New Video-G35 at Spring Mountain and Willow Springs
05-08-2006, 12:56 PM
#41
I guess everybody at the events you go to are nicer. I find that 80% of the time, they will try their damndest to get away from you before they wave you by, especially if they are in a high dollar car. I have had people ahead of me ignore the passing flag for laps until they got the black flag.
05-08-2006, 01:03 PM
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Originally Posted by 350ZNV
I guess everybody at the events you go to are nicer. I find that 80% of the time, they will try their damndest to get away from you before they wave you by, especially if they are in a high dollar car. I have had people ahead of me ignore the passing flag for laps until they got the black flag.
05-08-2006, 02:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Navygolf13
You would waive by cause you can't drive....
Oh yah, you will have Hoosier and me street tires...Might be a fair fight.
Built VRT Z VS SuperCar VRT G, My car with more WHP but your car with 400 less lbs. Lets turn your boost up and rumble...
Sounds fun.
M
05-08-2006, 03:31 PM
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I don't think we should stop talking about Cal Speedway. Michael, you know you will pass me cause I don't drive as fast as you. I do want to turn up the boost though and see what it does on the straight.....Can't wait.
05-08-2006, 03:48 PM
#48
Originally Posted by Eagle1
Actually, you can get closer than you might think, and not with going TT even. This might sound like heresy, and get me in hot water with somebody somewhere, but in most driving situations, and certainly on most tracks, what is going to make the difference in getting around fast more than anything else is 1) Driver skill, 2) handling modifications, and 3) increased horsepower and torque....IN THAT ORDER.
One of the things that is fun with this set up is being able to get out on the track and know that you legitimately BELONG out there with those beautiful cars from a performance standpoint. No way from a prestige or even beauty standpoint is anybody going to argue that the Giugiaro design of a Lambo or Pininfarina design on a Ferrari, etc. deserves to be mentioned in the same breath as a Z or G car. It just is another class all together, both in price and maintenance costs as well. BUT, for lots less dough you can get out there, side by side, and acquit oneself very respectably. Of course someone with a car as expensive as a supercar is going to be less likely to push it to the limits, and understandably so. So be circumspect on whether you are "beating" one of them just because you are faster on the track than they are. On a tight twisty track one is going to see the attributes of the Honda S2k and the Spec Miata step up to the forefront. Not tons of power there. But they sure do zip around. But where it is a flat out game of acceleration side by side, and from 90 to 135mph you pull hard on them......what more do you want, or needs to be said. You got it where it counts in that department.
So, please note what Mike is talking about. It is not "just" the power. Yes he has it in spades and it is fun to see it evidenced in raw form on a very fast track layout that plays to the strong suit of many of the supercars. But what is really setting it up is the suspension tune....the balance of coils, dampers, sways, wheels, tires and control arms, to take this car through the turns and deliver corner exit speeds of real merit...from which the car then launches its furious assault down the straight with the unleashing of that hp and torque. But without the ability to deliver fast corner entry, mid corner, and corner exit speeds, much of that power would be wasted. Without a driver that knows how to manage the adhesion and tire grip limits in those turns, it could not even be applied.
A non FI car with the right balance to its handling is going to scream through those turns at the same speeds as the FI car......and with good driver skills that will be faster than most other cars including some of the "supercars".
The differences in power down the straight will be noted in the favor of the supercars...but if you have the ability to come out of the turns at 5mph faster than they are, you will be very surprised at just how long a straight it takes for them to reacquire advantage. If you have good braking and corner entry technique, you can pick up time at the end of the straight as well. On shorter straights, the advantage of the big boy is neutralized, and in the twisty sections, you have the advantage. Watch the Spec Miata eat up the Viper on a twisty track or section, and that is an example that is now doctrine and not bewilderment, and you have the same lesson.
I think that what VRT is doing right here is that while the power is exhilharating and fun, it is the package and balance that does it. And you can get an amazing amount of performance upgrade without the TT, if you approach it right. And it can be done in discrete phases or steps, so you don't have to throw down $30k. Or even ship the car to El Cajon.
VRT is doing its own phased approach to this so that you can work your way up to TT, without messing up engine warranties and CARB certifications and other stuff, at least in the initial phases, or having to undo or redo mods from one phase to the next. And balance your step up to higher performance without destroying your daily driver civility needs, as you yourself define them. It's a pretty cool concept from guys that know how to take it to the extreme, yet understand that not everybody is a customer for taking their Z or G to the track with the ambition of going around like a lightening bolt.
And good drivers in NA versions of the VRT car with the full handling upgrade have been able to post laptimes on twisty circuits within a couple of seconds of the big boys on TT in VRT cars. Big Willow would be a different story, because the high hp ponies rule there. Same thing for say Road America, with its four substantial straight sections. But for the street, with say a spacer plenum and intake mods, and a good catback....you can grab another 20-25 hp if that matters, and be well over 300 hp, and that is a bunch to have on tap. However the handling mods......that is where it is at.
So, while it is true that the vid shows some awesome passing on high hp cars, bear in mind the G35 TT crawled up their license plate frames in the turns to cause them to give the point by in the straight, having proved the superior speed in the turns to give them no choice as gentlemen enthusiasts but to let him stroll by. THAT is important. You reduce the full on VRT car by the cost of the built motor and the turbo....and you get a heck of a lot of car. It is not cheap to do only the handling mods either, but it sure is more affordable or even a smart first couple of steps before getting in too deep.
Even if you can afford it, it may not be a smart thing to do to put in the full VRT package. In fact, it may not be a smart thing to do for them to sell it to you even if you can afford it and want it. Not every body who can have such a car, should have such a car. There is no rule that says you should have performance driving lessons before you can buy a car with 300+ horsepower....or 400....or 500...or 600...or 700..........but having that much on tap definitely should require some self discipline on the part of the driver. If there is no way to justify that much power in a street only application, and you are not going to take it to the track....you probably should not get it because it is just trouble waiting to happen.
The video is unbelievably sexy stuff, all the more so because it is real. But how it is real is important to understand. The car is not "better" than a so called supercar, they don't ever say that. It is what it is. That is very good, and very unique, in its approach as a daily driver with a harmonized balance of handling and power, from a basic platform that has the potential to deliver those returns. Nobody else is approaching mods to the G and Z platform quite the same way. Other folks sell parts. Or they sell power kits and tunes. But you don't see anybody else go out week after week and throw their cars as a complete power/handling package, into the race tracks with enthusiastic driver/owners and get all the feedback side by side with them and listen carefully to what goes on, and go back and keep refining and tweaking to make it right, and as good as they can get it. I like that. I like seeing the guys that built my car at the track driving and enjoying their cars, and asking about mine. I like their having an open mind to different configurations, to the point of even taking (with my permission) entire suspension configurations off my car and putting them on theirs to get a hard core comparison of performance to evaluate which aspects work better or worse. That way when they suggest something be done, it is because they know it works better because they tried it and they know. Tried it where it matters and shows.
Yes that car at Big Willow is fast. But the TT is only part of the story why.
YOUR CAR, with some careful prior reflection and attention to what you are doing and why, can become amazingly "faster" with a balanced mod program, for much less money than the total built motor TT variant of the VRT car.
Cheers.
One of the things that is fun with this set up is being able to get out on the track and know that you legitimately BELONG out there with those beautiful cars from a performance standpoint. No way from a prestige or even beauty standpoint is anybody going to argue that the Giugiaro design of a Lambo or Pininfarina design on a Ferrari, etc. deserves to be mentioned in the same breath as a Z or G car. It just is another class all together, both in price and maintenance costs as well. BUT, for lots less dough you can get out there, side by side, and acquit oneself very respectably. Of course someone with a car as expensive as a supercar is going to be less likely to push it to the limits, and understandably so. So be circumspect on whether you are "beating" one of them just because you are faster on the track than they are. On a tight twisty track one is going to see the attributes of the Honda S2k and the Spec Miata step up to the forefront. Not tons of power there. But they sure do zip around. But where it is a flat out game of acceleration side by side, and from 90 to 135mph you pull hard on them......what more do you want, or needs to be said. You got it where it counts in that department.
So, please note what Mike is talking about. It is not "just" the power. Yes he has it in spades and it is fun to see it evidenced in raw form on a very fast track layout that plays to the strong suit of many of the supercars. But what is really setting it up is the suspension tune....the balance of coils, dampers, sways, wheels, tires and control arms, to take this car through the turns and deliver corner exit speeds of real merit...from which the car then launches its furious assault down the straight with the unleashing of that hp and torque. But without the ability to deliver fast corner entry, mid corner, and corner exit speeds, much of that power would be wasted. Without a driver that knows how to manage the adhesion and tire grip limits in those turns, it could not even be applied.
A non FI car with the right balance to its handling is going to scream through those turns at the same speeds as the FI car......and with good driver skills that will be faster than most other cars including some of the "supercars".
The differences in power down the straight will be noted in the favor of the supercars...but if you have the ability to come out of the turns at 5mph faster than they are, you will be very surprised at just how long a straight it takes for them to reacquire advantage. If you have good braking and corner entry technique, you can pick up time at the end of the straight as well. On shorter straights, the advantage of the big boy is neutralized, and in the twisty sections, you have the advantage. Watch the Spec Miata eat up the Viper on a twisty track or section, and that is an example that is now doctrine and not bewilderment, and you have the same lesson.
I think that what VRT is doing right here is that while the power is exhilharating and fun, it is the package and balance that does it. And you can get an amazing amount of performance upgrade without the TT, if you approach it right. And it can be done in discrete phases or steps, so you don't have to throw down $30k. Or even ship the car to El Cajon.
VRT is doing its own phased approach to this so that you can work your way up to TT, without messing up engine warranties and CARB certifications and other stuff, at least in the initial phases, or having to undo or redo mods from one phase to the next. And balance your step up to higher performance without destroying your daily driver civility needs, as you yourself define them. It's a pretty cool concept from guys that know how to take it to the extreme, yet understand that not everybody is a customer for taking their Z or G to the track with the ambition of going around like a lightening bolt.
And good drivers in NA versions of the VRT car with the full handling upgrade have been able to post laptimes on twisty circuits within a couple of seconds of the big boys on TT in VRT cars. Big Willow would be a different story, because the high hp ponies rule there. Same thing for say Road America, with its four substantial straight sections. But for the street, with say a spacer plenum and intake mods, and a good catback....you can grab another 20-25 hp if that matters, and be well over 300 hp, and that is a bunch to have on tap. However the handling mods......that is where it is at.
So, while it is true that the vid shows some awesome passing on high hp cars, bear in mind the G35 TT crawled up their license plate frames in the turns to cause them to give the point by in the straight, having proved the superior speed in the turns to give them no choice as gentlemen enthusiasts but to let him stroll by. THAT is important. You reduce the full on VRT car by the cost of the built motor and the turbo....and you get a heck of a lot of car. It is not cheap to do only the handling mods either, but it sure is more affordable or even a smart first couple of steps before getting in too deep.
Even if you can afford it, it may not be a smart thing to do to put in the full VRT package. In fact, it may not be a smart thing to do for them to sell it to you even if you can afford it and want it. Not every body who can have such a car, should have such a car. There is no rule that says you should have performance driving lessons before you can buy a car with 300+ horsepower....or 400....or 500...or 600...or 700..........but having that much on tap definitely should require some self discipline on the part of the driver. If there is no way to justify that much power in a street only application, and you are not going to take it to the track....you probably should not get it because it is just trouble waiting to happen.
The video is unbelievably sexy stuff, all the more so because it is real. But how it is real is important to understand. The car is not "better" than a so called supercar, they don't ever say that. It is what it is. That is very good, and very unique, in its approach as a daily driver with a harmonized balance of handling and power, from a basic platform that has the potential to deliver those returns. Nobody else is approaching mods to the G and Z platform quite the same way. Other folks sell parts. Or they sell power kits and tunes. But you don't see anybody else go out week after week and throw their cars as a complete power/handling package, into the race tracks with enthusiastic driver/owners and get all the feedback side by side with them and listen carefully to what goes on, and go back and keep refining and tweaking to make it right, and as good as they can get it. I like that. I like seeing the guys that built my car at the track driving and enjoying their cars, and asking about mine. I like their having an open mind to different configurations, to the point of even taking (with my permission) entire suspension configurations off my car and putting them on theirs to get a hard core comparison of performance to evaluate which aspects work better or worse. That way when they suggest something be done, it is because they know it works better because they tried it and they know. Tried it where it matters and shows.
Yes that car at Big Willow is fast. But the TT is only part of the story why.
YOUR CAR, with some careful prior reflection and attention to what you are doing and why, can become amazingly "faster" with a balanced mod program, for much less money than the total built motor TT variant of the VRT car.
Cheers.
this is an awesome post and extremely true for track driving. It seems like usually most of the guys who show up at a track even with their $200k cars don't know how to drive so much. They think they're awesome in their bad *** car, but when they get to the track they can get passed by guys in stock-ish M3's, EVO's, vettes, etc because the drivers in them have dramatically more driver skill.
In every beginner class there's always some guy who thinks he's bad *** cause he owns a vette. And he's usually the only one to actually drive off the course in a cloud of dirt.
I honestly am not sure my driver skills would be able to safely handle a 500+whp TT going 10/10 on a road course for very long before one small mistake screws everything up. We all know you don't get to use all that power on the street very often unless you're some crazy street racer. You can always use that much power at the drag strip and get fast times if you run drag radials though
I still feel like the Z handles like a small cow compared to some of the more track oriented cars out there, but I like how well balanced it is and that I can drive it on the street and it doesn't do too bad at the track.
05-08-2006, 03:59 PM
#49
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Cool video but the music needs to be turned down, it takes a lil away from your quality. I think a more subtle volume would do wonders. I like the fact you dropped the rap. I like rap and hip hop but it does bring down your initial impression. I think you guys continue to rise to the occasion tho.
05-08-2006, 03:59 PM
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LOL!!!!! In best Yoda voice, "Thinks highly of himself, he does." Those kits are nasty but it just seems like everything you guys do should have an asterik next to it. 800whp thread shows a dyno with 760whp* 1000 crank hp if a 24% driveline loss* according to this quote "760 WHP (bout 1000 HP to the crank if you were reading about this in Road and Track)" "GT 40 and Ferrari kill" *Track Day not time trials or a real race. I have always valued Eagle1's opinion and he seems to be the only one in your "camp" that's calling it like it is. I just don't know why you guys think you get picked on when you repeatedly skew things in your favor???? Be it dynos, track days or just the way you talk about your projects.
Originally Posted by mraturbo
Built VRT Z VS SuperCar VRT G
05-08-2006, 04:04 PM
#51
I think we all chip in for Mike to bring Kelli down so he can run CS. And just in case that does not work, we still have the duct tape option for him.
Going on and on about how great it is to run the Roval, about how the track infield section is so much more interesting with the double apex hairpin and then the long run to the chicane and tight hairpin that leads to the infield straight flows much better that way, and then all that technical stuff about launching into the 11 degree banked NASCAR straight, the howling sound of the motor reverberating off the wall and through the open passenger side window......that is just going to upset him. Then how to balance the car before diving into the 14 degree banked turn at 135-150mph, the compression you feel against that bank and the wall rushing by your passenger side window....the acceleration from 145mph onto the back straight as you dive down from the bank into the exit apex.....then drifting to the right wall and getting it to almost 160 before you have to bring it down to under 60mph to make that compound turn pair of two ninety degree turns through the tire stacks.......it is enough to create shaking of the spine with the prospect of not getting to drive it. Have some compassion for the poor guy. Sitting up there with all the excitement of watching row after row of students line up and march across stage, shifting the weight from one bun to the other on a folding chair for three or four hours. The droning of some old guy about how they are going to go out there and change the world. Why would you want to do that to Mike? It will be tough enough when the videos come back about the day and he wonders how much better it would have been had only he been here to run his great car. All the Porsche guys recognizing his ride from Modified Magazine. So, let's just drop it and not dwell on what might have been, could have been and should have been.
It is well past time that the compassion, patience and sensitivity that graces all these threads was recognized as relevant to those who do not run their cars, even when they have a chance to, at great tracks. Because personal priorities lie in other places. That this is not the time or place to test a relationship over something like, driving with the Porsche Club on a fast track.
Let's cut some slack to the guy who has made a decision that is boldly different than the one that all the rest of us would make under similar circumstances.
Mike, you just go right ahead, buddy, because...we understand.
Sensitively yours,
Everyone Else.
Going on and on about how great it is to run the Roval, about how the track infield section is so much more interesting with the double apex hairpin and then the long run to the chicane and tight hairpin that leads to the infield straight flows much better that way, and then all that technical stuff about launching into the 11 degree banked NASCAR straight, the howling sound of the motor reverberating off the wall and through the open passenger side window......that is just going to upset him. Then how to balance the car before diving into the 14 degree banked turn at 135-150mph, the compression you feel against that bank and the wall rushing by your passenger side window....the acceleration from 145mph onto the back straight as you dive down from the bank into the exit apex.....then drifting to the right wall and getting it to almost 160 before you have to bring it down to under 60mph to make that compound turn pair of two ninety degree turns through the tire stacks.......it is enough to create shaking of the spine with the prospect of not getting to drive it. Have some compassion for the poor guy. Sitting up there with all the excitement of watching row after row of students line up and march across stage, shifting the weight from one bun to the other on a folding chair for three or four hours. The droning of some old guy about how they are going to go out there and change the world. Why would you want to do that to Mike? It will be tough enough when the videos come back about the day and he wonders how much better it would have been had only he been here to run his great car. All the Porsche guys recognizing his ride from Modified Magazine. So, let's just drop it and not dwell on what might have been, could have been and should have been.
It is well past time that the compassion, patience and sensitivity that graces all these threads was recognized as relevant to those who do not run their cars, even when they have a chance to, at great tracks. Because personal priorities lie in other places. That this is not the time or place to test a relationship over something like, driving with the Porsche Club on a fast track.
Let's cut some slack to the guy who has made a decision that is boldly different than the one that all the rest of us would make under similar circumstances.
Mike, you just go right ahead, buddy, because...we understand.
Sensitively yours,
Everyone Else.
05-08-2006, 06:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Eagle1
Mikey B, buddy, don't you know that is yet another use for Duct Tape?
The gentleman that is driving the gray VW Rabbit is Jerrod Lengsdin I think.
Here is a Channel 7 Eye on LA television bit from earlier this year that reviews SpeedVentures, and there is some footage and interview of him and his car:
http://wurthwines.com/WMS/Videos/Eye_on_LA_SV..wmv
The gentleman that is driving the gray VW Rabbit is Jerrod Lengsdin I think.
Here is a Channel 7 Eye on LA television bit from earlier this year that reviews SpeedVentures, and there is some footage and interview of him and his car:
http://wurthwines.com/WMS/Videos/Eye_on_LA_SV..wmv
Yep, its Jarod...he's a good friend of mine, he's also doing some pretty cool porting work with the vq45 heads for some of our motors (him and GT motorsports-2 options)
Just asking because he works with the owner of Speedventures, used to go out and race my Acura integra in Parump with Jerrod, he's hook me up with working the track for free laps
-those were the good ol daysJerrod is a very skilled driver, I'd love to see ANYONE up against him on the Streets of Willow, he was outperforming everyone when I was there..very impressive!
05-08-2006, 06:25 PM
#54
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Originally Posted by barthelb
Cool video but the music needs to be turned down, it takes a lil away from your quality. I think a more subtle volume would do wonders. I like the fact you dropped the rap. I like rap and hip hop but it does bring down your initial impression. I think you guys continue to rise to the occasion tho.
I will lower the volume and try to get uploaded for Quicktime and Windows. Didn't realize it was that loud.
Definitely appreciate your constructive criticism.
M
05-08-2006, 06:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Philthy
Wait, I think you guys are getting confused here - there's track events, race pratice events, and races...
The typical guy who goes to a track event wants no part of a 23 year old kid flying around the track in his 30K car... Heck, I would waive you buy too
The typical guy who goes to a track event wants no part of a 23 year old kid flying around the track in his 30K car... Heck, I would waive you buy too
05-10-2006, 12:34 AM
#56
Originally Posted by yoppie
Havent you ever been to any club racing? Of course when you are in a 200k dollar ferrari and a car has been riding your *** for a lap or so, its courtesy to wave the faster car by.
05-10-2006, 07:46 AM
#59
Originally Posted by Eagle1
Here is a link to a new short video of a Jim Wolf TT on the VQ35DE, built by VRT, running against Lamborghini, Ferrari, Ford GT 40, Viper, Corvette ZO6, Porsche turbo Carrera, and some other nice cars. These are from the last couple of weeks. I think you will get a reasonably good impression of the acceleration of the car in the 100mph+ range on the track that is what the car is really adept at, as well as the marvelous handling that coming out of Turn 9 at Big Willow....well if you have been there you know just what it means to have it! Perhaps the best part is that the suction cup mounts don't show in the frame anymore.....practice does help a little bit with this video stuff.
http://www.violentracing.com/videos/Spring_Willow.mov
http://www.violentracing.com/videos/Spring_Willow.mov
http://www.g-owners.com/article_imag...gs_Raceway.wmv
That was me in the 300, and my first time to Big Willow! I'm loving what you've done with the car, I've followed your updates on here from the start. I hope to "catch" you at Big Willow or Buttonwillow sometime this summer! Enjoy the ride! *thumbs up*
Scott
05-10-2006, 02:17 PM
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Originally Posted by scotts300
Eagle 1! Long time no see! We have BOTH built up the bottoms of our engines, and have yet to play with the exotics together! Remember this day?
http://www.g-owners.com/article_imag...gs_Raceway.wmv
That was me in the 300, and my first time to Big Willow! I'm loving what you've done with the car, I've followed your updates on here from the start. I hope to "catch" you at Big Willow or Buttonwillow sometime this summer! Enjoy the ride! *thumbs up*
Scott
http://www.g-owners.com/article_imag...gs_Raceway.wmv
That was me in the 300, and my first time to Big Willow! I'm loving what you've done with the car, I've followed your updates on here from the start. I hope to "catch" you at Big Willow or Buttonwillow sometime this summer! Enjoy the ride! *thumbs up*
Scott
What is your 300?
Note: Ed is currently in Japan as I understand it and not sure if he has any technology access. Sure he will respond soon.
M
Last edited by mraturbo; 05-13-2006 at 06:04 AM.