BuiltZMotors rebuttal to GTM's after the fact analysis
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builtZmotors
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From: Albuquerque, NM
BuiltZMotors rebuttal to GTM's after the fact analysis
Moderators, Please do not delete this thread, as I spent hours this morning gathering this data, and this will help further understand the story.
Great write up "Sam"- you know I'm not poking at your grammar and English to be a mean guy, just pointing out that you routinely have someone else respond under your name. The public should know that when the screen name says “Sam@GTM” oftentimes it is someone else posting, but that is besides the fact...
Rebuttal to GTM’s “withheld evidence” recently presented:
As I presumed earlier, now I will have to invest even more time responding to your rebuttal, which looks good, but at this point, I would not expect any less- you clearly see the effects of your actions on the community, you see the data that we presented that you missed, and now you are backpedaling.
"We had all this information that we didn't share because it wasn't necessary, but now because we are on the line, we'll pull it out of the vault" {not actual quote}
Funny that I had a feeling that you would try to pull something like this, disassembling the head, then sending it back to us assembled. Do an array of “secret tests” take all the close up pictures, fact of the matter is that when we vacuum tested and inspected the heads, they were fine tell me how this can be (actually, I have a pretty good explanation).
When we inspected the heads that are in our possession, the mating surfaces were intact. Why would they be problematic and then spontaneously return to normal?
Cylinder Heads:
I just returned from our machine shop, we tore down the passenger side head (with cylinder #1 in question).
OUR FINDINGS:
I want to explain our analytical game plan. First plan was to label the valves and pull them out, to compare the condition of the seats and the valve- the mating surfaces.
As I compared the seats in cylinder #1 exhaust valves to the seats in Cylinder #3 exhaust valves, I noticed something interesting. There is a moderate amount of carbon build up, consistently on all 4 of the examined valves. Our machinists all agreed that the exhaust valve mating surfaces are most likely to appear dirty as they allow the waste to exit the combustion chamber.
Removing valves in cylinder #3 for comparison:
A high mileage engine, excessive carbon build up is to be assumed, but this is a fresh engine. Carbon deposits can also be caused by a rich condition, because the presentation of the seat is consistent on a cylinder that was claimed to be leaking (#1) and one that was not leaking(#3); this shows that the presence of carbon on a portion of the seat is not to blame. Just as GTM’s math didn’t add up as to why the piston was striking the head, this doesn’t either.
Cylinder#1:
Cylinder#3:
The intake valve seats were even more pristine. Mild evidence of exhaust gasses entering behind the valve is present, to be expected in any engine- keep in mind the valves are opening and closing very quickly, hundreds of times per second, all the meanwhile the air/fuel combination is changing, the pressures constantly changing, as the piston cycles up and down.
An interesting finding on one of the exhaust valve seats, there are two distinct mild compression marks on the seat, as if a piece of debris was crushed (and imbedded) between the valve and the seat, possibly carbon, or other foreign material that entered the combustion chamber. The impression can be palpated with the finger nail. The impression is not creating a sealing issue now, when the heads are tested, but could have when/if debris was imbedded and disturbing the mating surfaces.
After taking several pictures, having 3 different machinists inspect the seats and valves, we vacuum tested each port again. And again, they all passed with flying colors, no signs of any sealing issues.
Because of the suspicious findings on one of the exhaust valve seats, I don’t doubt that GTM may have performed a leakdown and found that cylinder #1 was leaking. We could not find any evidence to suggest that the intake valves were leaking, but one of the exhaust valves is suspect because of the unusual 2 marks on the seat. If debris was embedded and lodged between the exhaust valve and the seat while the leakdown was performed, this could explain the findings.
We vacuum tested all ports of Cylinder #1 compared to Cylinder #3 again, ZERO difference between them, if the seat was machined improperly, this test would show a variation!
Again, IN NO WAY SHAPE OR FORM are there any signs of machining errors between the valves and the seats, they mate perfectly, and hold consistent vacuum.
Note: Wet appearance of valve and seat is from whatever previous “tests” GTM performed. Again, we are piecing together a story that has already been tampered with.
Power loss:
This is an important concept to address. Even if cylinder #1 wasn’t sealing at the valve as claimed, if cylinders #2-#6 were sealing, and compression was adequate, why the FLATLINED power as the boost was increased. The most likely reason is that the cylinder pressure was lost consistently across all 6 cylinders or a majority thereof- resulting in the inability to build power at higher boost levels. The rings are pushed out against the cylinder wall to aid in better sealing as cylinder pressures increase, but when the rings have been damaged and have lost their original shape/ tension, they can not accomplish this task.
What is another popular cause, valve float from weakened valve springs- also heating (we haven’t even checked the tension of the valve springs yet, but we will in the very near future, maybe they are ok?)
Engine Contamination:
Again, we have addressed this. There is definite proof that there were some contaminates circulating through this engine at some time- the bearings have grooves consistent with tiny particles lodged in between the oil channels/mating surfaces. Unfortunately I don’t have any way of knowing that the contamination was not introduced by the other components that go into closing up an engine, and the other components attached to such engine, we have already covered this point. We don’t toss in a handful of metal into our engines for good luck.
When we had the chance to examine the bearings in hand, there are definite grooves present, consistent with contamination, no doubt, the large chunks of copper that were displayed by GTM in their initial pictures would not “slip” past our cleaning methods. We would not allow that in the block or heads that leave our location- would be flushed out when vatted, if not then, when we clean the components a second time by hand.
Sidenote: Unlike the sleeved shortblock that GTM machined and assembled for my personal vehicle a little over a year ago (chose to have them complete the shortblock assembly for time intensive purposes), that arrived to us with several shards of metal sitting on top of each piston, woops. This required our partial disassembly and reassembly to clean it properly before installing the heads.
The same shortblock that had coolant entering the combustion chamber (after running for 2 months without issue- not blaming coolant compromise- just explaining why I pulled the engine out), and when we disassembled to inspect, checked the balance of the rotating assembly, to find it was not balanced, off by several grams. When I asked Sam about the lack of balancing he stated that balancing a sub 600hp engine is unnecessary and overkill, and that they “check” to make sure the rods are close to weight amongst one another and the crank is within specs. We have always balanced to within less than .5grams, the rods to one another and the crank from end to end. Back on topic.
Pistons and Clearances:
As I stated, we do measure every piston, and ensure the final bore size, after honing allows .005” piston to wall clearance. Every set of Arias Extreme Duty pistons that we have used, have been measured, and are within 3.7760-3.7765 in diameter. This will vary slightly from external temps, so the reason that we compared the used piston to a new piston was to keep the variables constant (temp.).
Jason at Arias clearly explained that the pistons should not collapse/shrink under normal use, especially at such lower mileage. Again, the pistons ARE all measured before machining the cylinders, and their level of consistency is impeccable. So, this becomes a he said/ she said at this point. The pistons collapsed, and you are trying to backpedal because you didn’t catch it. These were not a “freak” piston manufacturing error on the side of Arias.
Great write up "Sam"- you know I'm not poking at your grammar and English to be a mean guy, just pointing out that you routinely have someone else respond under your name. The public should know that when the screen name says “Sam@GTM” oftentimes it is someone else posting, but that is besides the fact...
Rebuttal to GTM’s “withheld evidence” recently presented:
As I presumed earlier, now I will have to invest even more time responding to your rebuttal, which looks good, but at this point, I would not expect any less- you clearly see the effects of your actions on the community, you see the data that we presented that you missed, and now you are backpedaling.
"We had all this information that we didn't share because it wasn't necessary, but now because we are on the line, we'll pull it out of the vault" {not actual quote}
Funny that I had a feeling that you would try to pull something like this, disassembling the head, then sending it back to us assembled. Do an array of “secret tests” take all the close up pictures, fact of the matter is that when we vacuum tested and inspected the heads, they were fine tell me how this can be (actually, I have a pretty good explanation).
When we inspected the heads that are in our possession, the mating surfaces were intact. Why would they be problematic and then spontaneously return to normal?
Cylinder Heads:
I just returned from our machine shop, we tore down the passenger side head (with cylinder #1 in question).
OUR FINDINGS:
I want to explain our analytical game plan. First plan was to label the valves and pull them out, to compare the condition of the seats and the valve- the mating surfaces.
As I compared the seats in cylinder #1 exhaust valves to the seats in Cylinder #3 exhaust valves, I noticed something interesting. There is a moderate amount of carbon build up, consistently on all 4 of the examined valves. Our machinists all agreed that the exhaust valve mating surfaces are most likely to appear dirty as they allow the waste to exit the combustion chamber.
Removing valves in cylinder #3 for comparison:
A high mileage engine, excessive carbon build up is to be assumed, but this is a fresh engine. Carbon deposits can also be caused by a rich condition, because the presentation of the seat is consistent on a cylinder that was claimed to be leaking (#1) and one that was not leaking(#3); this shows that the presence of carbon on a portion of the seat is not to blame. Just as GTM’s math didn’t add up as to why the piston was striking the head, this doesn’t either.
Cylinder#1:
Cylinder#3:
The intake valve seats were even more pristine. Mild evidence of exhaust gasses entering behind the valve is present, to be expected in any engine- keep in mind the valves are opening and closing very quickly, hundreds of times per second, all the meanwhile the air/fuel combination is changing, the pressures constantly changing, as the piston cycles up and down.
An interesting finding on one of the exhaust valve seats, there are two distinct mild compression marks on the seat, as if a piece of debris was crushed (and imbedded) between the valve and the seat, possibly carbon, or other foreign material that entered the combustion chamber. The impression can be palpated with the finger nail. The impression is not creating a sealing issue now, when the heads are tested, but could have when/if debris was imbedded and disturbing the mating surfaces.
After taking several pictures, having 3 different machinists inspect the seats and valves, we vacuum tested each port again. And again, they all passed with flying colors, no signs of any sealing issues.
Because of the suspicious findings on one of the exhaust valve seats, I don’t doubt that GTM may have performed a leakdown and found that cylinder #1 was leaking. We could not find any evidence to suggest that the intake valves were leaking, but one of the exhaust valves is suspect because of the unusual 2 marks on the seat. If debris was embedded and lodged between the exhaust valve and the seat while the leakdown was performed, this could explain the findings.
We vacuum tested all ports of Cylinder #1 compared to Cylinder #3 again, ZERO difference between them, if the seat was machined improperly, this test would show a variation!
Again, IN NO WAY SHAPE OR FORM are there any signs of machining errors between the valves and the seats, they mate perfectly, and hold consistent vacuum.
Note: Wet appearance of valve and seat is from whatever previous “tests” GTM performed. Again, we are piecing together a story that has already been tampered with.
Power loss:
This is an important concept to address. Even if cylinder #1 wasn’t sealing at the valve as claimed, if cylinders #2-#6 were sealing, and compression was adequate, why the FLATLINED power as the boost was increased. The most likely reason is that the cylinder pressure was lost consistently across all 6 cylinders or a majority thereof- resulting in the inability to build power at higher boost levels. The rings are pushed out against the cylinder wall to aid in better sealing as cylinder pressures increase, but when the rings have been damaged and have lost their original shape/ tension, they can not accomplish this task.
What is another popular cause, valve float from weakened valve springs- also heating (we haven’t even checked the tension of the valve springs yet, but we will in the very near future, maybe they are ok?)
Engine Contamination:
Again, we have addressed this. There is definite proof that there were some contaminates circulating through this engine at some time- the bearings have grooves consistent with tiny particles lodged in between the oil channels/mating surfaces. Unfortunately I don’t have any way of knowing that the contamination was not introduced by the other components that go into closing up an engine, and the other components attached to such engine, we have already covered this point. We don’t toss in a handful of metal into our engines for good luck.
When we had the chance to examine the bearings in hand, there are definite grooves present, consistent with contamination, no doubt, the large chunks of copper that were displayed by GTM in their initial pictures would not “slip” past our cleaning methods. We would not allow that in the block or heads that leave our location- would be flushed out when vatted, if not then, when we clean the components a second time by hand.
Sidenote: Unlike the sleeved shortblock that GTM machined and assembled for my personal vehicle a little over a year ago (chose to have them complete the shortblock assembly for time intensive purposes), that arrived to us with several shards of metal sitting on top of each piston, woops. This required our partial disassembly and reassembly to clean it properly before installing the heads.
The same shortblock that had coolant entering the combustion chamber (after running for 2 months without issue- not blaming coolant compromise- just explaining why I pulled the engine out), and when we disassembled to inspect, checked the balance of the rotating assembly, to find it was not balanced, off by several grams. When I asked Sam about the lack of balancing he stated that balancing a sub 600hp engine is unnecessary and overkill, and that they “check” to make sure the rods are close to weight amongst one another and the crank is within specs. We have always balanced to within less than .5grams, the rods to one another and the crank from end to end. Back on topic.
Pistons and Clearances:
As I stated, we do measure every piston, and ensure the final bore size, after honing allows .005” piston to wall clearance. Every set of Arias Extreme Duty pistons that we have used, have been measured, and are within 3.7760-3.7765 in diameter. This will vary slightly from external temps, so the reason that we compared the used piston to a new piston was to keep the variables constant (temp.).
Jason at Arias clearly explained that the pistons should not collapse/shrink under normal use, especially at such lower mileage. Again, the pistons ARE all measured before machining the cylinders, and their level of consistency is impeccable. So, this becomes a he said/ she said at this point. The pistons collapsed, and you are trying to backpedal because you didn’t catch it. These were not a “freak” piston manufacturing error on the side of Arias.
Last edited by 350zDCalb; Aug 31, 2007 at 09:49 AM.
Thread Starter
Sponsor
builtZmotors
builtZmotors
iTrader: (21)
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,780
Likes: 0
From: Albuquerque, NM
Overheating:
The collapsed piston, the condition of the rings, and the condition of the headgasket imply high temps, not limited to coolant, as explained earlier, exhaust gas temps likely caused this scenario. As the detonation in cylinder #4 supports, on the exhaust valves, some of the hottest points in the combustion chamber, one of the first places to see signs of detonation. We did not say it was SEVERE detonation as GTM shows in their example picture for comparison.
But, the OBVIOUS detonation in cylinder #4 was never disclosed by GTM? None of the findings that support high temps were disclosed by GTM, because this would nullify the original accusation of machining errors being the culprit. Unfortunately, as I refute this I realize that this can and will go back and forth several times, and in the end it will come back to WHO TO BELIEVE?
Some future advice to GTM, if you want to “expose” the faults of an engine, disclose all of your findings initially, because at this point, I find it hard to believe that your findings are honest. Even assuming you did find issues with sealing on the valves in cylinder #1, why did it vacuum test PERFECT and CONSISTANT with the rest of the valves on these heads? {I explained a logical theory with supported evidence above} (I’m sure we fabricated our results you’ll say, he said/she said again)
High EGT’s:
Evidence proves otherwise. Something got hot.
Pistons Hitting the heads:
Sam's explanation for the pistons hitting the heads is also not consistent:
Sam blamed it on:
.0005” extra rod bearing clearance
.003” decking of block (this is a standard- I insure you every engine builder, including your own, takes off this amount or more when redecking the block)
Excessive piston to wall clearance of .001-.002”; also addressed- pistons collapsed allowing larger clearances, but even with this said, still .023” clearance between the rocked, highest portion of the piston, and the cylinder head deck surface..
Bottom line is that something “gave” to allow the piston to kiss the heads. You do not explain this either, your “secret” of running a thicker headgasket is no secret, but it defies simple mathematics. There are hundreds of setups EXACTLY like this around the country, built at several different shops that do not complain of any symptoms.
So a few possibilities;
all of the combinations with the Arias ED pistons and the HKS headgaskets allow slight kissing of the head and it has never been relevant, or
something stretched/heatedexpanded in this engine allowing that event to take place.
We use the 9:1 CR piston, I believe GTM uses their version an 8.5/8.6:1CR? (Ripped off version of the Arias ED piston popularly used by another prominent individual on this forum who has been here since the beginning).
Are the GTM measurement regarding the quench (piston to head clearance based off an entirely different piston? Shorter in vertical height???
Realize that if the piston slammed against the head, there would be palpable distortion, mushrooming, indentations that would be present. Instead there is a mild discoloration. The amount that it was contacting was minimal and likely intermittent under a possibly high load/high heat scenario. At this point, no one knows for sure. We received a disassembled engine and have preformed an autopsy, we didn’t have the privilege of receiving an intact engine, as requested to conduct our testing, and WE STILL TESTED FURTHER than GTM had.
Professionalism:
This began as deception on your part, lying to me, and a friendship going bad, so any “stabs” that we have taken at each other will not fall under the pure professional code. Several times you badmouthed disrespected BZM in the previous threads, so do not attempt to be “high and mighty” at this point. I try to bite my tongue and hide my disgust for you and your operation, but it unfortunately seeps through. You have that effect on people who know the complete history.
To the Z Community:
You saw both sides. GTM posted originally, then we posted our findings, and now they scrambled to come up with additional “originally withheld” information.
My comment about different vendors coming and going on this FORUM was not implying that GTM will close their doors and shut down- no chance. They have an awesome facility, state of the art machinery, a warehouse full of customers’ cars waiting to be worked on- great setup. I was implying that their true reputation is being molded and discovered as time goes on and they will continue to lose trust from the members of this forum. We have been here since early on, with the intention of helping the community. After answering numerous emails, phonecalls, pm’s, etc. about engine advice, experience, etc, I decided to start BuiltZMotors. Why not make a profit off of all of our hard work and my countless dollars invested in much of the R&D?
I started this business to make money, sure, no secret, but I have always tried to go above and beyond and help answer questions, share information and discoveries openly with the community for everyone’s benefit. We were some of the first in the country to build the vq35, and as much as Sam hates the competition, we will be around for long to come.
To Don:
You are in a pickle. You let us know what you’d like to do. We will rebuild the engine and you can decide from there. I will not offer any coverage, warranty, or anything if GTM ever touches this engine again, I’m sure you can understand why. Keep me posted.
Conclusion:
As someone so elegantly said, you can have a multi-million dollar shop with multi million dollar machinery but this in no way insures that they conduct business in an ethical manner.
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth,
-Todd Pickman, BuiltZMotors.com
The collapsed piston, the condition of the rings, and the condition of the headgasket imply high temps, not limited to coolant, as explained earlier, exhaust gas temps likely caused this scenario. As the detonation in cylinder #4 supports, on the exhaust valves, some of the hottest points in the combustion chamber, one of the first places to see signs of detonation. We did not say it was SEVERE detonation as GTM shows in their example picture for comparison.
But, the OBVIOUS detonation in cylinder #4 was never disclosed by GTM? None of the findings that support high temps were disclosed by GTM, because this would nullify the original accusation of machining errors being the culprit. Unfortunately, as I refute this I realize that this can and will go back and forth several times, and in the end it will come back to WHO TO BELIEVE?
Some future advice to GTM, if you want to “expose” the faults of an engine, disclose all of your findings initially, because at this point, I find it hard to believe that your findings are honest. Even assuming you did find issues with sealing on the valves in cylinder #1, why did it vacuum test PERFECT and CONSISTANT with the rest of the valves on these heads? {I explained a logical theory with supported evidence above} (I’m sure we fabricated our results you’ll say, he said/she said again)
High EGT’s:
Evidence proves otherwise. Something got hot.
Pistons Hitting the heads:
Sam's explanation for the pistons hitting the heads is also not consistent:
Sam blamed it on:
.0005” extra rod bearing clearance
.003” decking of block (this is a standard- I insure you every engine builder, including your own, takes off this amount or more when redecking the block)
Excessive piston to wall clearance of .001-.002”; also addressed- pistons collapsed allowing larger clearances, but even with this said, still .023” clearance between the rocked, highest portion of the piston, and the cylinder head deck surface..
Bottom line is that something “gave” to allow the piston to kiss the heads. You do not explain this either, your “secret” of running a thicker headgasket is no secret, but it defies simple mathematics. There are hundreds of setups EXACTLY like this around the country, built at several different shops that do not complain of any symptoms.
So a few possibilities;
all of the combinations with the Arias ED pistons and the HKS headgaskets allow slight kissing of the head and it has never been relevant, or
something stretched/heatedexpanded in this engine allowing that event to take place.
We use the 9:1 CR piston, I believe GTM uses their version an 8.5/8.6:1CR? (Ripped off version of the Arias ED piston popularly used by another prominent individual on this forum who has been here since the beginning).
Are the GTM measurement regarding the quench (piston to head clearance based off an entirely different piston? Shorter in vertical height???
Realize that if the piston slammed against the head, there would be palpable distortion, mushrooming, indentations that would be present. Instead there is a mild discoloration. The amount that it was contacting was minimal and likely intermittent under a possibly high load/high heat scenario. At this point, no one knows for sure. We received a disassembled engine and have preformed an autopsy, we didn’t have the privilege of receiving an intact engine, as requested to conduct our testing, and WE STILL TESTED FURTHER than GTM had.
Professionalism:
This began as deception on your part, lying to me, and a friendship going bad, so any “stabs” that we have taken at each other will not fall under the pure professional code. Several times you badmouthed disrespected BZM in the previous threads, so do not attempt to be “high and mighty” at this point. I try to bite my tongue and hide my disgust for you and your operation, but it unfortunately seeps through. You have that effect on people who know the complete history.
To the Z Community:
You saw both sides. GTM posted originally, then we posted our findings, and now they scrambled to come up with additional “originally withheld” information.
My comment about different vendors coming and going on this FORUM was not implying that GTM will close their doors and shut down- no chance. They have an awesome facility, state of the art machinery, a warehouse full of customers’ cars waiting to be worked on- great setup. I was implying that their true reputation is being molded and discovered as time goes on and they will continue to lose trust from the members of this forum. We have been here since early on, with the intention of helping the community. After answering numerous emails, phonecalls, pm’s, etc. about engine advice, experience, etc, I decided to start BuiltZMotors. Why not make a profit off of all of our hard work and my countless dollars invested in much of the R&D?
I started this business to make money, sure, no secret, but I have always tried to go above and beyond and help answer questions, share information and discoveries openly with the community for everyone’s benefit. We were some of the first in the country to build the vq35, and as much as Sam hates the competition, we will be around for long to come.
To Don:
You are in a pickle. You let us know what you’d like to do. We will rebuild the engine and you can decide from there. I will not offer any coverage, warranty, or anything if GTM ever touches this engine again, I’m sure you can understand why. Keep me posted.
Conclusion:
As someone so elegantly said, you can have a multi-million dollar shop with multi million dollar machinery but this in no way insures that they conduct business in an ethical manner.
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth,
-Todd Pickman, BuiltZMotors.com
Last edited by 350zDCalb; Aug 31, 2007 at 09:50 AM.
According to TOU:
15.) REHASHING
When a post is locked or deleted or when member account is suspended and/or banned, it is for a justified reason. Do NOT make another post in continuation of the locked/deleted posts or your account is subject to being banned. Do NOT make a new post demanding explanation of why a post was locked or deleted. If you would like explanation of a closed or deleted post, PM one of the moderators.
Now...I have not chimed in at all in the previous thread, because honestly, there was no need to. Everyone who has been on this forum long enough knows which shop I would go for, and for good reason. However, Todd, I have nothing against you at all, as I have never dealt with you. I value all the information that has been shared on this forum since the day I joined, therefore I will not delete this thread. I will not take sides, as good info needs to be shared. I, however, much like 99% of the members, don't know engines to your (and GTM's) extent. Whatever I, or we, say, is only based off of trust for the vendors/members.
However, being a vendor, please respect the forum rules. That's the only basis I'm acting on. I know for a FACT that Sam is a respectable man, because I have dealt with him extensively. And since I don't know you, I will give you the benefit of the doubt. But ZU L8R has made a decision to close the original thread for good reason, so that's it. Leave it be.
Now that this thread is locked, I hope you guys can take it to PM's. All that needs to be said has been said. Now it has turned into the "BZM Camp" vs. the "GTM Camp". I already know that the "BZM Camp" has sent PM's to someone in the "GTM Camp" calling him a moron, etc. This is what we try to avoid. If it keeps going, we will have to start taking action. And trust me, we'll know.
So please guys. Focus on Don. He's the guy who's out tons of money. Do yourselves a favor and take it to PM's. You are both respectable vendors, and I'm sure you want to remain that way.
Thanks.
15.) REHASHING
When a post is locked or deleted or when member account is suspended and/or banned, it is for a justified reason. Do NOT make another post in continuation of the locked/deleted posts or your account is subject to being banned. Do NOT make a new post demanding explanation of why a post was locked or deleted. If you would like explanation of a closed or deleted post, PM one of the moderators.
Now...I have not chimed in at all in the previous thread, because honestly, there was no need to. Everyone who has been on this forum long enough knows which shop I would go for, and for good reason. However, Todd, I have nothing against you at all, as I have never dealt with you. I value all the information that has been shared on this forum since the day I joined, therefore I will not delete this thread. I will not take sides, as good info needs to be shared. I, however, much like 99% of the members, don't know engines to your (and GTM's) extent. Whatever I, or we, say, is only based off of trust for the vendors/members.
However, being a vendor, please respect the forum rules. That's the only basis I'm acting on. I know for a FACT that Sam is a respectable man, because I have dealt with him extensively. And since I don't know you, I will give you the benefit of the doubt. But ZU L8R has made a decision to close the original thread for good reason, so that's it. Leave it be.
Now that this thread is locked, I hope you guys can take it to PM's. All that needs to be said has been said. Now it has turned into the "BZM Camp" vs. the "GTM Camp". I already know that the "BZM Camp" has sent PM's to someone in the "GTM Camp" calling him a moron, etc. This is what we try to avoid. If it keeps going, we will have to start taking action. And trust me, we'll know.
So please guys. Focus on Don. He's the guy who's out tons of money. Do yourselves a favor and take it to PM's. You are both respectable vendors, and I'm sure you want to remain that way.
Thanks.
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