My unenviable experience concerning BuiltZMotors
08-08-2007, 04:46 PM
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My unenviable experience concerning BuiltZMotors
Reference thread: https://my350z.com/forum/forced-induction/277180-poor-cylinder-compression-on-new-built-motor-what-to-do.html
When I posted that thread, I began to receive numerous PMs/IMs regarding concerns and discrepancies with products distributed by BuiltZMotors. Unfortunately, there are no firmly corroborating threads, and I respect to maintain the anonymity of those vendors/customers that contacted me.
I will say that it would have been nice if people had shared their disappointments on the forums to provide an objective assessment of products distributed, but that’s water under the bridge. Sucks that I get to be the first, but I nothing to anyone that this moment...
So…
My OEM motor was on it's last leg when I contacted BuiltZMotors regarding built motor options. He shot me a seemingly fantastic deal on a longblock package containing:
- Arias ED pistons/ring
- Eagle rods
- HKS gaskets
- ½” ARP studs throughout
- Rev-up oil pump
- Refurbished heads
Total cost was $5200 + $1000 core return – so, hell yeah!
Check was sent – cashed – Todd wrote back and stated he would add the JWT shims and springs and rear cooling mod for about $420 extra. Sure, why not?
Motor arrived, looked good on the outside. Installed on spare evenings – started right up.
When first installed, it was running well at idle and cruise, but very sloppy on the upper end (very rich) when I romped on it at the 50 mi. mark. Stayed out of it until I had about 250mi. on the car and took it to DynoComp in Scottsdale.
Rich at DynoComp could not get the motor to make any decent power above 400rwhp, nor appropriately resolve the richness issue. Throughout the tuning (about a 15 minute session) he was unable to take much fuel out of it.
Additionally, he said I was experiencing spark blow out with 0.035” gapping (PLFR6 plugs) and to take it home, regap at 0.028” So, plugs were cleaned and regapped, and coils pulled and tested to assure each was firing. Took it back, Rich adjusted the fuel trim scaling per UniChip, and we were on our way to a happy tuning session…
...or not
Car made ~390hp (DynoDynamics) at 11psi with an AFR curve that looked like *** (very jagged). Rich felt that I may have either an injector problem (stuck/closed/whatever) and that I may still be experiencing spark blowout, a faulty motor, or I have a weak ignition setup. I was sent back with the directive that I:
• Pull the injectors and send to them to RC to get flow tested/cleaned
• Amplify the ignition system somehow
• Perform a compression check
I ordered HKS’ Twin Power DLI II Amplifier and pulled the injectors to get sent to RC. I then performed a compression check:
Cylinder psi
1 100
2 140
3 145
4 145
5 145
6 145
Now, at this point, the car had about 300 mi on it, two oil changes, and I was really lost on whether it was the fault of the tuner or the car itself. Todd (BuiltZMotors) saw the thread, stated that the rings likely had not seated and I would need to continue driving the car beyond 1,000 mi. until the rings had done so. He felt that I had an injector stuck open which may have washed the rings.
- The injectors came back, RC report stated no errors found, good flow pattern at rates of 48 – 51 – so, in essence, they were fine.
- Rec'd new plugs - gapped them at 0.035"
- Added the HKS Ignition amplifier
- Drove the car ~500 mi. around Phoenix over a couple weeks without hammering on it.
- Performed another oil change - oil quality looks good, no gas smell, etc.
- Purchased UTEC, and drove it to GTM (+320 mi. from house).
I had GTM install the UTEC and was advised to install an EGT gauge at the same time. So that was done...
The car made a tad over 400rwhp at 4500rpm at 9psi. However, the horsepower curve took a dump after 5500 rpms - looked almost parabolic in nature - down to low 300's by 6500 rpms. More concerning was that when the boost was increased to 15psi - there was no increase in horsepower at all.
By the end of the second day, Sam had ruled out anything related to tuning. I decided to leave the car at GTM so they can perform a compression/leakdown test and go through the entire car looking for the gremlin(s).
Here’s where things get ugly…
GTM began a teardown of the motor, and found immediate discrepancies in valve seating tolerances and machining. These results were shared with Todd, who offered the rebuttal that we would need to wait and see to be certain, but denied any possibility of a machining error as he had yet to see any of his motors come back with this diagnosis. Todd did state that if machining errors were to be found, he would remachine, assemble and reimburse costs for the rings and bearings ($500 total).
It was about this time I began receiving unenthusiastic feedback from the Z community about recent experiences with Todd’s motor. I had solicited feedback from a certain vendor about an occurrence and how the matter was handled by Todd; he declined to comment either way.
As the reference thread kept popping up, I would continue to receive PMs and even a couple phone calls to my home from vendors and previous customers. At one point, potential clients had stated that they were told by Todd I had bent a valve which led to the disappointing results of my motor build. While untrue, I kept put until GTM released their findings.
So the findings are as follows:
Per GTM technician and invoice (attached): UPON REMOVAL OF THE CYLINDER HEADS I FOUND SIGNS THAT THE PISTONS ARE TOUCHING THE CYLINDER HEADS. DURING INSPECTION OF THE ENGINE I FOUND MULTIPLE FACTORS THAT ARE CONTRIBUTING TO THIS PROBLEM. AT FACTORY INSTALLED HEIGHT THE PISTONS ARE INSTALLED AT -.005 IN. BELOW THE SURFACE. THE BLOCK HAS BEEN SURFACED .003 IN. THAT PUTS THE ARIAS PISTON INSTALLED AT -.002 IN. BELOW THE SURFACE. IN ADDITION THE PISTON TO CYLINDER WALL CLEARANCE SHOULD BE .005 IN. AS RECOMMENDED BY ARIAS. I FOUND THE CLEARANCES BETWEEN .006 IN. AND .007 IN. .001 TO .002 IN. MORE THAN RECOMMENDED ALLOWING THE PISTON MORE ROCK IN THE BORE.
ALSO I FOUND THAT THE ROD BEARINGS HAVE .003 IN. CLEARANCE WITCH SHOULD BE .0015 / .002 IN. ALL OF THESE FACTORS COUPLED WITH A .024 IN HEAD GASKET AND HIGH RPM. WILL CREATE THIS CONDITION. ALSO THE NUMBER 1 VALVES ARE NOT HOLD PROPER VACUUM AS SHOWN IN THE PICTURES PROVIDED AS IT SHOULD, THE ENGINE IS SEVERLY CONTAMINATED WITH METAL DEBREE IN THE OIL PAN DUE TO CONTAMINATION DURING THE ASSEMBLY PROCESS OR FROM THE OLD ENGINE CORE NOT BEING CLEANED.
When I posted that thread, I began to receive numerous PMs/IMs regarding concerns and discrepancies with products distributed by BuiltZMotors. Unfortunately, there are no firmly corroborating threads, and I respect to maintain the anonymity of those vendors/customers that contacted me.
I will say that it would have been nice if people had shared their disappointments on the forums to provide an objective assessment of products distributed, but that’s water under the bridge. Sucks that I get to be the first, but I nothing to anyone that this moment...
So…
My OEM motor was on it's last leg when I contacted BuiltZMotors regarding built motor options. He shot me a seemingly fantastic deal on a longblock package containing:
- Arias ED pistons/ring
- Eagle rods
- HKS gaskets
- ½” ARP studs throughout
- Rev-up oil pump
- Refurbished heads
Total cost was $5200 + $1000 core return – so, hell yeah!
Check was sent – cashed – Todd wrote back and stated he would add the JWT shims and springs and rear cooling mod for about $420 extra. Sure, why not?
Motor arrived, looked good on the outside. Installed on spare evenings – started right up.
When first installed, it was running well at idle and cruise, but very sloppy on the upper end (very rich) when I romped on it at the 50 mi. mark. Stayed out of it until I had about 250mi. on the car and took it to DynoComp in Scottsdale.
Rich at DynoComp could not get the motor to make any decent power above 400rwhp, nor appropriately resolve the richness issue. Throughout the tuning (about a 15 minute session) he was unable to take much fuel out of it.
Additionally, he said I was experiencing spark blow out with 0.035” gapping (PLFR6 plugs) and to take it home, regap at 0.028” So, plugs were cleaned and regapped, and coils pulled and tested to assure each was firing. Took it back, Rich adjusted the fuel trim scaling per UniChip, and we were on our way to a happy tuning session…
...or not
Car made ~390hp (DynoDynamics) at 11psi with an AFR curve that looked like *** (very jagged). Rich felt that I may have either an injector problem (stuck/closed/whatever) and that I may still be experiencing spark blowout, a faulty motor, or I have a weak ignition setup. I was sent back with the directive that I:
• Pull the injectors and send to them to RC to get flow tested/cleaned
• Amplify the ignition system somehow
• Perform a compression check
I ordered HKS’ Twin Power DLI II Amplifier and pulled the injectors to get sent to RC. I then performed a compression check:
Cylinder psi
1 100
2 140
3 145
4 145
5 145
6 145
Now, at this point, the car had about 300 mi on it, two oil changes, and I was really lost on whether it was the fault of the tuner or the car itself. Todd (BuiltZMotors) saw the thread, stated that the rings likely had not seated and I would need to continue driving the car beyond 1,000 mi. until the rings had done so. He felt that I had an injector stuck open which may have washed the rings.
- The injectors came back, RC report stated no errors found, good flow pattern at rates of 48 – 51 – so, in essence, they were fine.
- Rec'd new plugs - gapped them at 0.035"
- Added the HKS Ignition amplifier
- Drove the car ~500 mi. around Phoenix over a couple weeks without hammering on it.
- Performed another oil change - oil quality looks good, no gas smell, etc.
- Purchased UTEC, and drove it to GTM (+320 mi. from house).
I had GTM install the UTEC and was advised to install an EGT gauge at the same time. So that was done...
The car made a tad over 400rwhp at 4500rpm at 9psi. However, the horsepower curve took a dump after 5500 rpms - looked almost parabolic in nature - down to low 300's by 6500 rpms. More concerning was that when the boost was increased to 15psi - there was no increase in horsepower at all.
By the end of the second day, Sam had ruled out anything related to tuning. I decided to leave the car at GTM so they can perform a compression/leakdown test and go through the entire car looking for the gremlin(s).
Here’s where things get ugly…
GTM began a teardown of the motor, and found immediate discrepancies in valve seating tolerances and machining. These results were shared with Todd, who offered the rebuttal that we would need to wait and see to be certain, but denied any possibility of a machining error as he had yet to see any of his motors come back with this diagnosis. Todd did state that if machining errors were to be found, he would remachine, assemble and reimburse costs for the rings and bearings ($500 total).
It was about this time I began receiving unenthusiastic feedback from the Z community about recent experiences with Todd’s motor. I had solicited feedback from a certain vendor about an occurrence and how the matter was handled by Todd; he declined to comment either way.
As the reference thread kept popping up, I would continue to receive PMs and even a couple phone calls to my home from vendors and previous customers. At one point, potential clients had stated that they were told by Todd I had bent a valve which led to the disappointing results of my motor build. While untrue, I kept put until GTM released their findings.
So the findings are as follows:
Per GTM technician and invoice (attached): UPON REMOVAL OF THE CYLINDER HEADS I FOUND SIGNS THAT THE PISTONS ARE TOUCHING THE CYLINDER HEADS. DURING INSPECTION OF THE ENGINE I FOUND MULTIPLE FACTORS THAT ARE CONTRIBUTING TO THIS PROBLEM. AT FACTORY INSTALLED HEIGHT THE PISTONS ARE INSTALLED AT -.005 IN. BELOW THE SURFACE. THE BLOCK HAS BEEN SURFACED .003 IN. THAT PUTS THE ARIAS PISTON INSTALLED AT -.002 IN. BELOW THE SURFACE. IN ADDITION THE PISTON TO CYLINDER WALL CLEARANCE SHOULD BE .005 IN. AS RECOMMENDED BY ARIAS. I FOUND THE CLEARANCES BETWEEN .006 IN. AND .007 IN. .001 TO .002 IN. MORE THAN RECOMMENDED ALLOWING THE PISTON MORE ROCK IN THE BORE.
ALSO I FOUND THAT THE ROD BEARINGS HAVE .003 IN. CLEARANCE WITCH SHOULD BE .0015 / .002 IN. ALL OF THESE FACTORS COUPLED WITH A .024 IN HEAD GASKET AND HIGH RPM. WILL CREATE THIS CONDITION. ALSO THE NUMBER 1 VALVES ARE NOT HOLD PROPER VACUUM AS SHOWN IN THE PICTURES PROVIDED AS IT SHOULD, THE ENGINE IS SEVERLY CONTAMINATED WITH METAL DEBREE IN THE OIL PAN DUE TO CONTAMINATION DURING THE ASSEMBLY PROCESS OR FROM THE OLD ENGINE CORE NOT BEING CLEANED.
08-08-2007, 04:47 PM
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I have contacted Todd and shared these findings. At the present time, I've made the decision for GTM to complete repairs on the vehicle. They stated that they could not use the current longblock secondary to scoring and machining errors from the previous build, so I will be transporting to them a spare longblock I have on my trip to California this weekend.
I have requested from Todd a full refund in the amount of $6,200 + shipping and I will return the defunct block back to him, or he can pick it up from GTM after $6,200 has been refunded next week as he’s passing by anyways.
As for the remaining $6,826 in inspection and repair costs… I feel that the product failure lends to liability in the matter, but I’m willing just to suck it up and go on.
Where things are presently: Todd feels that GTM’s math does not add up, I have made inaccurate assumptions about the motor’s failure, and that cause of failure… can not be from the .0005" of extra rod bearing clearance, and feels that any clearance issues are secondary to rodbolt stretch from over-revving.
He has stated that if the failure is due to their machining, piston or rod failure, then they will rectify the situation.
As I see it, I’ve chosen how I want things to proceed, and that is simply to receive a full refund for an inherently faulty product.
I understand this may place GTM and BuiltZMotors at odds with each other and compromise their professional relationship in some manner, but I have a rather large repair bill to contend with so I have to side with the party that has provided and evaluated the data to determine failure.
The pictures are quite telling, and corroborate the concerns I've been stating since Day 1. Any claims of over-revving the motor, or bending a valve, etc., are without foundation as I have been with the vehicle since Day 1 and am privy to what the car has/has not been subjected. There appears to be no evidence as such, and at this point I entrust the findings stated by GTM.
While I appreciate Todd’s past performance history on built motors, what is relevant to me is the outstanding repairs and costs associated with the product I have in hand. The positive feedback and experiences shared on the boards prompted my initial purchase. However, my experience plus that offered (unsolicited) in private regarding recent products from BuiltZMotors removes any want to receive another product for fear of another unwarranted repair bill or substandard product.
I've chosen GTM to complete the repairs on several considerations based on reputation, convenience, assurance and a legally-binding warranty on their products.
My summary of the situation is simply that I installed a motor, which was found to be defective through no fault of the end user, the results of which were validated by a qualified shop. I need my money back…
Caveat emptor
I have requested from Todd a full refund in the amount of $6,200 + shipping and I will return the defunct block back to him, or he can pick it up from GTM after $6,200 has been refunded next week as he’s passing by anyways.
As for the remaining $6,826 in inspection and repair costs… I feel that the product failure lends to liability in the matter, but I’m willing just to suck it up and go on.
Where things are presently: Todd feels that GTM’s math does not add up, I have made inaccurate assumptions about the motor’s failure, and that cause of failure… can not be from the .0005" of extra rod bearing clearance, and feels that any clearance issues are secondary to rodbolt stretch from over-revving.
He has stated that if the failure is due to their machining, piston or rod failure, then they will rectify the situation.
As I see it, I’ve chosen how I want things to proceed, and that is simply to receive a full refund for an inherently faulty product.
I understand this may place GTM and BuiltZMotors at odds with each other and compromise their professional relationship in some manner, but I have a rather large repair bill to contend with so I have to side with the party that has provided and evaluated the data to determine failure.
The pictures are quite telling, and corroborate the concerns I've been stating since Day 1. Any claims of over-revving the motor, or bending a valve, etc., are without foundation as I have been with the vehicle since Day 1 and am privy to what the car has/has not been subjected. There appears to be no evidence as such, and at this point I entrust the findings stated by GTM.
While I appreciate Todd’s past performance history on built motors, what is relevant to me is the outstanding repairs and costs associated with the product I have in hand. The positive feedback and experiences shared on the boards prompted my initial purchase. However, my experience plus that offered (unsolicited) in private regarding recent products from BuiltZMotors removes any want to receive another product for fear of another unwarranted repair bill or substandard product.
I've chosen GTM to complete the repairs on several considerations based on reputation, convenience, assurance and a legally-binding warranty on their products.
My summary of the situation is simply that I installed a motor, which was found to be defective through no fault of the end user, the results of which were validated by a qualified shop. I need my money back…
Caveat emptor
08-08-2007, 04:49 PM
#4
Damn Don.. you been through alot this year.. i feel for you man.. car.. relationship .. you are a strong man.. i applaud you.. maybe due to your profesion and profesionalism.. most people would have started shooting people already..
Hope everything turns around for you Don.. i wish you all the best
Hope everything turns around for you Don.. i wish you all the best
08-08-2007, 04:56 PM
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OMG dude. Good Luck with everything! This has been a rough experience for you. On a positive note, at least you folks on the west coast are able to drive your cars year round and I hope you're on the street soon!
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08-08-2007, 05:05 PM
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Please take out your personal info. I took the liberty to edit your info out, edit your first post:
http://www.chicagoz.com/chops/invoice1.jpg
http://www.chicagoz.com/chops/invoice2.jpg
http://www.chicagoz.com/chops/invoice1.jpg
http://www.chicagoz.com/chops/invoice2.jpg
08-08-2007, 05:08 PM
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Originally Posted by doug
Damn Don.. you been through alot this year.. i feel for you man.. car.. relationship .. you are a strong man.. i applaud you.. maybe due to your profesion and profesionalism.. most people would have started shooting people already..
Hope everything turns around for you Don.. i wish you all the best
Hope everything turns around for you Don.. i wish you all the best
DAYUM!!! how much is actually tweakign and tuning? 
j/k.
08-08-2007, 05:47 PM
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Damn man, so sorry to hear about all of the problems. This is certainly some fked up sht and someone needs to take responsiblity for it. I hope you do get your money back. Good luck with getting things straightened out.
...Hmmmm... I've seen this before on another motor...
...Hmmmm... I've seen this before on another motor...
08-08-2007, 05:52 PM
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Those pics speak for themselves bro... There is noooo way you over rev'd this motor before 1000 miles of break-in. Of anyone I know, I know you take great care in how you handle your Z... What a bunch of BS... those bearings dont even look like they belong on those rods not to mention the pistons... WTF...
Good luck man, I would 100% expect a full refund from them and I would consider litigation for 50% of the bill you are incurring from GTM.
Seems like they just threw your motor together with no real care whatsoever, and did they get the block from a frickn junkyard?... look at the debris in there OMFG! I would be incensed at this, totally unacceptable!
Good luck man, I would 100% expect a full refund from them and I would consider litigation for 50% of the bill you are incurring from GTM.
Seems like they just threw your motor together with no real care whatsoever, and did they get the block from a frickn junkyard?... look at the debris in there OMFG! I would be incensed at this, totally unacceptable!
Last edited by Triji; 08-08-2007 at 05:58 PM.
08-08-2007, 06:04 PM
#20
Originally Posted by booger
Im very surprised there isnt more comments on the tuning and repair bill !!!!!
I was thinking the same thinghate to hear what happend with your motor. Hope you get it all worked out.
This is the only bad thing about buying a motor from a online vendor imo. If something does go wrong it can be very hard to get it all worked out.