Hey everyone,

Haven't been on the forums in the last few weeks, and was told of these threads yesterday by a friend...so i'm here to chime in.

First...
E2 is heater circuit open error.... in this case either the sensor is bad or , more often, the wiring is subpar. I have said this before and I will say it again.... Innovate is a VERY high quality/sensitivity product, and requires descrete grounds for heater and system, JUST LIKE ANY OEM-designed SENSOR SETUP, ala the stock 350z sensors. All heater/system grounds are discrete and the inputs are differential (i.e. the voltage leads have their own grounds to compensate for ground offsets). THis is how the innovate is designed, hence the EVERY startup to make sure the sensor is healthy, unlike any other wideband controller.

So, if it finds an error, there is truly an error out there, or at least soem kind of inconsistency. Just because others (NGK-based systems) don't trip an error flag, doesn't mean they are workign properly. If you have a pump cell error/incosistency on the sensor, no other controller will pick it up, and continue to display the AFR like nothign is wrong, but of course, the AFR is off. LC-1 doesn't allow for this to happen..... if there are NO errors, AND if you have done a sensor calibration PROPERLY (more on this below), then your AFR indication is TRULY DEAD ON ACCURATE. Show me any other controller that can do this.


Also, and this is in their manual, ALL oxygen sensors are subject to placement as far as reliability is concerned. THey have to be above the horizontal plane (i.e. above the 3 and 9 o'clock positions). Second, the sensor crystals (ALL sensors) are very sensitive to moisture presence when they are powered on, i.e. that can damage them as the heater is coming on. Hence, it is recommended, and in fact implemented so in EVERY oem ECU (as well as the MoTeC), that the sensor be powered on 2-3 seconds AFTER engine start, so that the exhaust gases essentially blow off and displace this moisture from the sensor and the condensation from the inside the exhaust piping BEFORE the sensor heater (i.e. the sensor itself) is power on. This is the ideal way to go. Also, it's always good to place the after a bend on the pipe on the "inside" of the bend to keep away from the initial displacement of the pipe condensation....


[QUOTE-DanielW]ok at this point i think as many people as are having problems with these sensors INNOVATE should step up and do something about it. these aren't cheap units either. and none of them sound like they have any ridiculous amount of miles on them[/quote]

THey will and they always DO. Period! But, if you wiring and sensor placement methodology is wrong, then the replacement will not to any good.

That is definitely a calibration error. Calibrate the heater AND the sensor. You can do it by disconnecting the sensor from the LC-1, keying on the car for 10+ seconds with the sensor disconnected (this will reset the calibration data), and reconnect the sensor WHILE IT"S HANGING OUT OF THE EXHAUST IN FREE/AMBIENT AIR, and powering on teh car.....

Now, IF it resets itself again afterwords, then there is a heater open error, which resets the calibration automatically as well.

If the car has worked fine for a few weeks/days, and suddenly goes bad, then the sensor placement is poor, and the sensor gets a lot of moisture blown on it at startup as the heater is turnign on. All of this can be avoided by turning on the sensor after the car is turned on (but of course this will require further wiring with delay relays). However, it can be to an extent alleviated by good sensor placement (discussed above).

A few words on NTK sensors:

Will all due respect to my good friend Sharif, the conventional wizdom on NTK sensors is just plain wrong. NTK sensors only SEEM more reliable, but they are really not. let me explain. NTK sensors are built with 80's technology/manufacturing process. The crystal/core of any sensor is essentially like a microscopic version of a regular sponge or swiss cheese, if you will. The smaller the "holes" in the swiss cheese/sponge, the greater the surface area for detection of oxygen molecules, which is the very function of the sensor. THe NTK sensor's 'holes' ar emuch bigger then that of the much more modern/advanced Bosch LSU 4.2/4.9 sensors, whcih have much FINER pattern and hence a much greater surface area..... which is why they are so much FASTER and more responsive. I have heard people say that the NTK sensors won't go bad after runnign leaded fuel, or at least won't go bad nearly as quickly as the Bosch. Well, with my explanation of the core structures, you can see why. The lead oxides that form in the exhaust gases settle in the core, or the surface of these fine 'holes'. Once you go rich on the Afr, the lead oxide reduces to lead (Pb), with the oxygen dissociating, so you are now left with Lead metal that basically melts onto the surface of the cores and plugs up the 'holes'. Well, the problem is that the Bosch sensors (LSU 4.2's for example) having much finer 'holes' are much more easily plugged up then the NTK ones, so the NTK sensor core/crystal remains healthier..... BUT with the access of the oxygen to the core totally compromised (yet not completely "plugged up") it continues working WHILE GIVING FALSELY RICH MEASUREMENTS, since it's not sensing the true (greater) amoung of oxygen then is actualy present. So, yes, the NTK sensor has greater longevity when run in extreme conditions (even other than leaded fuels), but the reading are WAYYYYYY OFF, and the AFR is LEANER THAN ACTUAL.

So yes, the NTK sensors will last, but you engine WON'T.

Gotta run, hope this helps.

 

Oh jeez I hope I haven't jinxed myself by having read this thread My XD16 has been running very well now for 7 months ~8K miles. The sensor is mounted right at 9 o'clock and I wired it myself with good grounds for the LC1 and the display. I hope it keeps working fine for a while

Great post Gurgen!

 

Been awhile since I've looked, but I believe my sensor is at the 10 o'clock position. But is located right after a bend on the outside of the bend. So that's one thing. And from all the info you posted, that's about the problems I was having and might seem that the location of my sensor is the problem. Just sucks that they have to be so sensitive. But I guess it's worth it in the long run for a piece of mind of what the A/F ratio is running before things go boom.

Now you say to have it setup for the sensor to be powered 2-3 seconds after engine has been started? So could you give some examples of what it would have to be wired to, to have that happen?

 

what about the E8 error code?

 

Thanks! In most cases you will be fine and will NOT see a sudden-type of failure IF you do not have moisture/water blown onto the sensor while it's on. The position relative to the bend is relevant mostly if you don't have the sensor above the 9/3 o'clock positions. If you do, then it's not that big of an issue. BTW, I should mention that this 'bend' positioning theory may well be overexaggerated as I have not seen any official white papers from sensor manufacturers/oem's on the subject, and only read about it in form of expert opinions by some decent tuners. So, it may be nothing. But, it's certainly NOT an issue IF you set-up to start the sensor a a FEW seconds AFTER engine start, as any moisture that may be on the sensor/core will have been cleared. That's y understanding.

 

So what do you recommend on wiring it to without an relay in order for this to happen?

 

I understand your point on the more involved nature of the installation and the care to be taken. But, it is TRULY outweighed by the piece of mind of TRUSTING what you see and not being blissfully ignorant of the readings and hoping for the best. Innovate's diagnostics is what makes that happen, and, the number 1 reason, RELIABLE FREE AIR CALIBRATION.

As on the delay method of starting it on... here a a few suggestions.

Power the LC-1 off a relay that is activated by the OIL pressure switch. It's easy, as it's a single wire, but there are TWO problems with this approach. 1) it only provides less than a second of air flow throug the exhaust to clear the condensation in the sensor, and 2) will only work on the G35 that has a simple oil pressure switch rather than a gauge, as the switches to ground (or power, don't remember) when OP is above 4psi.

The best way is to use the OP switch in combination with the relay , as it will give an indication of when the engine is ON, not just hte ign switch.

I will try to come up with a schematic using an actual delay relay and the oil pressure switch....

Gotta run.... MoTeC is keeping my weekend busy again....

 

E8?

 

Sensor timing error. Typically a bad sensor.