Best turbo kit out of Greddy/JWT/ and TN?
Originally Posted by More Power
The original post on this thread, by jtgli, was discussing which of the 3 turbo kits listed relating to info from AAM. And later people asked why no APS TT in the equation.?? Now a bit of this could be said of dealers in general. But AAM steers people away from APS TT and toward JWT TT in particular. Now it just so happens that AAM is not an APS dealer and AAM is a JWT dealer. Only a coincidence? It is just possible.... yes, just possible perhaps, that this business arrangement affects their advice. At least in part, because of a profits motive rather than entirely the best interest of the customer getting the best kit from a price, performance, and technical standpoint. Just something to consider along with everything else.
Yes, I have heard the arguments of JWT regarding running extra fuel pressure is a cure all for allowing you to run obviously the too small stock fuel injectors at 400 whp. Really good forced induction engine builders will tell you that is not the case. A really robust fuel system like APS running more fuel pressure, a fuel return system, and larger fuel injectors is the right way, the correct way to handle this from many technical standpoints. JWT did this not because they thought it was the BEST way to go technically speaking. They did this to hold down costs and undercut APS from a price standpoint and let the customer bear the increased safety risk of running too small fuel injectors and no fuel return. Why do you think the Z32TT had a fuel return from the factory and really good kits do as well? Even my waaaaay down market mitsu eclipse GSX turbo had a fuel return. Nissan and mitus would not have gone to the expense and just thrown them in there without good reason. Go cheap on the fuel system at your own peril.
Same thing with the CARB issue. It is in the best interests of JWT to leave out important parts of a good fuel system to hold down costs and get CARB certification from a marketing standpoint. Put them on a polygraph and have them relate their mantra that this is totally AOK from a technical safety standpoint for the customer vs. building in a really good fuel system and that polygraph will explode.
Yes, I have heard the arguments of JWT regarding running extra fuel pressure is a cure all for allowing you to run obviously the too small stock fuel injectors at 400 whp. Really good forced induction engine builders will tell you that is not the case. A really robust fuel system like APS running more fuel pressure, a fuel return system, and larger fuel injectors is the right way, the correct way to handle this from many technical standpoints. JWT did this not because they thought it was the BEST way to go technically speaking. They did this to hold down costs and undercut APS from a price standpoint and let the customer bear the increased safety risk of running too small fuel injectors and no fuel return. Why do you think the Z32TT had a fuel return from the factory and really good kits do as well? Even my waaaaay down market mitsu eclipse GSX turbo had a fuel return. Nissan and mitus would not have gone to the expense and just thrown them in there without good reason. Go cheap on the fuel system at your own peril.
Same thing with the CARB issue. It is in the best interests of JWT to leave out important parts of a good fuel system to hold down costs and get CARB certification from a marketing standpoint. Put them on a polygraph and have them relate their mantra that this is totally AOK from a technical safety standpoint for the customer vs. building in a really good fuel system and that polygraph will explode.
However in my opinion - APS is a fine kit. They use great turbos, Garrett’s and quality materials. I assume you are using APS.
However, A REALLY GOOD FUEL SYSTEM??? And JWT... Polygraph Test???
Please...
Perhaps you should think out of the box just for a second. The significance of the Air/Fuel Ratio is just that...A Ratio with best being in the mid 11's to mix air and fuel.
So if the JWT kit whether for a 400 WHP car non-built motor or on our super built motors and modified VRT/JWT 700-800 WHP cars have proper mid 11 Air/Fuel ratios, then you get what you get.
A proper fuel system that delivers proper fuel ratios whether you believe it is right or wrong, the RATIOS are correct day in and day out...Road and Track!
How should we know, cause for a year we have installed more JWT kits than others! The system works and is safe.
The Difference between APS and JWT kits is that the JWT uses an in tank boost fuel pressure regulator and APS doesn't. Simple. IT helps deliver the fuel pressure needed to deliver the proper mid 11 Air/Fuel ratios.
Have a nice day.
M
Last edited by mraturbo; Jun 21, 2006 at 05:40 PM.
Originally Posted by More Power
The original post on this thread, by jtgli, was discussing which of the 3 turbo kits listed relating to info from AAM. And later people asked why no APS TT in the equation.?? Now a bit of this could be said of dealers in general. But AAM steers people away from APS TT and toward JWT TT in particular. Now it just so happens that AAM is not an APS dealer and AAM is a JWT dealer. Only a coincidence? It is just possible.... yes, just possible perhaps, that this business arrangement affects their advice. At least in part, because of a profits motive rather than entirely the best interest of the customer getting the best kit from a price, performance, and technical standpoint. Just something to consider along with everything else.
Yes, I have heard the arguments of JWT regarding running extra fuel pressure is a cure all for allowing you to run obviously the too small stock fuel injectors at 400 whp. Really good forced induction engine builders will tell you that is not the case. A really robust fuel system like APS running more fuel pressure, a fuel return system, and larger fuel injectors is the right way, the correct way to handle this from many technical standpoints. JWT did this not because they thought it was the BEST way to go technically speaking. They did this to hold down costs and undercut APS from a price standpoint and let the customer bear the increased safety risk of running too small fuel injectors and no fuel return. Why do you think the Z32TT had a fuel return from the factory and really good kits do as well? Even my waaaaay down market mitsu eclipse GSX turbo had a fuel return. Nissan and mitus would not have gone to the expense and just thrown them in there without good reason. Go cheap on the fuel system at your own peril.
Same thing with the CARB issue. It is in the best interests of JWT to leave out important parts of a good fuel system to hold down costs and get CARB certification from a marketing standpoint. Put them on a polygraph and have them relate their mantra that this is totally AOK from a technical safety standpoint for the customer vs. building in a really good fuel system and that polygraph will explode.
Yes, I have heard the arguments of JWT regarding running extra fuel pressure is a cure all for allowing you to run obviously the too small stock fuel injectors at 400 whp. Really good forced induction engine builders will tell you that is not the case. A really robust fuel system like APS running more fuel pressure, a fuel return system, and larger fuel injectors is the right way, the correct way to handle this from many technical standpoints. JWT did this not because they thought it was the BEST way to go technically speaking. They did this to hold down costs and undercut APS from a price standpoint and let the customer bear the increased safety risk of running too small fuel injectors and no fuel return. Why do you think the Z32TT had a fuel return from the factory and really good kits do as well? Even my waaaaay down market mitsu eclipse GSX turbo had a fuel return. Nissan and mitus would not have gone to the expense and just thrown them in there without good reason. Go cheap on the fuel system at your own peril.
Same thing with the CARB issue. It is in the best interests of JWT to leave out important parts of a good fuel system to hold down costs and get CARB certification from a marketing standpoint. Put them on a polygraph and have them relate their mantra that this is totally AOK from a technical safety standpoint for the customer vs. building in a really good fuel system and that polygraph will explode.
While I will agree that running a fuel return system seems like the ony correct method I think we need to look at various angles here. First that is the most preferred method because until recently every car had one and thats just how things were done. But lets face it times have changed, technology and ideas have advanced. I have seen Jim Wolf's fuel system in person and talked at length with him about its design. Jim Wolf just happens to know a thing or two about cars and has been at this for quite some time now. Do you think the new Skyline is going to run a return fuel system? I doubt it. While I agree I would like to have one for the sole reason the more shops are accustomed to tuning with the use of that and with that aspect. But thats not to say that Jim Wolfs returnless fuel system doesn't work. Clearly it does as VRT has been using is extensively on the track.
o.O.. please keep the flirting to a minimum.. or take it to PM
Originally Posted by MIAPLAYA
While I will agree that running a fuel return system seems like the ony correct method I think we need to look at various angles here. First that is the most preferred method because until recently every car had one and thats just how things were done. But lets face it times have changed, technology and ideas have advanced. I have seen Jim Wolf's fuel system in person and talked at length with him about its design. Jim Wolf just happens to know a thing or two about cars and has been at this for quite some time now. Do you think the new Skyline is going to run a return fuel system? I doubt it. While I agree I would like to have one for the sole reason the more shops are accustomed to tuning with the use of that and with that aspect. But thats not to say that Jim Wolfs returnless fuel system doesn't work. Clearly it does as VRT has been using is extensively on the track.
ALL THAT MATTERS IS THE CARS...Whether they work...And someone can drive them safe and daily.
What else matters? Sure some will make more power than others, however, we are still all in the same boat, we love the cars, we want them faster, and we all want to avoid needless problems.
Safe is Safe...Regardless of how the system is designed.
M
Ok. So here is some food for thought. First, search for "blown motor". If you read all the threads about blown motors, including mine, most will say that cutting corners is not a good thing with any car let alone the Z when going FI. While it is true that a fuel return system and injectors are not needed, why not do it right?
Take a look at some of the threads and you will see that many of the people out there who do have blown motors do have all of the right things done to them. Excellent tuners (conservitive tunes often), fuel injectors, great engine management and a return system. Yet they still blow their motors. Simple reason, the VQ was not meant for FI. Plain and simple. For this reason I would say that 400whp is going to be the threashold for true reliability.
When I first got into the Z community, it seemed the 400whp was the gernade point. As time went on and tuners got better and more parts came out people such as GRD really started to push the envelope on horsepower with the stock block. Though a few have reached 500+whp on the stock block, I think it has been used by companies such as GRD to advertise and help shadow the truth. THE VQ WAS NOT BUILT FOR BOOST AND RELIABILITY IS AN ISSUE! Nothing against GRD because they are great and I have dealt with them. I just think that companies such as them are making new owners try grabbing a bit more than they really should horsepower wise.
Take a look at some of the threads and you will see that many of the people out there who do have blown motors do have all of the right things done to them. Excellent tuners (conservitive tunes often), fuel injectors, great engine management and a return system. Yet they still blow their motors. Simple reason, the VQ was not meant for FI. Plain and simple. For this reason I would say that 400whp is going to be the threashold for true reliability.
When I first got into the Z community, it seemed the 400whp was the gernade point. As time went on and tuners got better and more parts came out people such as GRD really started to push the envelope on horsepower with the stock block. Though a few have reached 500+whp on the stock block, I think it has been used by companies such as GRD to advertise and help shadow the truth. THE VQ WAS NOT BUILT FOR BOOST AND RELIABILITY IS AN ISSUE! Nothing against GRD because they are great and I have dealt with them. I just think that companies such as them are making new owners try grabbing a bit more than they really should horsepower wise.
very few, if not none, blew their motors with JWT kits installed, but that's because only a few people have JWT kits and most have the other alternatives
most have the other alternatives? Like what? Im really thinking of getting this kit. The more and more i read, the more i think this is the only way i would go F.I if i dont i think i will get some rims and call it a day and wait for the GTR but i would love to boost the 350z.
If you think about the number of JWT kits installed on stock motors as opposed to built its staggering. The vast majority of JWT kits are installed on built motors. Only a handful or on stock motors.
Originally Posted by MIAPLAYA
If you think about the number of JWT kits installed on stock motors as opposed to built its staggering. The vast majority of JWT kits are installed on built motors. Only a handful or on stock motors.
A good point is made here with the comment by Quamen. The point essentially is leading us to "how much power on a stock block can you safely run".
One of the weakest links appears to be the stock rods. It is a real question, but variability in the specs of the stock parts makes it an answer that is disparate.....some motors will take 400whp safely.............but there are plenty of examples of motors where they did not.
So what is safe? Candidly, I think it is less than 400whp. My tune was 360whp and with one degree of timing taken out on the high end, and one step colder plugs. I was rewarded with 23,000 miles of trouble free FI and lots of fun.
That is a big jump over stock rwhp. How much is enough? The answer is "there is never enough". If this motor took 400 safely, we would be whining that it did not take 450whp. If it took 450 we would be whining that it did not take 500whp. There is nothing wrong with this motor. There are simply limits to what you can jam down its stock throat before it breaks apart.
Be smart, live to tell about it.
Now, on the JWT units........let us be honest guys.....it is too soon to know. I have been running the petunias out of mine, as has Bonnani as has Mike A etc etc etc. So far no problems. But there will come a day when one of them has a failure. It is inevitable. But I dare say, it is much more likely to be an installation, maintenance or driver stupidity reason than a problem with the set up. The JWT set up if it had an inherent weakness or deficiency would have surfaced it by now with the incredibly aggressive use of it. There just is not another unit that I am aware of that is being consistently hammered with track days. Goodness gracious, fellas......every time I went to a track event this spring on a major track in California, there were a half dozen VRT tuned cars running JWT, and they were going like stink around the track tearing up the place. No failures. NO FAILURES. AT ANY EVENT. FOR SIX MONTHS. Yes, one of them is going to break one of these days. But, lads, with so many other units failing sooner, and horror stories of people blowing up within blocks of taking delivery of their cars on virtually every other unit out there......I put my money on Jim Wolf and Clark Steppler, especially when I put $30k of money down on the barrel head. You show me better today, I salute you. Right now, nobody can.
Back to Quamen. His point is dead on. Dial it down, don't be greedy on stock guts. Push it at your own risk. That is just good common sense.
One of the weakest links appears to be the stock rods. It is a real question, but variability in the specs of the stock parts makes it an answer that is disparate.....some motors will take 400whp safely.............but there are plenty of examples of motors where they did not.
So what is safe? Candidly, I think it is less than 400whp. My tune was 360whp and with one degree of timing taken out on the high end, and one step colder plugs. I was rewarded with 23,000 miles of trouble free FI and lots of fun.
That is a big jump over stock rwhp. How much is enough? The answer is "there is never enough". If this motor took 400 safely, we would be whining that it did not take 450whp. If it took 450 we would be whining that it did not take 500whp. There is nothing wrong with this motor. There are simply limits to what you can jam down its stock throat before it breaks apart.
Be smart, live to tell about it.
Now, on the JWT units........let us be honest guys.....it is too soon to know. I have been running the petunias out of mine, as has Bonnani as has Mike A etc etc etc. So far no problems. But there will come a day when one of them has a failure. It is inevitable. But I dare say, it is much more likely to be an installation, maintenance or driver stupidity reason than a problem with the set up. The JWT set up if it had an inherent weakness or deficiency would have surfaced it by now with the incredibly aggressive use of it. There just is not another unit that I am aware of that is being consistently hammered with track days. Goodness gracious, fellas......every time I went to a track event this spring on a major track in California, there were a half dozen VRT tuned cars running JWT, and they were going like stink around the track tearing up the place. No failures. NO FAILURES. AT ANY EVENT. FOR SIX MONTHS. Yes, one of them is going to break one of these days. But, lads, with so many other units failing sooner, and horror stories of people blowing up within blocks of taking delivery of their cars on virtually every other unit out there......I put my money on Jim Wolf and Clark Steppler, especially when I put $30k of money down on the barrel head. You show me better today, I salute you. Right now, nobody can.
Back to Quamen. His point is dead on. Dial it down, don't be greedy on stock guts. Push it at your own risk. That is just good common sense.
Originally Posted by Eagle1
How much is enough? The answer is "there is never enough". If this motor took 400 safely, we would be whining that it did not take 450whp. If it took 450 we would be whining that it did not take 500whp
Originally Posted by roneski
I think that's probably the best point that anyone has made in this entire thread.
Honestly!
As for the JWT and BLOWN MOTORS, I must admit I have blown a JWT motor, YET ON THE RACETRACK,
I was driving a customer's car, Dayton's Black G to be exact on Cal Speedway on a 100 degree plus day last year, racing the car with greedy boost WITHOUT RACEFUEL, and I MIS-SHIFT trying to pass a 500 WHP corvette.
OOOPS
From 5th to 2nd gear at 130 MPH. Ouch...
True Mechanical Breakdown.
So just wanted to CLARIFY...NOT QUITE A PERFECT RECORD yet their aren't any guarantees whether your tune in conservative on a Non_Built or aggressive on a built motor.
M
Last edited by mraturbo; Jun 23, 2006 at 08:43 AM.
Originally Posted by mraturbo
Note: We don't have any pro or cons to AAM for VRT hasn't dealt directly with AAM so I can't comment on your statements about them.
However in my opinion - APS is a fine kit. They use great turbos, Garrett’s and quality materials. I assume you are using APS.
However, A REALLY GOOD FUEL SYSTEM??? And JWT... Polygraph Test???
Please...
Perhaps you should think out of the box just for a second. The significance of the Air/Fuel Ratio is just that...A Ratio with best being in the mid 11's to mix air and fuel.
So if the JWT kit whether for a 400 WHP car non-built motor or on our super built motors and modified VRT/JWT 700-800 WHP cars have proper mid 11 Air/Fuel ratios, then you get what you get.
A proper fuel system that delivers proper fuel ratios whether you believe it is right or wrong, the RATIOS are correct day in and day out...Road and Track!
How should we know, cause for a year we have installed more JWT kits than others! The system works and is safe.
The Difference between APS and JWT kits is that the JWT uses an in tank boost fuel pressure regulator and APS doesn't. Simple. IT helps deliver the fuel pressure needed to deliver the proper mid 11 Air/Fuel ratios.
Have a nice day.
M
However in my opinion - APS is a fine kit. They use great turbos, Garrett’s and quality materials. I assume you are using APS.
However, A REALLY GOOD FUEL SYSTEM??? And JWT... Polygraph Test???
Please...
Perhaps you should think out of the box just for a second. The significance of the Air/Fuel Ratio is just that...A Ratio with best being in the mid 11's to mix air and fuel.
So if the JWT kit whether for a 400 WHP car non-built motor or on our super built motors and modified VRT/JWT 700-800 WHP cars have proper mid 11 Air/Fuel ratios, then you get what you get.
A proper fuel system that delivers proper fuel ratios whether you believe it is right or wrong, the RATIOS are correct day in and day out...Road and Track!
How should we know, cause for a year we have installed more JWT kits than others! The system works and is safe.
The Difference between APS and JWT kits is that the JWT uses an in tank boost fuel pressure regulator and APS doesn't. Simple. IT helps deliver the fuel pressure needed to deliver the proper mid 11 Air/Fuel ratios.
Have a nice day.
M
Originally Posted by More Power
The original post on this thread, by jtgli, was discussing which of the 3 turbo kits listed relating to info from AAM. And later people asked why no APS TT in the equation.?? Now a bit of this could be said of dealers in general. But AAM steers people away from APS TT and toward JWT TT in particular. Now it just so happens that AAM is not an APS dealer and AAM is a JWT dealer. Only a coincidence? It is just possible.... yes, just possible perhaps, that this business arrangement affects their advice. At least in part, because of a profits motive rather than entirely the best interest of the customer getting the best kit from a price, performance, and technical standpoint. Just something to consider along with everything else.
Yes, I have heard the arguments of JWT regarding running extra fuel pressure is a cure all for allowing you to run obviously the too small stock fuel injectors at 400 whp. Really good forced induction engine builders will tell you that is not the case. A really robust fuel system like APS running more fuel pressure, a fuel return system, and larger fuel injectors is the right way, the correct way to handle this from many technical standpoints. JWT did this not because they thought it was the BEST way to go technically speaking. They did this to hold down costs and undercut APS from a price standpoint and let the customer bear the increased safety risk of running too small fuel injectors and no fuel return. Why do you think the Z32TT had a fuel return from the factory and really good kits do as well? Even my waaaaay down market mitsu eclipse GSX turbo had a fuel return. Nissan and mitus would not have gone to the expense and just thrown them in there without good reason. Go cheap on the fuel system at your own peril.
Same thing with the CARB issue. It is in the best interests of JWT to leave out important parts of a good fuel system to hold down costs and get CARB certification from a marketing standpoint. Put them on a polygraph and have them relate their mantra that this is totally AOK from a technical safety standpoint for the customer vs. building in a really good fuel system and that polygraph will explode.
Yes, I have heard the arguments of JWT regarding running extra fuel pressure is a cure all for allowing you to run obviously the too small stock fuel injectors at 400 whp. Really good forced induction engine builders will tell you that is not the case. A really robust fuel system like APS running more fuel pressure, a fuel return system, and larger fuel injectors is the right way, the correct way to handle this from many technical standpoints. JWT did this not because they thought it was the BEST way to go technically speaking. They did this to hold down costs and undercut APS from a price standpoint and let the customer bear the increased safety risk of running too small fuel injectors and no fuel return. Why do you think the Z32TT had a fuel return from the factory and really good kits do as well? Even my waaaaay down market mitsu eclipse GSX turbo had a fuel return. Nissan and mitus would not have gone to the expense and just thrown them in there without good reason. Go cheap on the fuel system at your own peril.
Same thing with the CARB issue. It is in the best interests of JWT to leave out important parts of a good fuel system to hold down costs and get CARB certification from a marketing standpoint. Put them on a polygraph and have them relate their mantra that this is totally AOK from a technical safety standpoint for the customer vs. building in a really good fuel system and that polygraph will explode.
Carb cert is a driving factor for JWT is wasnt to undercut APS....come on. APS offers a tt tuner kit cheaper then the JWT. Are they also going to get strapped to the polygraph now?