Mandated ethanol in fuel (in some places) - better for turbos?
Mandated ethanol in fuel (in some places) - better for turbos?
In some states, there is now a requirement for 10% ethanol/90% gas blend. This was happening here in Dallas, but i think supply of ethanol is limited, so they couldnt keep up. Without getting into politics or whether its feasible to maintain enough ethanol production long term, is this actually beneficial to turbocharged vehicles? Presumably, the ethanol will help decrease engine temps, and is more resistant to knocking (use of alcohol fuels pretty much requires high compression or turbocharging to be efficient - something that's not told the poor saps buying E85 vehicles with low compression engines, thus getting lower fuel economy). However, I don't know if they are blending inferior octane rated gasoline to still achieve an overall 93 rating at the pump. Has anyone had to retune their engine because of changes in fuel mixture? What were the results?
Just random musing on a Friday morning...
Just random musing on a Friday morning...
Last edited by polar; May 5, 2006 at 06:35 AM.
Originally Posted by polar
In some states, there is now a requirement for 10% ethanol/90% gas blend. This was happening here in Dallas, but i think supply of ethanol is limited, so they couldnt keep up. Without getting into politics or whether its feasible to maintain enough ethanol production long term, is this actually beneficial to turbocharged vehicles? Presumably, the ethanol will help decrease engine temps, and is more resistant to knocking (use of alcohol fuels pretty much requires high compression or turbocharging to be efficient - something that's not told the poor saps buying E85 vehicles with low compression engines, thus getting lower fuel economy). However, I don't know if they are blending inferior octane rated gasoline to still achieve an overall 93 rating at the pump. Has anyone had to retune their engine because of changes in fuel mixture? What were the results?
Just random musing on a Friday morning...
Just random musing on a Friday morning...
We get 87 octane with 10% ethanol for a 89 octane rating . One station in town has 91 with 10% ethanol for 93 . Most of the station either have 91 or 92 octane , for their highest grade
SGP says yes.
I work at an Infiniti dealer and after having so many customers call and ask if it was OK to put this through their engine we called in to check and Infiniti said that there COULD possibly be some break down of SOME of the materials that they use in the fuel system. So they really didn't say that it was good or bad...
I wouldn't worry about it... warranty right? Oh wait.. this is the FI section :P
I work at an Infiniti dealer and after having so many customers call and ask if it was OK to put this through their engine we called in to check and Infiniti said that there COULD possibly be some break down of SOME of the materials that they use in the fuel system. So they really didn't say that it was good or bad...
I wouldn't worry about it... warranty right? Oh wait.. this is the FI section :P
Pure Ethanol has an octane rating of 105-110.. theres a few Supra guys who have been running it daily. Heres an article from the mustang guys
Turbomustangs.com E85 Info / Dyno Test
By Trent Kendall 9-7-05
Turbomustangs.com along with Steve Cole Enterprises Inc (username: Karl Hungus) has completed some preliminary testing with the environmentally friendly, cheaper than 91 Octane, E85 fuel blend.
First off what is E85? E85, is a motor fuel blend of 85 percent ethanol and 15 percent gasoline to be used in flex-fuel vehicles. Ethanol is alcohol used in transportation fuels. It is a high-octane, liquid fuel, produced by the fermentation of plant sugars. In the United States, ethanol is typically produced from corn and other grain products, although in the future it may be economically produced from other biomass resources.
Benefits:
It has a motor octane rating of 104-108, it is also quite cold to the touch. It is currently about 1.99 per gallon, while 91 Octane is approximately 3.30 a gallon. E85 is cleaner burning, emitting a lot less greenhouse gasses. It is also a renewable resource. To top it off it is made 100% within the confines of the USA.
Cons:
It takes more of this fuel to create the same energy as regular gasoline. Therefore your car will use more fuel and you will see a decrease of approximately 10-15% in fuel economy. To make big horsepower you will need more fuel pump and more injector. Many people state that the fuel is corrosive and it could have adverse effects on aluminum fuel rails, injector o-rings and fuel lines. But so far in 9 months of testing we have seen no such side effects.
What do I need?
Opinions on this vary greatly. Speaking about high performance lower mileage cars you probably don't need to change anything. You definitely need a way to add a lot of fuel to your tune. We know that the Walbro 255lph in line pumps work with this fuel. Any Ford fuel injector seems to work fine. And so far steel braided hose works fine, we have no data on the aeroquip blue fuel hose. Generally speaking it would be nice to have teflon coated fuel lines and a fuel tank with a teflon liner, these are the types of mods that the factory does to newer flex fuel vehicles. It should also be noted that the ethanol will do a super cleansing job on your fuel tank and fuel lines and you should change your fuel filter probably within a week of using this fuel to avoid clogging other parts. Your lines and tank will have a lot of varnish on them from years of using regular gasoline, the ethanol removes all that varnish.
Test Car
1995 Mustang GT street car, 331 cubic inch, custom twin turbo system with twin T70 p-trims w/ .58 AR, T56 tranny, solid roller: 242/236, .600 lift, AEM Engine Management System.
Fuel System: 3, 255lph Walbro in line fuel pumps, 160# injectors. We were tuning with an AEM wideband system using a standard gasoline AFR. We weren't using lamda or other multipliers, just gasoline AFR.
No alky, no nitrous, no ice on the intake, etc.
For more info on the car go here.
The first thing we did was add 40% fuel to the fuel map under WOT. We also added about 20% fuel in part throttle areas. We were tuning using a regular gasoline wideband air fuel ratio of 14:1 at part throttle. On the dyno the car made the best and cleanest power at 12:1.
At 6 psi of boost and 35 degrees total timing the car made 575rwhp from 6000rpm until 7500rpm. The power never fell off. We tried less timing but the car didn’t respond well and the power curve was sloppier. At 13psi and about 29 degrees of timing we made 872rwhp. At 20psi and ~24 degrees of timing we made 989rwhp.
At 30 psi and 20 degrees of timing we ended up with 1066rwhp. The fuel injectors were at 75% duty cycle at this power level. Whereas with gasoline they were at about 55%. The fuel pressure was also slightly falling off at the top. The lack of a large power increase from 20-30psi is due to the tiny exhaust housings on this street car.
In total we made 16 dyno pulls and we never heard any detonation, but we did hit fuel cut a few times during testing. The next day the spark plugs were pulled and there may have been slight detonation in 2 of the cylinders because the porcelain was speckled. However the car still runs fine. This is definitely a very impressive fuel.
I also want to point out how impressed I am with this solid roller setup. Sure it is slightly noisier than my tiny hydro cam. But you can’t argue with that sick power curve. At all boost levels the car makes peak power at 6000rpm and holds it solid until 7500rpm, I am sure it would pull up to 8000rpm no problem. Steve has also tried a larger hydraulic cam to get the same results but it just didn’t work. The cam was a comp extreme energy hyd roller: 248 @ .050 on int and exh, 114 lsa. The car also had larger 74mm turbos at the time but the power would peak at 6500rpm and drop like a rock, even with expensive valve springs. With the new small solid roller cam the car even lugs along at 1500rpm no problem and idles fine at 900rpm.
By Trent Kendall 9-7-05
Turbomustangs.com along with Steve Cole Enterprises Inc (username: Karl Hungus) has completed some preliminary testing with the environmentally friendly, cheaper than 91 Octane, E85 fuel blend.
First off what is E85? E85, is a motor fuel blend of 85 percent ethanol and 15 percent gasoline to be used in flex-fuel vehicles. Ethanol is alcohol used in transportation fuels. It is a high-octane, liquid fuel, produced by the fermentation of plant sugars. In the United States, ethanol is typically produced from corn and other grain products, although in the future it may be economically produced from other biomass resources.
Benefits:
It has a motor octane rating of 104-108, it is also quite cold to the touch. It is currently about 1.99 per gallon, while 91 Octane is approximately 3.30 a gallon. E85 is cleaner burning, emitting a lot less greenhouse gasses. It is also a renewable resource. To top it off it is made 100% within the confines of the USA.
Cons:
It takes more of this fuel to create the same energy as regular gasoline. Therefore your car will use more fuel and you will see a decrease of approximately 10-15% in fuel economy. To make big horsepower you will need more fuel pump and more injector. Many people state that the fuel is corrosive and it could have adverse effects on aluminum fuel rails, injector o-rings and fuel lines. But so far in 9 months of testing we have seen no such side effects.
What do I need?
Opinions on this vary greatly. Speaking about high performance lower mileage cars you probably don't need to change anything. You definitely need a way to add a lot of fuel to your tune. We know that the Walbro 255lph in line pumps work with this fuel. Any Ford fuel injector seems to work fine. And so far steel braided hose works fine, we have no data on the aeroquip blue fuel hose. Generally speaking it would be nice to have teflon coated fuel lines and a fuel tank with a teflon liner, these are the types of mods that the factory does to newer flex fuel vehicles. It should also be noted that the ethanol will do a super cleansing job on your fuel tank and fuel lines and you should change your fuel filter probably within a week of using this fuel to avoid clogging other parts. Your lines and tank will have a lot of varnish on them from years of using regular gasoline, the ethanol removes all that varnish.
Test Car
1995 Mustang GT street car, 331 cubic inch, custom twin turbo system with twin T70 p-trims w/ .58 AR, T56 tranny, solid roller: 242/236, .600 lift, AEM Engine Management System.
Fuel System: 3, 255lph Walbro in line fuel pumps, 160# injectors. We were tuning with an AEM wideband system using a standard gasoline AFR. We weren't using lamda or other multipliers, just gasoline AFR.
No alky, no nitrous, no ice on the intake, etc.
For more info on the car go here.
The first thing we did was add 40% fuel to the fuel map under WOT. We also added about 20% fuel in part throttle areas. We were tuning using a regular gasoline wideband air fuel ratio of 14:1 at part throttle. On the dyno the car made the best and cleanest power at 12:1.
At 6 psi of boost and 35 degrees total timing the car made 575rwhp from 6000rpm until 7500rpm. The power never fell off. We tried less timing but the car didn’t respond well and the power curve was sloppier. At 13psi and about 29 degrees of timing we made 872rwhp. At 20psi and ~24 degrees of timing we made 989rwhp.
At 30 psi and 20 degrees of timing we ended up with 1066rwhp. The fuel injectors were at 75% duty cycle at this power level. Whereas with gasoline they were at about 55%. The fuel pressure was also slightly falling off at the top. The lack of a large power increase from 20-30psi is due to the tiny exhaust housings on this street car.
In total we made 16 dyno pulls and we never heard any detonation, but we did hit fuel cut a few times during testing. The next day the spark plugs were pulled and there may have been slight detonation in 2 of the cylinders because the porcelain was speckled. However the car still runs fine. This is definitely a very impressive fuel.
I also want to point out how impressed I am with this solid roller setup. Sure it is slightly noisier than my tiny hydro cam. But you can’t argue with that sick power curve. At all boost levels the car makes peak power at 6000rpm and holds it solid until 7500rpm, I am sure it would pull up to 8000rpm no problem. Steve has also tried a larger hydraulic cam to get the same results but it just didn’t work. The cam was a comp extreme energy hyd roller: 248 @ .050 on int and exh, 114 lsa. The car also had larger 74mm turbos at the time but the power would peak at 6500rpm and drop like a rock, even with expensive valve springs. With the new small solid roller cam the car even lugs along at 1500rpm no problem and idles fine at 900rpm.
I know some one in town here that had a G35 that he had planned on TT the car and doing this with out an intercooler . But the motor it self put a damper on his project . He said he would have to spend way to much money to get the motor to handle the power
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They recently went E10 here in Hawaii. It, for some reason, leaned out my car and the ECU has been trying to readjust. So basicly its been a tuning war to get the AF back to 12.5-13. I've been tinkering with it for the past 5 days trying to get it back to where it was. Any one have any ideas why it would schitz out like that, it's supposed to have the same Octane #'s.
Second why the hell is gas prices still higher when they are adding Ethenol? Your adding more total volume thus selling less actual gas but still they are charging high a$$ prices. It's $3.60 + some places here and we have our own refineries here on Oahu.
Second why the hell is gas prices still higher when they are adding Ethenol? Your adding more total volume thus selling less actual gas but still they are charging high a$$ prices. It's $3.60 + some places here and we have our own refineries here on Oahu.
Originally Posted by punish_her
Second why the hell is gas prices still higher when they are adding Ethenol? Your adding more total volume thus selling less actual gas but still they are charging high a$$ prices. It's $3.60 + some places here and we have our own refineries here on Oahu.
Originally Posted by BriGuyMax
You're running 12.5-13.0:1 AFRs on a forced induction Z???? That's just asking for trouble...
With the right timing and the right tune its perfectly safe. Had a 73 Chevy Cam. W/ Blower and Nitrous and I ran 13.5 on it. had 850WHP no problems. I was going throughhead gaskets though. That was my only big problem.
I was thinking the same thing.
Originally Posted by punish_her
With the right timing and the right tune its perfectly safe. Had a 73 Chevy Cam. W/ Blower and Nitrous and I ran 13.5 on it. had 850WHP no problems. I was going throughhead gaskets though. That was my only big problem.
On the other hand... I hope you'll keep us all posted on the outcome of your E10 fuel tuning. Might become very important information for our Z owners in the future.
Last edited by Havok_RLS2; May 13, 2006 at 02:38 AM.
Originally Posted by Havok_RLS2
You're probably the only person I've ever heard of that doesn't think this is a BIG problem that could lead to BIGGER Problems. Advise.... More Fuel.
On the other hand... I hope you'll keep us all posted on the outcome of your E10 fuel tuning. Might become very important information for our Z owners in the future.
On the other hand... I hope you'll keep us all posted on the outcome of your E10 fuel tuning. Might become very important information for our Z owners in the future.
No I did not think it was not a problem. Thats where chevy liked to run hard at. Ran it for several years then gave sold it to my dad because his race truck engine blew up.
I know its a problem for Z's because the ECU is a B!tch and keeps trying to mess with every thing. Every time I've tried adjusting with the Injector map on the EU I'm fighting with it for days. I noticed by scalling back on the Air flow adjustment map you have better results. So what I've seen; since ECU wants to keep changing the injector duty cycle, you trick it by adjusting the MAF voltage then it will adjust the duty cycle more reliably.
By no means am I saying leaner is better, but with the right tuning 12.5 is perfectly safe.
Originally Posted by punish_her
With the right timing and the right tune its perfectly safe. Had a 73 Chevy Cam. W/ Blower and Nitrous and I ran 13.5 on it. had 850WHP no problems. I was going throughhead gaskets though. That was my only big problem.
It probably doesn't detonate much if you pulled an assload of timing, but the more timing you pull the more heat you create, making it more susceptible to detonation. With a little bad fuel or cold ambient temps that lean the mixture out even more you can say bye bye to your motor. 12.5-13.0:1 is NOT safe for a piggybacked 350Z. You're walking a very thin line with a tune like that.
A VQ isn't an old iron block chevy motor.
Originally Posted by nissansource
To my understanding its really bad on the motor and eats at the motor. not to sure on details just the rumors ive heard about
Registered User
Joined: Aug 2005
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From: Missouri
Originally Posted by BriGuyMax
Total BS rumor.
By E10 I assume you mean 10% ethenol . Here in the Midwest we have had it for years [ around 15 ] and I ran it in my truck for 12 years . The truck still ran perfectly when I sold it earlier this year . E10 has always been cheaper to run [ normally $ .10 cheaper ] So most every one uses it . Ive ran it in my G35 several times [ 91 Octane with %10 ethenol to make 93 ] with no ill effects at all and no detonation at all . In fact it ran really well with it
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