on 2 guys garage they put a rear mount turbo on a vette, work on a z?
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on 2 guys garage they put a rear mount turbo on a vette, work on a z?
i came in on the very tail end of the show, so i didnt get any of the details but from what i gather it makes pretty good power and its cheap. Just curious if any of you know the deal on the rear mount turbos, cost, ease of installation, and what kind of increase in hp you could get for a z? This might be right up my alley
well i saw this about a year ago on the same show. i thought the idea was pretty cool cause the turbo would be soooooooooooooo much cooler. as far as the lag goes we were thinking about it. there will always be the air in the pipe between turbo and the intake manifold. so as soon as the turbo pressurizes the tube, the air should be forced into the engine as soon as the turbo spools. you would probably lose a bit of psi by the time it reaches the engine.
we figured that the exhaust would work the same way and have pressure in it back to the turbo.
the problem with this setup is that the turbo sits right under the back of the car and would be easily stolen. you could climb right under and take it. not sure if this would happen but we thought about that also....
probably would be less need for a front mount intercooler also...
all just my opinions..
we figured that the exhaust would work the same way and have pressure in it back to the turbo.
the problem with this setup is that the turbo sits right under the back of the car and would be easily stolen. you could climb right under and take it. not sure if this would happen but we thought about that also....
probably would be less need for a front mount intercooler also...
all just my opinions..
Wow, we have thermodynamics pros here !
Heat = energy
Sooooo...
Less heat = less energy.
You want to run the turbo as hot as it can without melting.
14 feet of intake tubing makes a lot of losses in flow and pressure and tons of lag. Driveability will be horrible.
That system does make hp obiously. But its really getto IMO and not worth the trouble.
Heat = energy
Sooooo...
Less heat = less energy.
You want to run the turbo as hot as it can without melting.
14 feet of intake tubing makes a lot of losses in flow and pressure and tons of lag. Driveability will be horrible.
That system does make hp obiously. But its really getto IMO and not worth the trouble.
Originally Posted by Kolia
Wow, we have thermodynamics pros here !
Heat = energy
Sooooo...
Less heat = less energy.
You want to run the turbo as hot as it can without melting.
14 feet of intake tubing makes a lot of losses in flow and pressure and tons of lag. Driveability will be horrible.
That system does make hp obiously. But its really getto IMO and not worth the trouble.
Heat = energy
Sooooo...
Less heat = less energy.
You want to run the turbo as hot as it can without melting.
14 feet of intake tubing makes a lot of losses in flow and pressure and tons of lag. Driveability will be horrible.
That system does make hp obiously. But its really getto IMO and not worth the trouble.
Also, heat on the Intake Side is Bad, you want dense, cool air and you want it to stay that way. That is why most shops wrap the exhasut side of the turbo.
there have been threads on this.
on the Z, where would you fit that turbo so that it doesn't get destroyed or rust to bits? I'll take my more complicated in-engine setup.
Besides, those two guys garage shatheads endorse the freaking turbonator.
on the Z, where would you fit that turbo so that it doesn't get destroyed or rust to bits? I'll take my more complicated in-engine setup.
Besides, those two guys garage shatheads endorse the freaking turbonator.
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From: Sac
Originally Posted by sq40
Wouldn't the exhaust velocity be higher though?
Originally Posted by sq40
Also, heat on the Intake Side is Bad, you want dense, cool air and you want it to stay that way. That is why most shops wrap the exhasut side of the turbo.
The exhaust is wrapped to keep the exhaust gases heat IN the exhaust gases and maintain higher turbo speed. It does help keep the engine bay colder, but it doesn't affect the intake air that much. At the speed the air gets in, it's pretty much at ambient air temperature up to the compressor inlet.
You can wrap the intake to keep it cold (silicone hoses and such). But you'll get an intercooler to keep temps under control. The bigger the IC, the cooler the intake charge (good) but the more lag you get (not good).
did anyone seriously think that STS turbo sounded any good?
seriously man, it sounded like a turbo civic or something - the piping is so long that you lose any exhaust sound you used to have and all you hear is whistling turbos.
that commercial with the viper and vette - the viper IMO sounds way way meaner than bzzzzzzmmm BZZZZZMMMMMM
otherwise it'd be nice in terms of install and keeping the turbos cooler than having them in the engine bay.
seriously man, it sounded like a turbo civic or something - the piping is so long that you lose any exhaust sound you used to have and all you hear is whistling turbos.
that commercial with the viper and vette - the viper IMO sounds way way meaner than bzzzzzzmmm BZZZZZMMMMMM
otherwise it'd be nice in terms of install and keeping the turbos cooler than having them in the engine bay.
Last edited by sentry65; Apr 26, 2006 at 10:08 AM.
Uhh you actually get more power from cooling air then pressurizing it, as a turbocharger is 75-80% adiabtic process (Mr. Thermal guy :-P ).. As long as the mass airflow remains same, which it will regardless of temp, the turbine will spin up to the same RPM.
Intercooling is far more important and pressurizing. As long as the air remains cool, and is greater than 1 atmosphere, you will have a good increase in power. I only question the boost threshold of the entire system since there is a lot of piping. However, from my understanding, its the same amount of piping as under a hood, which sounds believable..
Intercooling is far more important and pressurizing. As long as the air remains cool, and is greater than 1 atmosphere, you will have a good increase in power. I only question the boost threshold of the entire system since there is a lot of piping. However, from my understanding, its the same amount of piping as under a hood, which sounds believable..
Originally Posted by plumpzz
Uhh you actually get more power from cooling air then pressurizing it, as a turbocharger is 75-80% adiabtic process (Mr. Thermal guy :-P ).. As long as the mass airflow remains same, which it will regardless of temp, the turbine will spin up to the same RPM.
Intercooling is far more important and pressurizing. As long as the air remains cool, and is greater than 1 atmosphere, you will have a good increase in power. I only question the boost threshold of the entire system since there is a lot of piping. However, from my understanding, its the same amount of piping as under a hood, which sounds believable..
Intercooling is far more important and pressurizing. As long as the air remains cool, and is greater than 1 atmosphere, you will have a good increase in power. I only question the boost threshold of the entire system since there is a lot of piping. However, from my understanding, its the same amount of piping as under a hood, which sounds believable..
And how adiabatic will be the 6 feet piping between the engine and the turbine ? This setup is basically running the exhaust gases in an intercooler before sending it to the turbo !
No, the turbine will not spool as fast with cool exhaust gases than hot ones. Exhaust gases velocity is what counts.
The whole thing does make power obviously. You do make some boost after all. But nothing like a proper close-to-the-engine setup.
edit: What's missing to comprehend the reason for running hotter gases through the turbo, is that the hot gases density is less than cool gases. Yet, the mass airflow is the same. This explain why the velocity of hot gas is higher. The turbine blades won't turn faster than the speed at wich the gas passes through it...
Intercooling is great, provided you need any...
Last edited by Kolia; Apr 26, 2006 at 11:34 AM.
With the turbo so far back, don't you get a lot of turbo lag?
No, our turbochargers are sized to operate at this remote location. Just like any turbocharger, once the turbo is up to temperature and in the rpm range for which it was designed to operate. The boost comes on hard and fast. All of our systems will produce full boost below 3000 rpm.
If you were to take a conventional turbo and place it at the rear, you would have lots of lag and consequently, our turbo wouldn't work properly if mounted up front
No, our turbochargers are sized to operate at this remote location. Just like any turbocharger, once the turbo is up to temperature and in the rpm range for which it was designed to operate. The boost comes on hard and fast. All of our systems will produce full boost below 3000 rpm.
If you were to take a conventional turbo and place it at the rear, you would have lots of lag and consequently, our turbo wouldn't work properly if mounted up front
Doesn't heat create the velocity in the exhaust gasses to spool the turbo?
No, heat doesn't create velocity. Heat creates volume. If you look at any of the physics laws for gasses, you will find that pressure and volume and heat are related. PV=NRT is a popular one, The V isn't for velocity, it is for Volume.
The turbine housing is what creates the velocity. The scrolling design that reduces the volume of the exhaust chamber as it scrolls around causes the gasses to have to increase in velocity and pressure to maintain the same flow rate.
Hotter gasses have more volume, thus requiring a higher A/R which in effect means that it starts at say 3" and scrolls down to approximately 1". Lower temperature gasses are denser and have less volume, so they require a lower A/R housing which would start at the same 3" volume, as the turbine housings use standard flanges, and scroll down to say 3/4".
Now if you were to reverse the housings in application, the conventional turbo would spool up extremely quick, at say around 1500 rpm but would cause too much backpressure at higher rpms because the higher volume of gas couldn't squeeze through the 3/4" hole without requiring a lot of pressure to force it through. On the reverse side, the remote mounted turbo with its cooler denser gasses, wouldn't spool up till say around 4000 rpms but once spooled up would make efficient power because it doesn't require hardly any backpressure to push the lower volume of gas through the larger 1" hole
No, heat doesn't create velocity. Heat creates volume. If you look at any of the physics laws for gasses, you will find that pressure and volume and heat are related. PV=NRT is a popular one, The V isn't for velocity, it is for Volume.
The turbine housing is what creates the velocity. The scrolling design that reduces the volume of the exhaust chamber as it scrolls around causes the gasses to have to increase in velocity and pressure to maintain the same flow rate.
Hotter gasses have more volume, thus requiring a higher A/R which in effect means that it starts at say 3" and scrolls down to approximately 1". Lower temperature gasses are denser and have less volume, so they require a lower A/R housing which would start at the same 3" volume, as the turbine housings use standard flanges, and scroll down to say 3/4".
Now if you were to reverse the housings in application, the conventional turbo would spool up extremely quick, at say around 1500 rpm but would cause too much backpressure at higher rpms because the higher volume of gas couldn't squeeze through the 3/4" hole without requiring a lot of pressure to force it through. On the reverse side, the remote mounted turbo with its cooler denser gasses, wouldn't spool up till say around 4000 rpms but once spooled up would make efficient power because it doesn't require hardly any backpressure to push the lower volume of gas through the larger 1" hole
^^ No one said that the V is for velocity.
The real question as to how fast the turbo spools up is this:
WHAT is the pressure drop before and after the turbine?
High T = high P before the turbo. Then you want low a pressure as possible (no backpressure) AFTER the turbo.
Conversely, if you mount a turbo at the tailpipe, you will have lower T = lower P = slower spool...
The real question as to how fast the turbo spools up is this:
WHAT is the pressure drop before and after the turbine?
High T = high P before the turbo. Then you want low a pressure as possible (no backpressure) AFTER the turbo.
Conversely, if you mount a turbo at the tailpipe, you will have lower T = lower P = slower spool...
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This has been the debate with STS every since they came out. And you scholars can debate the details all you want, all ll I know is that it works and works well. The fact that they are still in business and blowing peoples minds and conceptions with the "remote mount" system is more then enough for me. That and my friends turbo'd Camaro SS and Z06 that I have driven and experienced. The power is so sweet it's almost disgusting! They are doing a kit for the 350Z, it's on their website, and it will be out this summer I'm told.
I like how audiblemayhem keeps repeating that the remote turbo will give the same power ONCE THE TURBO GETS TO SPEED 
Thats great if the engine is on a test bench and being dynoed!
From the drivers stand point, the enemy of a turbo is LAG. Pretty much any turbo can blow enough air to grenade an engine. It just a question of how long you wait for it to happen. This is why boost is controlled by a waste gate...
So, eventually the remote turbo will make power. Then you shift, and start again to build your boost...
Thats great if the engine is on a test bench and being dynoed!
From the drivers stand point, the enemy of a turbo is LAG. Pretty much any turbo can blow enough air to grenade an engine. It just a question of how long you wait for it to happen. This is why boost is controlled by a waste gate...
So, eventually the remote turbo will make power. Then you shift, and start again to build your boost...