no worries man.. sorry if i sounded like i was "going at you" in previous posts... not my intention

 

First off, we never want anyone to have to go through something like this, and we take every precaution on our end to prevent such an issue. Don, I hope this is resolved quickly and fairly for you and for all of the parties involved, and would encourage you to contact me in the future, rather than starting a thread, that is the proper way to handle an issue such as this.

Let me explain some of the history here, since this is all now a public affair.

HISTORY:
Sam called me a few weeks ago, told me that he has Don's car there, cylinder #1 is not holding compression, and he suspects the valve job machining was done improperly. He told me that he was very neutral in what he had explained to Don, as he hadn’t yet opened the engine up. I suggested that he ship me the engine, we inspect it, if we found an issue, would fix it 100%, so that Don would not have to pay the GTM price and so he would not expect me to reimburse him for the GTM fees. Sam told me outright that he would do his best to convince Don not to send his motor back to me...well, he did a great job, as now the presentation of the "evidence" makes BuiltZMotors look completely incompetent and at fault...

Unfortunately, some feel the need to criticize and bash all competition to boost them up, I have never heard Sam say anything nice about any other shop, he is successful and does great work, but holding a humble attitude and letting the work speak for itself is all you need. Now thinking back to the many times that I thought of Sam as a friend and he would jokingly tell me I should stop building and selling motors, as he could handle it all himself, was his “truth is jest” attempt to tell me that he doesn’t like the friendly competition, now I can see that clearly in the current tactics employed.

Let me tell you something, anyone can inspect anyone else's engine and find errors if they want to...
a few things we openly do differently:
-we run larger oil clearances for the main and rod bearings, talk to any performance high hp engine builder, .001 for every inch of crank diameter is standard, a bit more clearance if it is going to see more abuse (F/I, higher revving)
- we error on the side of caution with all machining, our shop that bores/hones, decks, balances... they will aim for the final bore size of 3.780 for the arias Ed .020 over piston, this will allow .005-.006 clearance for the zero silicone, forged aluminum piston, as these pistons will expand slightly more than a partial silicone piston- so running another thousandths piston to wall clearance is totally acceptable... if it was .007, that is a bit on the loose side, but still will not produce enough "rocking" to allow a piston to hit a cylinder head! keep in mind, the hg is .024 thick, so if the piston to wall clearance is say, .002 larger, the piston at best may rock an additional .001-.002 at the very most higher in the cylinder, still allowing plenty of room to clear the head... (math below, later in this extremely long post)

so, I am very curious to inspect the engine and to see how this was possible, not doubting it didn't happen, just want to see HOW it happened, if it is our error, I want to know how to NEVER have this happen again!

HISTORY cont.:
Now, back to Sam and my interaction... he told me on the phone that he explained the possibilities to Don but that he would have to open the engine up to see what went wrong/cause of loss of compression...

He also told me that Don did a horrid job installing the engine, “one of the worst jobs I have ever seen” and then it was taken to a shop in AZ ”who are complete idiots”, so he was “siding” with me saying that there are definitely many variables here that could have led to the motors issues, a different story that he portrayed to Don, a potential customer who could be soon spending $13K. I did say to Sam, if this problem is a result of the bad initial tune or dyno issue, please make this clear so that it will not be blamed on me... he later pm'd me(yesterday) twisting my words saying that I wanted to "hide" something from Don- want to clarify in case this is the next accusation. A very two faced interaction, only "airing" this so the entire story is out.

Then, a few hours later, I get a pm from Don, saying that Sam had told him that the cause of failure was improper machining of the valves, and improper honing of the cylinder (not round) so the rings were not sealing...WOW, I know GTM is good, but x-ray vision?!?!?!

So, I tried to call Sam back and he didn’t answer (typical), I wanted to know why he had just completely lied to one of us, I wanted this to be straight forward, he apparently wanted to make us look like the villains before any conclusive evidence was found.

One of the main reasons that I want to see the engine myself:

Sam and I had a bit of a “falling out” you can call it. Before this episode, we were friends, I bought parts from him, and we spoke fairly often. This unfortunate turn of events has severed our ties.

I can’t help but think that when Sam opened up the engine and didn’t find a blatant valve machining error, he needed to back up all of his premature talk, so he nitpicked and “found” any and every little “problem” he could. And his explanation and math...

DO NOT ADD UP.

I told Don “they do not add up” and he must have felt intimidated and decided to post a thread. Not the best tactic for a customer who now wants a vendor to issue a full refund before even receiving the product back (which is not part of any vendors warranty on an engine, repairing to 100% working order is), if I was an unethical person, I may have turned my back and said “you pay to play” and that’s the end of it, but even though Don has stooped to the level of publicly announcing this catastrophe instead of calling me or talking with me in private, I will still do the right thing.

Anyway, here is how the math doesn’t add up with Sam’s explanation of how the piston is hitting the head, and why we need to do some inspections of our own.

This is a pm I sent to Don and Sam:

"A possibility is rodbolt stretch in an over-revving scenario, which would explain the two valves not sealing (bend slightly from kissing the piston) and various pistons hitting the head as a result of the rod bolt stretch.

The rod bearing clearance is irrelevant at 5 ten thousandths of an inch greater.

Even assuming the bore size was slightly larger, the rocking of the piston would allow possible 1-2 thousandths greater height.

The headgasket, even being at a mere .024", the heads being decked taking .003" off (irrelevant in approximating the head to the piston) and the block taking .003" off (standard practice- can take off much .006"+), this would allow, at the least, .018" + .002"= .020" clearance between the piston and the head. Still doesn’t add up.

Upon assembly, we would see that the piston is sticking out of the block, past the headgasket!, That was definitely not the case.

If we blatantly put .018" more clearance in a rod bearing, than this could be possible. This is obviously not the case.

Something is not adding up, I feel for your situation, as it is frustrating for you by all means, and confusing for us, as it simply does not add up.

I will be in California this weekend, as I am helping my parents move, I'll save the hassle in shipping the engine to AZ then to us, I'll just pick it up in person.

Understand we have had several successful high horsepower engines that we have produced, and if this does end up being some sort of error on our part, or a rod.p A possibility is rodbolt stretch in an over-revving scenario, which would explain the two valves not sealing (bend slightly from kissing the piston) and various pistons hitting the head as a result of the rod bolt stretch.

The rod bearing clearance is irrelevant at 5 ten thousandths of an inch greater.

Even assuming the bore size was slightly larger, the rocking of the piston would allow possible 1-2 thousandths greater height.

The headgasket, even being at a mere .024", the heads being decked taking .003" off (irrelevant in approximating the head to the piston) and the block taking .003" off (standard practice- can take off much .006"+), this would allow, at the least, .018" + .002"= .020" clearance between the piston and the head. Still doesn’t add up.

Upon assembly, we would see that the piston is sticking out of the block, past the headgasket!, That was definitely not the case.

If we blatantly put .018" more clearance in a rod bearing, than this could be possible., This is obviously not the case.

Something is not adding up, I feel for your situation, as it is frustrating for you by all means, and confusing for us, as it simply does not add up.

I will be in California this weekend, as I am helping my parents move, I'll save the hassle in shipping the engine to AZ then to us, I'll just pick it up in person.

Understand we have had several successful high horsepower engines that we have produced, and if this does end up being some sort of error on our part, or a rod/piston defect, we will rectify the situation."

Sam responded and told me that the valve was not bent and it was just not sealing, again, we will check this ourselves, as a very minute bend is very tough to see, and as I stated earlier, I need to remove some of the bias by the newly endowed $13k richer shop.

Everyone that knows me, I will do the right thing in the end, as stated several times already, we need to inspect the product first.

-TODD

 

very valid point......On my ford motors, I always had them run in on an engine dyno prior to leaving the engine builder.

 

no problem.

 

For all the big shops that do engine builds, I would recommend an investment in a beater Z to use as a test mule for built engines. They could build a motor for each customer and break it in properly themselves in their own vehicle to make sure all was ok before shipping or installing in the customer's car. This would alleviate a lot of blown built motor issues I would think.

 

we will no longer be selling longblock engines assembled (timed) as Sharif had recommedned to me for so long. They will come as a shortblock, blueprinted and balanced, and the heads, machined, vacuum tested, pressure tested, fully assembled and clearanced.

Live and learn

TODD

 

By run in do you mean they not only ran the motor on an engine dyno but actually performed the break in for you? That in itself would be worth it to me from a cost perspective. I know people are going to say that we already b!tch too much about engine build prices and I'm not downplaying cost involved but to me it would be more than worth the additional reasonable charge for this. It certainly would mitigate the "I got a brand new motor so I'll romp on it just once" issues people have. Break in of a new motor is crucial and the temptation is far to great for a lot of people. I had a hard time "breaking in" my new clutch let alone a built motor.
DISCLAIMER: THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE TODD/JOE SITUATION

[/threadjack]

 

I was actually looking into this several months ago, and just hadn't pusued it further, we could build a simulated engine bay pretty well, it would take some work, but after the initial startup of the engine, changing of oil, the engine could have a compression test, leakdown, and this would be huge in preventing an issue that really maybe had nothing to do with the build/materials, but was an abuse scenario, etc...
every event yields something positive, maybe this will be our motivation.

TODD

 

I wonder what the cost is on one of those. BTW no need to simulate an engine bay:
http://www.superflow.com/dynamometers/index_291.cfm

 

I bet when VQ35 engine builders buy something like this a lot of people will start posting their crank hp numbers instead of their whp just because they are higher.

 

Well Todd....


Why would Don choose to take his motor to GTM instead of to you to get it fixed / inspected in the first place? There seems to be a hole somewhere, how was your initial handling of the situation when Don 1st brought this to your attention?.....

I know there is alot in the installation process of the motor but for someone with a working knowledge it becomes more like an erector set. Don has an above average working knowledge.

I am curious to your initial reaction and what caused Don to take his motor to GTM initially...

 

As far as i know Todd build's Engines.. he doesn't install them..

i think Don was at GTM to get the car tuned.. thats when they noticed the compression issue.

 

Todd don't blame don on all this for going public as anybody would have trusted the 3rd party and he did wait for all the info in place which he felt was impartial and didn't get the appropriate response back... if anything, as you say he was played by the 3rd party involved. So now lets see what the 3rd party says

 

I think it is pretty apparent Todd does not blame the OP...

 

Read the entire thread doug... GTM did not do the initial tune... The problem was ongoing much before it getting to GTM's plate.

 

Here is where I am confused.. I am by no means a professional at engine building and do not entertain the idea of becoming one but there is obviously something going on with what that initial compression test looks like. On a brand spankin new motor the above does not look good at all.

Even if Todd and Sam are not as friendly as they used to be that still does not mean they cannot be professional with EACH OTHER and be able to communicate about what is going on. Now I am sure that if Sam 'suspected' even for a second it was the motor, dont you think the person whom supplied the motor should do the breakdown/ inspection of the motor and come up with their conclusion instead of another 3rd party shop. I am not sure if I read it but was this ok'ed with Todd that if there was something wrong with it would Todd trust Sam that it was enough of a conclusion to warranty it?? I think alot if this should of been discussed with said parties so NO surprises are brought up later......

I do feel badly for Don and have kept up with his 'other' threads but we all have to be realistic. I am by no means backing anybody at this point as I never heard from both sides until now. I simply feel that if it could of been taken care of in a more patient manner, all of this would not have happened..

 

werd... maybe a full refund less "restocking' fees... and everybody goes their own way... who knows

*awaiting 3rd party's response *

 

The vehicle was left at GTM after their tuning attempt for the stated reason: two competent shops encountered the exact same tuning issue and was unable to resolve it. Having ruled out the extraneous components, this lends to the motor being at fault.

I was not privy to outstanding animosities between GTM and BZM, and if Todd feels that introduces bias into the scenario, such is life. If Sam stated the derogatory comments, understand that I'm only concerned about the end product, not whether anyone gives me warm fuzzies along the way. Sam candidly shared criticisms about the install (missing fender underskirts, loose wiring to the NOS discharge port for the intercooler, missing battery tiedown) and I accept them, though they are irrelevant to the performance of the motor. To suggest that Sam or GTM has purposely found fault throughout the teardown to benefit their financial interests is absurd for a shop of that caliber.

Leaving the car at GTM was a prudent move. Had I taken it to an unknown shop here in AZ, upon listing the same findings I would have been under fire for not taking it to a 'recognized' shop. The machinist at GTM has been in practice for a significant number of years so I instill faith that their assessment is spot-on.

If Todd wants to take the motor back to NM, then so be it. That leaves me without much recourse when it turns into a pissing match of conflicting findings.

I was strongly encouraged by MANY individuals on this board not to return the motor to BZM for teardown analysis for obvious reasons:

• First-party bias; if you up-front deny any possibility of your machinists performing an error (as Todd did), that pretty much removes any faith that they will critically evaluate their own product and potential failure(s).
• Suppose the motor comes back 'resolved' and we encounter the same issues. After all, it's only about $3 - $4k everytime they pull the motor. Having GTM complete the repairs with a written warranty instills much more faith that the consumer will end up with the intended product.

Todd errs in being so quick to establish that I have not attempted contact. He has been in communication with GTM, and I provided teardown results in a reasonable time (allowing for a response) before making the matter a pupblic affair. Todd was nice enough to tell potential customers, after discussing the reference thread, that my motor failure was due to a bent valve secondary to a tuner overrev (an extraordinary claim that was unfounded). If I have to post the 14 dyno runs that demonstrate that car never (couldn't) go above 6200 rpms, that should absolve that argument quickly...

I do not have an incredible amount for tolerance for those that do not assume the accountability for an obviously deficient product or service. The response I received from Todd was not what I felt to be appropriate, and further delays the repair process. Hence, the thread was posted.

With regards to questioning my tactics: if you feel I am intimidated into posting this information, you have a gross misunderstanding of your customer in this instance. I have not stooped to an unacceptable level - I have removed all instances of hearsay from this experience (whereas you chose to introduce demeaning comments transferred between parties) and chosen to state that which was factual and objective.

Should Todd choose to pick the motor up from GTM, that is fine. At this point, I have no confidence in his products and fear that continuing to use them only exposes me to greater financial risk. The findings per GTM are unlikely to be refuted, so a refund post-vendor inspection would be warranted and is again be requested. Failure to do so will resuilt in litigation.

 

warm fuzzies

+1
i agree with this post

 

i concur completely... i think Todd should have been the one to break down and diagnose the issue with the engine... this is only fair as he was the manufacturer... i'm guessing that he trusted Sam enough to allow him to do this for him... as it turns out, this looks to be a BIG mistake... business > friendship for most people and it looks like Sam falls into this category... i can't say that Sam purposefully bashed Todd's motor, but it seems Todd believes so... (i will add that if Todd is correct and Sam degraded his build to make money or save face, then it would seem that even though GTM has high quality work standards, they have low quality work ethics)

IMHO, the remedy should be a motor rebuild if the block and heads are capable...and if not, a motor replacement... a refund is asking far too much for this type of aftermarket situation...

Todd, i must say that i can appreciate what you'd tried to do for the community... i'm glad that you are heeding Sharif's advice and are no longer going to sell "drop in" motors... it's a hard lesson that you have learned, but at least you can move forward having more knowledge...

To all of the rest, don't let this episode spoil you on BuiltZMotors... the product is good and only getting better...