I think I know who you are going to. Do me a favor and do not post the shop. They do not belong in this 'battle.'

Truthfully, if you're experience was so horrible, you should have addressed it with Sam BEFORE you left, not months afterwards. I have seen very few, if any?, complaints with GTM, and I trust their work. We have two people locally that RAVE about GTMs work and couldn't be more pleased. You know I have absolutely no affiliation with GTM and cannot be viewed as a 'nuthugger' supporting his shop. This is simply based on experiences I have read and heard about.

Finding a tuner in Vegas is DANGEROUS. Regardless of how good this new tuner may be for Fbodys, keep in mind they do not have experience with a VQ or Utec to my knowledge. I trust the shop and have met them, great guys that do amazing work, but I will still be wary of being tuned by them. I have warned everyone to stay away in our market, seeing as to how I have not seen one good experience with any tuners and a VQ here. Believe me, I've searched.

The best we have are our Socal Shops and a maybe a few in AZ. Of the FI VQs in Vegas, I can think of only 4 tuners, and I trust those tuners: GTM, Relentless, Jim Wolf, and one in AZ I cannot think the name of (In Phoenix).

Either way, gl tomorrow.

 

Hi Kevin,

I've had my share of bad experiences with shops before, so I feel like I might be able to shed a bit of light on Sam's operation, based on your comments.

From what I gather, one of the most "irritating" issues was the time spent and you had to wait. Not trying to put you down or anything, so don't get me wrong, but I doubt you have ever ran any business that is based off of dealing with people. Everyone has expectations, not just you. Yes, we are all the "main actor" in our own lives, but as a business owner, you have to make every one of your customers equal. If I'm bringing my car in today, and yours was supposed to be delivered today, but had some issues that needed to be worked out, would you want him to drop your car to work on mine? Same thing. Sometimes you're the one getting the benefit, sometimes getting the shaft. That's just how life is. But he didn't give you the shaft. He still worked on your car to the best of his abilities given the situation of your car. Quality and Time Spent have an inversed relationship most of the time. Modifying cars, especially when you are as serious as going F/I on a non-FI vehicle, will magnify that trait of the business.

Secondly, GTM is not cheap. I understand that. Neither is a PS3. Why would people opt for a PS3 instead of a PS2? Because the graphics are better. Because the games are newer. Same thing with GTM. You knew they weren't cheap right off the bat, but you still went because you want the best. (Will get to that in point 3). You paid $500 for a few hours of tuning. But IF there was an issue and he had to tune longer, believe me, he would have stuck with the $500 quote. That's his tune cost across the board, and I'm sure that was explained to you prior to working on your car. My engine was the first 4.24L stroker GTM did (even before he did his), and to create a brand new map for my Fcon, he took approximately a week. How much did I get charged? $500. If yours took 3 days instead of 3 hours, you wouldn't be complaining. But, there is no way for GTM (or any other shop that have never worked on your car) to know that prior to going in. Honestly, I would rather pay "by the work" than "by the hour". "By the hour", it feels like there's always a hand in your pocket. You never know how long they might take or overcharge you when they are working on something else. "By the work", I will know going in how much EXACTLY I will be spending.

Third point, as referenced in my last paragraph, is what you consider "the best". This is when I found your statements and actions a little confusing. The general public get their cars retuned for 2 reasons only: 1) More power, or 2) More safety. To me, it sounds like you were going for reason #1. I'm sure you know the VQ enough to know that 420-430rwtq is already at the threshold of the stock block, so if you wanted more power, then you should have told him right off the bat to go more aggressive on the tune, and therefore risk the motor blowing even quicker. But I doubt that, because as you said, you didn't have enough cash flow for an upgraded exhaust. So if he did go more aggressive and your motor blows in a week, you'd be complaining here on the boards as well. So either way, Sam loses right? So let's assume you wanted reason #2 (safety) instead. That's exactly what he did. There are always trade offs when you modify your car to this extent. And that's just something not just you, but all of us hardcore car guys have to deal with. If you wanted a more aggressive tune instead, then I'm sure Sam would tune it for you again, but this time, not stand behind his work as your block would be a grenade sans the pin.

After reading your last post, it seems like you were already happy with your original tune. With you stating that it made more power, and already lasted longer than most other stock blocks. So if I may ask, why did you decide to get a retune? Why mess with something that works? Were you looking for more power, or more safety? If you don't even know what you wanted, and just wanted to get it tuned by Sam because "people say he's good", even a "GTM nuthugger" like myself would believe that to be very ignorant.

Honestly, I would always like to know what people think of my shops. I'd like to know as much as possible. That's why people are on this forum. I'd like to know if Sam things my previous shops were crap, and why. I'd also like to know if other shop owners think Sam's work is crap, and why. We, as these fragile toy owners, always want to know more. To believe or not to believe, that's our discretion. So whatever Sam told you about your previous shops, that's just more bullets for your arsenal. Whether that fits your gun or not, it's your call. Sam has always prided himself on letting the owners know everything.

He still calls me from time to time even now to see how my car is doing, and to ask me my opinion on the parts he had used for my car. To me, that says a lot.

Please don't misunderstand, I'm not bashing you in any way. Just trying to help you see where we all make sacrifices and that sometimes, hey, **** happens. But the only thing you had to pay out of your pocket was an extra 6 hours in the day (as you claimed that he wasn't working on your car). I'd trade 6 hours anyday for an engine that's gonna last longer. But of course it's your call. It's your car and money. All we can chime in about are our experiences with GTM, and maybe another side of argument, with valid reasons and/or proof backing it up. That's what this forum is for.

Just my 2 cents. Good luck with your new tune in Vegas.

Alex

 

What the H#LL kevin! I'm not trying to take sides here, but come on... You seem like you are just throwing a fit... Dude, did you expect to have a freaking 500whp car after "detuning" to 91 octane gas????? What will get it through your head that going from 93 octane AGGRESSIVE tune to 91 octane SAFE tune will loose horsepower???????????? This is a common sense!!!

 

Also, Kevin. She is there to assist us. She will warranty what SHOULD be warrantied, but she will not do work that shouldn't have been allowed. She gives us less grief for our modifications, she does not simple overlook the mods. We've been fortunate with such an understanding service writer, but she will not and cannot be taken advantage of. I remember when one of our guys blew an AC line. She would not warranty it because his CAI rubbed the hole into the AC line and it was more than evident. That is an understanding service writer, someone who is willing to help, but not at the cost of her job, reputation, dealership, etc. Even my personal mechanic wouldn't warranty your O2 sensors.

$500 seems like a fair price to tune. Especially when it comes to a car like yours. You simple cannot want a safe tune and a specific power level, there must be some sort of compromise. All in all, Kevin I believe you may be on your own for this one. Sorry. I remember you comparing your GTM tune to Robert's and complaining. His tune is more on the aggresive and that is what he wanted. You wanted safe tune, I assume, that helped relieve your fear of blowing the motor, which you have been warned about many times by many different people.

Oh, PS. CONGRATS Devil! I know you've been waiting a while for this. I'm glad to hear everything went so well. I remember a few months ago when you were all excited about going to GTM and gettin that Bad *** M'f'in Fcon installed. Congrats again dude and sorry for the absolute hijack

 

From my inquiries at other shops a tune typically costs $400-$500. So $500 is a fairly normal price.

And $500 for a "Tune" (IE not time) can work to your advantage too. A lot of times a tune really can take all day or even several days depending on the situation.

If a person gets 2 days of tune and only pays $500... he's going to feel really lucky.

Sam is tuning my Z on the MoTec right now. (His first MoTec Z tune) And even though I paid a boat load of money to do it, I know for a fact he's way into the red on this project.

My Z is a good example of paying a firm fixed price for a tune and getting way, way more tune time than will cover the costs. (~1 week cumulative tuning time due to a learning curve)

It just happens. And its not surprising either. Tuning is not like manufacturing or stamping the same part out over and over again. Tuning is like a custom paint job. Some jobs take more/less time than others.

 

Wowsers.

Nice write-up.

 

+1 Bazillion.

Considering what the car was like prior to arriving at GTM, I would've been ecstatic to get my car back the way it did come back.

 

i understand what your saying, and your post does come off sincere and understanding, i was looking for a safe 91 tune and i knew i would lose power and i have not said anything about the power levels in this thread thanks for your post it does shed some light. As far as your experiance with the shop im happy for you but then again you have to think about how much money you spent there. If you spent that much money at a shop i owned i would treat you like royalty as well. But it seemed since i just needed a tune and only spending 500 i wont get nerly that kind of customer service and i havent. I guess i'm not as good with words as others are but my GF was with me to and she has been to other shops with me also and when we left there and she saw how much time was actually spent on the car and the car would still not start when hot she was like you have got to be Fking kidding me all this time and you pay him and it still doesnt start so tell me again why we spent our time driving out here? I told her because he was supposed to be the BEST. maybe i feel this way because my expectations were a little to high, maybe if i just thought of this place as just another shop i wouldnt have cared so much but i put them on a pedestal and maybe that wsent fare to them.

and Stan i have no wire that was broken just the heater in the O2 sensor is bad and she did tell me she would warrenty it. I told her what was wrong and if she could help me great if not i completely understand and she said dont worry i'll take care of it.i dont know why your getting involved in this as far as that shop goes. why even bring it up? she and i have a perfectly fine understanding i did a favor for her and she helped me out, nothing rubbed through my wire or anything like that, just the heater element went out in it. So where did this broken wire thing come from. if you want i can take a pic of the sensor and wire right now with the check engine light on still from the bad o2 sensor NOT broken wire.

Yes i knew it would lose power i'm not an idiot and none of this is about the power loss, have i once mentioned it, NO. other people have. im talking about the customer service and time spent on my car. Why wasent the hot start fixed? that was a specific problem when i went in, he said because the O2 sensor was bad he could not fix the hot start. Well guess what i still have that bad O2 sensor and the shop here fixed the hot start!! the car is also making 410WHP at 8 lbs. i went to the shop first thing this morning because they called and asked if i wanted it done earlier since someone cancelled.

And SAM i wasent really going to even post anything, i know i made a comment but i wasent going to go into anything but you did, i knew what would happen. i have had numerous pm's from people about your shop but no one wants to post anything because they dont want to get hammered like i am.
Look i know you do good quality work and i dont think the 500 is a crazy amount of money, but you could have fixed the hot start and the O2 sensor could have been addressed earlier and a few other things that i posted oh and there is no reason to talk down about other shops as the tuner this morning didnt have any question about it, it was ok lets hook it up and see what it looks like and go from there.

 

what do you mean considering what the car was like before GTM? the car ran fine.

 

why were you in need of GTM's services then if it was running so great?

 

the car was tuned for 93 in texas where i bought the car and i wanted to have it tuned for 91. I looked on here for the best shop that was close and i went there. It's wierd because even he said it was too aggressive for 93 and was a ticking time bomb but it's been fine for quite a while and still fine now. i dont think i have used the tune at all other than driving back to vegas. It just spools slower than the other tune and doesnt have that extra kick, but that is my problem not Sam's and this is not about the power

 

I'm still confused.

he gave you what you wanted - a safe tune for 91 octane and finished your car up the same day which is pretty good considering the shop had never before even seen your car.

There's a lot of shops out there that having never seen your car, will just throw it on the dyno and start tuning with no idea what's really been done to the car and no inspection.

 

and the hot start? the talking down of the other shop? a 2-3 min road tune? Not mentioning the O2 sensor until the end of the day?

 

I wouldn't know because I only can go off of what's been said here, but maybe a 2-3 min road tune was all that was needed to confirm something or make a minor adjustment. Most shops actually don't road tune after they tune on a dyno.

The hot start issues sounds like it was because of the O2 sensor which you said you'll get handled by nissan's warrenty.

maybe they didn't find out about the O2 sensor until later in the day and just didn't have enough time in the day to do work on your car AND get it tuned AND make their other customers happy too

 

Could the reason why your whp increased from the time you went to GTM be because you upgraded your exhaust system like Sam recommended?

 

The overly aggressive timing and the lack of scaled injectors wasn't it? Sam stated that whoever 'tuned' the vehicle before wasn't entirely familiar with the UTEC and what it could and couldn't do.

Plus, what Sentry said. If it ran fine, why did you bring it in?

 

umm no, i'm installing the exhaust today and the car was not run on his tune.

 

Look this is not going to go anywhere, i should have never said anything just like those other people havent because of this reason so sorry, sam is a brilliant tuner and i'm just some crazy guy that knows nothing and wants everything and is a hassle to deal with. Like others have said, find a shop you trust and just let them do the work thats what i was trying to do but it just didnt turn out in my favor so i've moved on and have found other shops to try and evebn though these guys gae me chit for having an import they were nice and fun and were just messing around. lets see if their tune lasts

 

I'm not trying to start another arguement with you but why would you tune your car today with your old exhaust and then install a completely different, much higher flowing true dual (GReddy Evo TT) exhaust tomorrow?? Are you going to re-tune again tomorrow??

 

i am going back, i wanted to see what the difference is between the exhausts. i want to know if the AF ratio changes and the power change.