HKS Vpro, do i need these to have a good tune?
06-30-2007, 02:50 PM
#21
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here is the setup im thinking about going with.. im just trying to figure out what sensors to get with the navigator.. probably EGT Fuel pressure and oil temp or maybe oil pressure.. not sure..
how big is the navigator would it fit custom inside my ash tray so i can just flip the ash tray down to monitor the $hit?
btw sam or george if your reading this.. this is how i would like my setup.
haha
how big is the navigator would it fit custom inside my ash tray so i can just flip the ash tray down to monitor the $hit?
btw sam or george if your reading this.. this is how i would like my setup.
haha
06-30-2007, 02:53 PM
#22
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Originally Posted by TENGAI
Nope... 
You need the knock amp in order to allow the F-Con to retard timing on the fly.
You need the knock amp in order to allow the F-Con to retard timing on the fly.Last edited by paranormal; 06-30-2007 at 03:12 PM.
08-05-2007, 10:42 AM
#29
Originally Posted by Sharif@Forged
The NTK sensor based Knock Amp is in a different league, vs. the Bosche based Innovate. And when the FCON is relying on a good accurate wideband signal, my first choice would be the Knock Amp. As a simple visual wideband gauge, the Innovate is fine.
The fact that it's NTK, does not guarantee AT ALL that your wideband display is accurate. The ONLY difference between the NTK and LSU4.2 is 1.5% better accuracy...now, it's not 1.5% higher or lower Lambda indication toward accuracy, but 1.5% of the true-to-indicated difference... which is truly a tiny amount. I.e. if the true is AFR is 12.0, and the Bosch indicated 12.1, the NTK is going to be 1.5% of the 0.1 = 0.0015 closer to the true 12.0, assuming of course you are using identical wideband controllers...
And this is where the difference is.
Look at the independent wideband shootout performed by the magazine .... https://my350z.com/forum/showthread....ideband+shoout
NTK's OWN wideband controller, the AFX, had the WORST accuracy.... This confirms without a doubt in my mind that the controller makes much more of a difference than the sensor itself.... the Innovate LM-1 can use the NTK sensor also, hence you can get the best of both worlds. But that unit is bulky, the LC-1 currently only supports the LSU4.2... And truly, for accuracy, nothing beats the Innovate.
To that end, Bosch's new LSU 4.9 used on the VW Toureg is THE TICKET! It's extrmely accurate, completely resistant to sulfur contamination (can be used on diesels), and it completely erases. I am planning to ask Klaus for some inside info on their plans to for integrating LSU4.9 support into the LC-1's we'll see what he says. Currently, the only one controllers that I know that can use it are the Motec PLM's or the Motec M400/600/800 series ECU themselves.
08-05-2007, 12:06 PM
#30
Gurgen, I am relying on my practical experience, having installed well over 30-40 of the innovate and about 10 of the AEM's. I can't recall a single NTK sensor go out. My experience on the dyno, using both Bosche and NTK sensors with our dyno lambda unit is consistent with that as well. We would replace Bosche sensors every 3 months, in contrast to the NTK's which has yet been replaced.
I am sure, if you compare the out of the box differences between bosche and NTK, you would find them very close. But longevity, and accuracy under practical usage is something that needs to be considered, in addition to the bench testing that many magazines have perfomed.
I am sure, if you compare the out of the box differences between bosche and NTK, you would find them very close. But longevity, and accuracy under practical usage is something that needs to be considered, in addition to the bench testing that many magazines have perfomed.
08-05-2007, 01:58 PM
#34
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Originally Posted by GurgenPB
Look at the independent wideband shootout performed by the magazine .... https://my350z.com/forum/showthread....ideband+shoout
Lets look at another forum's review of that same article.
http://www.efi101.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2477
Oh, and that forum is populated w/ some of the best tuners from around the world.
Cilff notes version:
The article is very bias and bogus.
FWIW
08-05-2007, 03:02 PM
#35
Originally Posted by f1james
yes you can hook them up simultaneuosly or no you cannot.
Last edited by Sharif@Forged; 08-05-2007 at 03:05 PM.
08-05-2007, 03:14 PM
#36
Originally Posted by Sharif@Forged
Gurgen, I am relying on my practical experience, having installed well over 30-40 of the innovate and about 10 of the AEM's. I can't recall a single NTK sensor go out. My experience on the dyno, using both Bosche and NTK sensors with our dyno lambda unit is consistent with that as well. We would replace Bosche sensors every 3 months, in contrast to the NTK's which has yet been replaced.
I am sure, if you compare the out of the box differences between bosche and NTK, you would find them very close. But longevity, and accuracy under practical usage is something that needs to be considered, in addition to the bench testing that many magazines have perfomed.
I am sure, if you compare the out of the box differences between bosche and NTK, you would find them very close. But longevity, and accuracy under practical usage is something that needs to be considered, in addition to the bench testing that many magazines have perfomed.
But i was just talking about accuracy, and making the point that the controller is the major determinant of accuracy and NOT the sensor itself. I want to make sure that that point is not missed, hence my comment... you KNOW it's not personal, I hope. As far as accuracy, I think the innovate can't be beat.
08-05-2007, 03:19 PM
#37
Originally Posted by UnderPressure
Lets look at another forum's review of that same article.
http://www.efi101.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2477
Oh, and that forum is populated w/ some of the best tuners from around the world.
Cilff notes version:
The article is very bias and bogus.
FWIW
http://www.efi101.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2477
Oh, and that forum is populated w/ some of the best tuners from around the world.
Cilff notes version:
The article is very bias and bogus.
FWIW
Yes the tuners are good, but NONE of them as per that thread have actually carried out accuracy exeriments, and the allegation of one was that Innovate was an advertiser in their magazine, and hence the data can't really be trusted. Also, they said that that would love to see the PLM included...
So, here is the real cliffs note:
1) How many have credibly disputed the accuracy of the innovate?
2) How can a simple allegation on a public forum by someone that is certainly not unbiased given that they, as all tuners, have favorites, refute an expensive, troublesome and objective experiment, not to mention the loss of credibility of that long-standing magazine.
So, which would a reasonable person would believe which?
08-05-2007, 04:31 PM
#38
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Perhaps you missed the part of that thread w/ both Ben (founder of EFI University) and Steve (Aussie Imports, Dyno Dynamics, Magnetti Marelli, support to numerous NHRA teams, Haltech USA, etc...) both questioned the validity and results of the testing procedure. Not to mention Steve hand calibrates every NTK sensor sold by Autronic and Dyno Dynamics.
Yup those are people who's opinion I'd give absolutely no weight to.
Look I've been party to working w/ the Innovate guys for years. Originally their stuff was good but recently quality control has gone to crap. Not to mention vendors aren't going to speak poorly about a product they can easily sell and have a decent margin on. Or course they know there are issues, but it's easy to look the other way when your pockets get fatter.
Yup those are people who's opinion I'd give absolutely no weight to.
Look I've been party to working w/ the Innovate guys for years. Originally their stuff was good but recently quality control has gone to crap. Not to mention vendors aren't going to speak poorly about a product they can easily sell and have a decent margin on. Or course they know there are issues, but it's easy to look the other way when your pockets get fatter.
08-05-2007, 08:44 PM
#39
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if i read this correctly then the HKS Knock amp's O2 sensor (which is an "accessory") is actually an NTK unit? the fact that the FCON actually looks after the knock through the Knock Amp is pretty sweet.
08-06-2007, 05:52 AM
#40
Originally Posted by GurgenPB
As far as accuracy, I think the innovate can't be beat.
