

 

So, it's basically the same principle as using a plastic screw-in type wall anchor with screw installed in the anchor to hold your picture frame up, as opposed to just installing a screw directly into the sheetrock

 

In the end thanks for posting your results. Its more then some have done. Nice to see someone posting R&D.

 

Helicoils are marketed as a thread repair device for the average thread repair solution not as a way to install stronger/larger studs in a high stress cylinder block. You use inserts in an aluminum block for two reasons.

1) To provide a more durable steel thread surface for assemblies that are reused.
2) To provide more contact area in the softer block material for anchoring a fastener (the thread O.D.is larger on a solid insert hence more strength).

Solid inserts do both better than helicoils on both counts but since your sold on the concept just sell your kit with helicoils and let the potential buyers sort it out. HaHaHa

 

SOUNDS LIKE BOTH OF YOU ARE CORRECT...But is either technique necessary for power levels that are useable?

Maybe you can take two equally built blocks in similar cars, same fuel, etc BUT different techniques and let them run. That is the only way we know things work. Build'em and try to break'em with a lot of data acquisition along the way. And then take what we learned and GO BACK TO THE DYNO for more punishment.

As mentioned before, we are making 800 WHP without sleeving, Helicoils or Solid Inserts. We keep dynoing and I keep racing the car trying to see if she will give. And I would bet I road race my G35C as much as anyone on these boards. If you don't believe me, go to CalSpeedway on May 23, 2006. I just returned from Willow Springs yesterday and Spring Mountain last weekend.

Still no blown head gaskets, oil, or massive overheating. But I am a fanatic to use High Octane when I know the motor will be stressed like on a road racecourse at 80 degrees in the deserts and 110 degree on the track.

FYI, my motor make 525 WHP at 11 PSI on 91 pump so I don't have to use high octane to be safe, I just do it to keep her cooler and FREE breathing...

NOTE: At I did overheat after running her last weekend at Spring Mountain while passing Ferraris and a GT40, and the heat was there yet not crazy dangerous. The only change I have had to do is increase the percentage of coolant to water in addition to AGAIN running race fuel when on the tracks or when I know I will be stressing the motor. After increasing the coolant percentage, She ran well again the same day and fantastic yesterday with NO Over-Heating.

Eventually it will happen, KABOOM, while we are still on a crazy quest to make and continually maintain 1000 Crank HP with a VQ.

BUT AS FOR USEABLE POWER LEVELS - I am damn sure these blocks, after a reliable build - Pauter Rods, Arias or Cp Pistons, Cams, etc..., can take as much power as the tires can lay down to the ground which is a clean 500 WHP/550 Torque. So any more power than this, you really can't use anyway, JUST FOR BRAGGING RIGHTS. Unless it is a drag specific car and that motor will only last so long. Look, we build cars that can’t make 1000 WHP like a Supra or Skyline, but please remember, that power is only at very high RPMs. I personally like, a car that has tremendous useable power between 3000-5500 RPMs. Not only above 6000k.

Just our observation. And if you aren't sure how much power that is in relation to other Super Cars, watch our videos. New one being edited NOW!
In my suggestions, test your techniques yourselves on the racetrack where the car is asked to do the craziest things (4-7000 RPM up and down) for 20-30 straight. Want to see heat generation; driving on the track will make the heat

 

Have you seen the heads lift on any of your cars thus far?

 

No, a little leak while we were doing a time trial for Sports Compact Magazine on Eagle1's G, yet that was the first time the car had ever been even on a road. Her maiden run was on Streets of Willow Raceway.

Now, I honestly think it is our conservative tuning that has helped us. Not that we are perfect. Hell, I blew up one of our customer's motors while racing her at CalSpeedway last year when I mis-shifted from 5th -2nd. It was an extremely hot day (90 degrees) and the owner insisted he used race fuel before I ran her and it turned out he didn't. Don't know if High Octane would have even worked when hitting 2nd gear at 130 MPH. LOL...

I replaced the motor of course!

Again, I believe you do not need any of these techniques to make a Solid 500 WHP/500 Torque.

Just my opinion.

M

 

gary, honestly man, i started to tear the threads on the nut. how strong would you like it to be? that is far beyond testing levels. you would not be able to even test the time-serts past this point. i can't believe how a conversation about putting threads into a block has gotten to this point. THIS IS A SIMPLE PROCESS


do ya have test results gary?

 

So you run 500/550 at the track..and the 800 figure is a few dyno pulls and periodically on the street? How long has this setup been working? I pushed my motor for close to a year before I saw any head lift issues...just wondering where you guys are at on that timeline?

Anxious to hear some more details on your setup (torque specs of your studs, timing advance, etc.)
Thx
TODD

 

My G35C's powerplant is relatively a new motor, only around 10k miles. Yet those are 10k of hard pounding track, street, and dyno miles!

However, we have been creating and racing big power motors with 500+WHP/500+ torque for almost 2 years and still no head-lift problems.

To address your questions, Not sure a public forum is an appropriate spot to discuss our exact motor build process including torque specs? Not to mention, considering we both have Companies that do Motor Building, kind of like giving the competition all your trade secrets?

Note: 800 WHP is un-drivable on the streets Safely so that is certainly a "Let's See What We Can Do," number. However, the 500 WHP is a daily driven and definitely track proven number that isn't kindly meaning I drive and race hard. "NO SALLY DRIVING FROM ME," LOL

BTW, What power Levels where you experiencing the Head Lift at Anyways?

400 WHP?
500 WHP?
600 WHP?
700 WHP?
800 WHP?

I am not discounting anything You or Scott are talking about at all. AT ALL! Just stating that at the consistant 500 WHP level, we haven't had any of these issues to speak of and we haven't been adding extra studs, sleeving, etc. Not that this won't happen, NOTHING IS GUARANTEED, just we just haven't experienced these problems as of yet. Perhaps when we do we will have to change the way we are doing things?

TUNING: I do believe how the car is tuned is the secret to keeping motors together! All the safety measures in the world don't mean anything when the car detonates! Our soft motor materials in the VQ35s can only hold so much heat before they begin to melt.

Goodluck.

M

 

We have also gone through this same problem on turbocharged Suzuki Hayabusa engines, which employ four 10mm bolts around each cylinder. HP up to 700 at the rear wheel has to date been accomplished from the 1300cc engine on a dyno but gasket problems are experienced well below that level.
One of the first attempts to solve it was a larger stud, which in this case only requires tapping out the block without any type of insert. That helps to a degree but court is still out on where you reach the point of diminishing returns in increasing stud diameter. The MLS gasket we use is coated with viton, which is its Achilles heel. Any lifting of the head blows the coating right off and as you would expect it occurs between the studs. After the coating is damaged it may only leak under boost but it will only get worse. As you increase the clamping force at the stud I expect at some point the clamping force between studs would actually decrease as the head begins to warp. At this point its all theory but a better gasket coating would sure help. The best solution would be adding more fasteners around the cylinder so the clamping force would be more equalized but the head design does not permit it. We also have gone to surface grinding the surfaces for reasons explained here -
http://tinyurl.com/bzn6q

It is also pretty well understood in the motorcycle ranks that if it detonates nothing is going to save it.