interesting bad built motor thread on G35driver.......
10-27-2008, 04:40 AM
#181
There is a fine line between evidence and interpretation of the evidence. Even experts can disagree on what the evidence proves or disproves. I do know enough about quality control in general to know that when things go wrong, it usually isn't just one thing that failed, but a series of events that indicate process failures at multiple points, and all are usually not the fault of a single entity. So that's where the finger pointing commences. I am not an expert in this field and I am not making a judgment in this case (and though I have an opinion based on the photos I've seen, it matters very little, except in the end to see if it matches what the experts determine to be "the truth"; and from that I learn).
There is also a fine line between "professional courtesy" and "hiding the truth". Until you are in a position where you are building a career in a field where the world is very small and you cannot easily jump ship if things go wrong, I wouldn't be so quick to judge those that choose discretion and mistake that for a lack of integrity. These guys working together means a stronger VQ community and better products for all of us. If the shops involved maintain a level of professionalism and for the sake of the customers, recognize that accepting financial responsibility does not necessarily equate to an admission of guilt, I think the outcome can still be a positive one for all involved. Both shops have put out great cars. Both can continue to do so in the future. Working together to recognize how to improve the process so this type of event is less likely to occur is the best way to move forward.
Best of luck to GTM and MRC. Clearly there is room for improvement.
There is also a fine line between "professional courtesy" and "hiding the truth". Until you are in a position where you are building a career in a field where the world is very small and you cannot easily jump ship if things go wrong, I wouldn't be so quick to judge those that choose discretion and mistake that for a lack of integrity. These guys working together means a stronger VQ community and better products for all of us. If the shops involved maintain a level of professionalism and for the sake of the customers, recognize that accepting financial responsibility does not necessarily equate to an admission of guilt, I think the outcome can still be a positive one for all involved. Both shops have put out great cars. Both can continue to do so in the future. Working together to recognize how to improve the process so this type of event is less likely to occur is the best way to move forward.
Best of luck to GTM and MRC. Clearly there is room for improvement.
10-27-2008, 05:16 AM
#183
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Gus, I made a post to the same effect on the G35 forum, with much less words. There were absolutely no comments to my post. I agreee with you 100% here. You and I both know, what happend is easy to recognize. What actully caused it to happen...good luck. Without semen and CSI, it will be difficult.
What Gus said is not a "cop out". The 3rd party will only deliver findings. Causality will be arguable even further. I hope all is well for you friend.
What Gus said is not a "cop out". The 3rd party will only deliver findings. Causality will be arguable even further. I hope all is well for you friend.
btw how are things on the west coast and the move?
10-27-2008, 05:34 AM
#184
The engine report belongs to VINO.
My first motor failed and since that day even til today ive been stuck in the middle with no car that was some time back in may I believe. As all of you read I got another motor about a month ago so from may til a month ago the z sat with no motor and then that failed.
My engine will have a failure report soon. When it does I will post til then I just keep reading everyones thoughts and speculations
My first motor failed and since that day even til today ive been stuck in the middle with no car that was some time back in may I believe. As all of you read I got another motor about a month ago so from may til a month ago the z sat with no motor and then that failed.
My engine will have a failure report soon. When it does I will post til then I just keep reading everyones thoughts and speculations
that sucks so much man, I am sorry
and your second engine failed on start up right?
10-27-2008, 06:17 AM
#185
The engine report belongs to VINO.
My first motor failed and since that day even til today ive been stuck in the middle with no car that was some time back in may I believe. As all of you read I got another motor about a month ago so from may til a month ago the z sat with no motor and then that failed.
My engine will have a failure report soon. When it does I will post til then I just keep reading everyones thoughts and speculations
My first motor failed and since that day even til today ive been stuck in the middle with no car that was some time back in may I believe. As all of you read I got another motor about a month ago so from may til a month ago the z sat with no motor and then that failed.
My engine will have a failure report soon. When it does I will post til then I just keep reading everyones thoughts and speculations
10-27-2008, 06:25 AM
#186
Hold on... That piston was only one of the issues with that motor.
How do you explain the other findings in the report? Maybe I missed it in his long posts, but I didn't see Sam address these specific issues listed in this 3rd party report by Diamond Motors:
http://www.kptechnologies.com/g35dri...Cblueprint.doc
Now granted... I'm no mechanic or expert in engine building, but I'm confused as to how the above things listed in the report could be caused by a bad tune. Please explain.
How do you explain the other findings in the report? Maybe I missed it in his long posts, but I didn't see Sam address these specific issues listed in this 3rd party report by Diamond Motors:
http://www.kptechnologies.com/g35dri...Cblueprint.doc
Now granted... I'm no mechanic or expert in engine building, but I'm confused as to how the above things listed in the report could be caused by a bad tune. Please explain.
Agreed. A "TUNE" does not cause this type of problem.
10-27-2008, 06:26 AM
#187
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as per G35Driver...
Originally Posted by Julian
Romey's Motor:
Romey's Motor:
Some time in June of 2008 or thereabouts, Romey had installed methenol injection and requested a retune on his motor to 18 psi from the 15 he was running. His objective was a safe street tune around 18psi without using race gas. On the dyno upon raising the boost to 17 psi, the coolant blew out of the coolant overflow tank.Classic signs of headlift. We informed Romey of this, and stopped the tuning process.
My tech perhaps thought it may have been an air bubble and proceeded to bleed the system.The car ran fine at 12-14 psi, no head lift following this. Romey requested and insisted on having the car back to drive around for a few days for testing. in fact I believe it was around memorial day weekend.
Romey picked up the car and drove it for several days, I can not be responsible or held accountable for what took place after that, as I do not know what his driving habbits were. And I do not know if Rome was 100% honest with me from this point on and since, however I am going with what we were TOLD by the customer, and have to take that for the truth.. Romey however informed me that the coolant was dissapearing after long drives on low boost.
We brought the car in and began pulling the motor. At this time we called Sam on 3 way with Romey.Sam immidiately suggested tuning as usual. He offerd a few other explenations as to why the heads would lift when the psi was raised, usual culprits, including the mythical 14,000 mile HKS headgasket...
Upon opening the motor we found only one piston to be scraping the sidewalls of the cylinder. There were no immidiate signs of detonation/pitting on the pistons or rod end bearings. (the rod end bearings were confirmed to show "Normal wear" as GTM's later inspection report would show.This contradicts any detonation) The pistons did have a STEAM cleaned look to them, either form the meth or the coolant from the headgasket.
We utilized a Snap-On digital TQ wrench to un TQ the heads, this gave us varying TQ numbers I will post later but there was fluctuations of over 50-60 ft lbs in TQ ratings to break the studs. We also found with GTM motors that the actual studs always appear to have been over TQ'd into the block, rather than hand snug.
From this point on, the motor was sent to GTM for isnpection.Perhaps Sam would be willing to post up the entire reprot he came up with..
Around July 4th weekend, my opened dialog with Sam stopped, and he stopped returning my calls and messages. I will get copies of my cell phone bill to verify. However form this point on Romey dealt directly with Sam as a buffer. From what Romey told me, sam would NOT warranty the Cams, perhaps Romey could post up to clarify this, because at this point I honetly do not know who to believe.
Sam also told Romey that his crank was no good, due to the pulley being loose and turning the end of the crank "blue".
I can attest the pulley was NEVER loose and the crank is blueish at the end form the machining process as all BRAND NEW OEM CRANKS ARE...I can varify with pictures at a later date..Also had the pulley been loose, the keyway on the crank would have been chewed up, this was not the case.
So I was told by romey, that Sam insisted on selling him a new crank, however Sam never provided any Magnaflux reports, and measurments or specs on the existing crank and simply went by face value of his visual inspection..a big NO NO in engine building...From this point on I have no clue what transpired between romey and Sam, as Sam would not speak with me, In fact I even called him a few weeks ago when we recieve Romeys new motor, in an attempt to clean the slate.Sam however never returned the call. I will post up that phone bill also to verify my story..
Romey's NEW MOTOR:
got it back form GTM fully assembled minus the timing chain and cover. We did that install here, and installed the motor in the car. The car started and ran on 3 cylinders. We did a compression test and found one bank to be of much lower compression. We did a leak down and found that the exhaust valves on that particular bank were hanging opened and leaking air.
Contated Romey, who contacted Sam, since Sam was not speaking with me. We arranged a 3 way conference call, between Romey, Sam and I. Romey informed me that Sam was VERY SPECIFIC that he only wanted to speak about the current issue and would NOT discuss any of the past issues we had with his motors or him. I agreed to speak with Sam. Sam's first reply was that we mis timed the motor and bent valves. I assured him this was NOT the case and that we had found that his tolerances on the cam to valve clearances were all over 10 tohusandths to tight. My tech is one of the most methotical and accurate persons to ever set the cam lash I have found.Even some of the professional heads we recieved from other shops did not have as accurate lashes as the ones my tech has set. My mototr is VERY quiet on the valve train as a result.
Long story short, we agreed to send the motor to a 3rd party for teardown.Whoever messed up would fix it fully on their dime. Sam insisted on Sharif. We felt that Sahrif being a GTM customer and friend of Sam would not give us an accurate assesment of the issue, and would hide or attempt to hide things in Sams favor. We wanted no influence from GTM or Sam involved in the teardown.
Romey opted for an engine builder in NJ, who has worked for major race car teams and has set world records in the Import Drace Race scene. We shipped the motor out there and are awaiting the results.
To date we have heard that Sam has been calling the engine builder multiple times during the day, for what reason we do not know...We dropeed the motor off and have had contact with him once thus far.Preliminary break downs have suggested that the cams were timed properly on our part.This would clear MRC fully of any wrongdoing, and all costs incurred would be responsibility of Romey and Sam from this point on...
allow me to clarify, cause there were comments about me "throwing Romey under the bus" by some disgruntled persons on My350Z.com. I am NOT in any way throwing Romey under the bus, however I am simply stating all of the VARIABLES that may possibly be brought up by both educated and uneducated parties that fell they need to throw their two cents in this thread... I am simply acting upon what
A) My observations were at the time.
B)what honestly and actually transpired
C)what my customer relayed to me
D)what my observations and conclusions were at the time.
In no way did i discredit Romey, I am simply utilizing what information he supplied to me at the time. If Romey is being 100% honest with me and sam is not for me to decide. However i have a certain obligation to stand behind him and take what he has told me for gospel and defend him as my customer.
As far as Joe aka USM whatever...you wer eoffered a resolution to your issues and you declined and attempted to defraud me out of $700 for two small door dings in your door that were fixed for $125. i know for a fact you tried to get me to pay for paint for some aftermarket parts on your car..
Romey's Motor:
Some time in June of 2008 or thereabouts, Romey had installed methenol injection and requested a retune on his motor to 18 psi from the 15 he was running. His objective was a safe street tune around 18psi without using race gas. On the dyno upon raising the boost to 17 psi, the coolant blew out of the coolant overflow tank.Classic signs of headlift. We informed Romey of this, and stopped the tuning process.
My tech perhaps thought it may have been an air bubble and proceeded to bleed the system.The car ran fine at 12-14 psi, no head lift following this. Romey requested and insisted on having the car back to drive around for a few days for testing. in fact I believe it was around memorial day weekend.
Romey picked up the car and drove it for several days, I can not be responsible or held accountable for what took place after that, as I do not know what his driving habbits were. And I do not know if Rome was 100% honest with me from this point on and since, however I am going with what we were TOLD by the customer, and have to take that for the truth.. Romey however informed me that the coolant was dissapearing after long drives on low boost.
We brought the car in and began pulling the motor. At this time we called Sam on 3 way with Romey.Sam immidiately suggested tuning as usual. He offerd a few other explenations as to why the heads would lift when the psi was raised, usual culprits, including the mythical 14,000 mile HKS headgasket...
Upon opening the motor we found only one piston to be scraping the sidewalls of the cylinder. There were no immidiate signs of detonation/pitting on the pistons or rod end bearings. (the rod end bearings were confirmed to show "Normal wear" as GTM's later inspection report would show.This contradicts any detonation) The pistons did have a STEAM cleaned look to them, either form the meth or the coolant from the headgasket.
We utilized a Snap-On digital TQ wrench to un TQ the heads, this gave us varying TQ numbers I will post later but there was fluctuations of over 50-60 ft lbs in TQ ratings to break the studs. We also found with GTM motors that the actual studs always appear to have been over TQ'd into the block, rather than hand snug.
From this point on, the motor was sent to GTM for isnpection.Perhaps Sam would be willing to post up the entire reprot he came up with..
Around July 4th weekend, my opened dialog with Sam stopped, and he stopped returning my calls and messages. I will get copies of my cell phone bill to verify. However form this point on Romey dealt directly with Sam as a buffer. From what Romey told me, sam would NOT warranty the Cams, perhaps Romey could post up to clarify this, because at this point I honetly do not know who to believe.
Sam also told Romey that his crank was no good, due to the pulley being loose and turning the end of the crank "blue".
I can attest the pulley was NEVER loose and the crank is blueish at the end form the machining process as all BRAND NEW OEM CRANKS ARE...I can varify with pictures at a later date..Also had the pulley been loose, the keyway on the crank would have been chewed up, this was not the case.
So I was told by romey, that Sam insisted on selling him a new crank, however Sam never provided any Magnaflux reports, and measurments or specs on the existing crank and simply went by face value of his visual inspection..a big NO NO in engine building...From this point on I have no clue what transpired between romey and Sam, as Sam would not speak with me, In fact I even called him a few weeks ago when we recieve Romeys new motor, in an attempt to clean the slate.Sam however never returned the call. I will post up that phone bill also to verify my story..
Romey's NEW MOTOR:
got it back form GTM fully assembled minus the timing chain and cover. We did that install here, and installed the motor in the car. The car started and ran on 3 cylinders. We did a compression test and found one bank to be of much lower compression. We did a leak down and found that the exhaust valves on that particular bank were hanging opened and leaking air.
Contated Romey, who contacted Sam, since Sam was not speaking with me. We arranged a 3 way conference call, between Romey, Sam and I. Romey informed me that Sam was VERY SPECIFIC that he only wanted to speak about the current issue and would NOT discuss any of the past issues we had with his motors or him. I agreed to speak with Sam. Sam's first reply was that we mis timed the motor and bent valves. I assured him this was NOT the case and that we had found that his tolerances on the cam to valve clearances were all over 10 tohusandths to tight. My tech is one of the most methotical and accurate persons to ever set the cam lash I have found.Even some of the professional heads we recieved from other shops did not have as accurate lashes as the ones my tech has set. My mototr is VERY quiet on the valve train as a result.
Long story short, we agreed to send the motor to a 3rd party for teardown.Whoever messed up would fix it fully on their dime. Sam insisted on Sharif. We felt that Sahrif being a GTM customer and friend of Sam would not give us an accurate assesment of the issue, and would hide or attempt to hide things in Sams favor. We wanted no influence from GTM or Sam involved in the teardown.
Romey opted for an engine builder in NJ, who has worked for major race car teams and has set world records in the Import Drace Race scene. We shipped the motor out there and are awaiting the results.
To date we have heard that Sam has been calling the engine builder multiple times during the day, for what reason we do not know...We dropeed the motor off and have had contact with him once thus far.Preliminary break downs have suggested that the cams were timed properly on our part.This would clear MRC fully of any wrongdoing, and all costs incurred would be responsibility of Romey and Sam from this point on...
allow me to clarify, cause there were comments about me "throwing Romey under the bus" by some disgruntled persons on My350Z.com. I am NOT in any way throwing Romey under the bus, however I am simply stating all of the VARIABLES that may possibly be brought up by both educated and uneducated parties that fell they need to throw their two cents in this thread... I am simply acting upon what
A) My observations were at the time.
B)what honestly and actually transpired
C)what my customer relayed to me
D)what my observations and conclusions were at the time.
In no way did i discredit Romey, I am simply utilizing what information he supplied to me at the time. If Romey is being 100% honest with me and sam is not for me to decide. However i have a certain obligation to stand behind him and take what he has told me for gospel and defend him as my customer.
As far as Joe aka USM whatever...you wer eoffered a resolution to your issues and you declined and attempted to defraud me out of $700 for two small door dings in your door that were fixed for $125. i know for a fact you tried to get me to pay for paint for some aftermarket parts on your car..
Last edited by r0mey; 10-27-2008 at 08:58 AM.
10-27-2008, 07:01 AM
#188
The engine report belongs to VINO.
My first motor failed and since that day even til today ive been stuck in the middle with no car that was some time back in may I believe. As all of you read I got another motor about a month ago so from may til a month ago the z sat with no motor and then that failed.
My engine will have a failure report soon. When it does I will post til then I just keep reading everyones thoughts and speculations
My first motor failed and since that day even til today ive been stuck in the middle with no car that was some time back in may I believe. As all of you read I got another motor about a month ago so from may til a month ago the z sat with no motor and then that failed.
My engine will have a failure report soon. When it does I will post til then I just keep reading everyones thoughts and speculations
-Eric (still waiting for GTM to provide a response to the 3rd party report on Vino's motor)
10-27-2008, 07:12 AM
#189
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Not to sound like i am accusing anyone of anything, but how easy would it be to reset timing before sending a motor out for inspection? I mention this not as an accusation like i said, but just as a reminder that its very easy to influence some of these results. I doubt anyone will ever know fully what happened here.... maybe we should just start a paypal donation fund or something for the guy w/ out his Z through all of this.
10-27-2008, 07:16 AM
#190
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^Maybe then we can start one for me so I can get a built motor with all the fixing .
But, seriously, if everyone lives up to their words, then it will take car of itself.
.But, seriously, if everyone lives up to their words, then it will take car of itself.
10-27-2008, 07:33 AM
#191
Man I have looked at both companies websites to possibly buy something from. I dont know the history of eachothers character and I could honestly care less. But one side is providing factual evidence and 1 is providing character attacks, doesn't look good at all...
10-27-2008, 10:50 AM
#194
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This entire situation is confusing because of the way the information has been presented.
The engine report posted is Vino's motors inspection. This engine ran for an unspecified amount of time 4 quarts low on oil. I'm not an engine builder, but I do have a mechanical background and I know that when you run a high performance machine with almost no oil things heat up, change size, and rub. To what degree I don't know, but this HAS to be taken in to consideration when looking at the component measurements and pictures in the report that Julian has posted. Julian also hand picked the inspector on Vino's motor (assumption) so there "may" be some bias in that report. The inspector for Rome's motor was picked by Rome and is considered an unbiased third party by both GTM and MRC.
**************************EDIT******************************
Julian at MRC has stated that the motor burnt 4 quarts of oil over time, not all at once and that the motor was never 4 quarts low at one time. This is obviously a contridiction to what GTM is saying.
**************************EDIT******************************
Although Julian posted the report on Vino's motor most of the conversation has been centered around Rome's car. There is NO 3rd party information available about Rome's car (yet). The reason why the 3rd party information about Rome's car is important is because Rome's car was NOT driven X amount of miles 4 quarts low on oil. The results of this inspection will have much more merit, as there are far fewer unknowns.
In Vino's case it is easy for GTM to point fingers, and honestly I can't blame them. If I'm an engine builder and I hear one of my motors has been ran without oil I would fight tooth and nail to not warranty it, as that is considered abuse/neglect. No engine builder has control of what the internals of a motor will do running 4 quarts low on oil. In fact, dealerships won't offer warranty on your stock motor if you take it in for repair and they find it has no oil! Now, if the motor is burning oil, that is a COMPLETELY different subject, but as the owner of a boosted car it is the owners responsibility to check and maintain oil levels. The burning oil issue should have been fixed by GTM BEFORE it was able to cause more substantial damage.
Romes 2nd GTM motor, on the other hand was never driven. It would be much harder for GTM to "wash their hands" of this motor. There is no way one could perceive that the motor was abused. It was never tuned and never street/track driven by MRC or the customer.
The oil squirter issue isn't confusing at all. There was an obvious mistake made in the assembly and GTM has offered to send replacement squirters (although, I too wonder about what will keep the piston from breaking the replacement squirter - are they a low profile design or something???)
I have been accused of being "biased" in my posts already and hope that my efforts to clearify these points is not seen that way. I haven't chosen sides, I've just summarized the information posted in an attempt to inform people what is what in this thread. I, like many others, have no horse in this race, and I stand to gain/lose nothing if either shop were to close their doors tomorrow. To the best of my knowledge these are "facts" documented in this thread (besides where noted as assumptions).
The engine report posted is Vino's motors inspection. This engine ran for an unspecified amount of time 4 quarts low on oil. I'm not an engine builder, but I do have a mechanical background and I know that when you run a high performance machine with almost no oil things heat up, change size, and rub. To what degree I don't know, but this HAS to be taken in to consideration when looking at the component measurements and pictures in the report that Julian has posted. Julian also hand picked the inspector on Vino's motor (assumption) so there "may" be some bias in that report. The inspector for Rome's motor was picked by Rome and is considered an unbiased third party by both GTM and MRC.
**************************EDIT******************************
Julian at MRC has stated that the motor burnt 4 quarts of oil over time, not all at once and that the motor was never 4 quarts low at one time. This is obviously a contridiction to what GTM is saying.
**************************EDIT******************************
Although Julian posted the report on Vino's motor most of the conversation has been centered around Rome's car. There is NO 3rd party information available about Rome's car (yet). The reason why the 3rd party information about Rome's car is important is because Rome's car was NOT driven X amount of miles 4 quarts low on oil. The results of this inspection will have much more merit, as there are far fewer unknowns.
In Vino's case it is easy for GTM to point fingers, and honestly I can't blame them. If I'm an engine builder and I hear one of my motors has been ran without oil I would fight tooth and nail to not warranty it, as that is considered abuse/neglect. No engine builder has control of what the internals of a motor will do running 4 quarts low on oil. In fact, dealerships won't offer warranty on your stock motor if you take it in for repair and they find it has no oil! Now, if the motor is burning oil, that is a COMPLETELY different subject, but as the owner of a boosted car it is the owners responsibility to check and maintain oil levels. The burning oil issue should have been fixed by GTM BEFORE it was able to cause more substantial damage.
Romes 2nd GTM motor, on the other hand was never driven. It would be much harder for GTM to "wash their hands" of this motor. There is no way one could perceive that the motor was abused. It was never tuned and never street/track driven by MRC or the customer.
The oil squirter issue isn't confusing at all. There was an obvious mistake made in the assembly and GTM has offered to send replacement squirters (although, I too wonder about what will keep the piston from breaking the replacement squirter - are they a low profile design or something???)
I have been accused of being "biased" in my posts already and hope that my efforts to clearify these points is not seen that way. I haven't chosen sides, I've just summarized the information posted in an attempt to inform people what is what in this thread. I, like many others, have no horse in this race, and I stand to gain/lose nothing if either shop were to close their doors tomorrow. To the best of my knowledge these are "facts" documented in this thread (besides where noted as assumptions).
Last edited by KPierson; 10-27-2008 at 02:42 PM.
10-27-2008, 11:01 AM
#195
This entire situation is confusing because of the way the information has been presented.
The engine report posted is Vino's motors inspection. This engine ran for an unspecified amount of time 4 quarts low on oil. I'm not an engine builder, but I do have a mechanical background and I know that when you run a high performance machine with almost no oil things heat up, change size, and rub. To what degree I don't know, but this HAS to be taken in to consideration when looking at the component measurements and pictures in the report that Julian has posted. Julian also hand picked the inspector on Vino's motor (assumption) so there "may" be some bias in that report. The inspector for Rome's motor was picked by Rome and is considered an unbiased third party by both GTM and MRC.
Although Julian posted the report on Vino's motor most of the conversation has been centered around Rome's car. There is NO 3rd party information available about Rome's car (yet). The reason why the 3rd party information about Rome's car is important is because Rome's car was NOT driven X amount of miles 4 quarts low on oil. The results of this inspection will have much more merit, as there are far fewer unknowns.
In Vino's case it is easy for GTM to point fingers, and honestly I can't blame them. If I'm an engine builder and I hear one of my motors has been ran without oil I would fight tooth and nail to not warranty it, as that is considered abuse/neglect. No engine builder has control of what the internals of a motor will do running 4 quarts low on oil. In fact, dealerships won't offer warranty on your stock motor if you take it in for repair and they find it has no oil! Now, if the motor is burning oil, that is a COMPLETELY different subject, but as the owner of a boosted car it is the owners responsibility to check and maintain oil levels. The burning oil issue should have been fixed by GTM BEFORE it was able to cause more substantial damage.
Romes 2nd GTM motor, on the other hand was never driven. It would be much harder for GTM to "wash their hands" of this motor. There is no way one could perceive that the motor was abused. It was never tuned and never street/track driven by MRC or the customer.
The oil squirter issue isn't confusing at all. There was an obvious mistake made in the assembly and GTM has offered to send replacement squirters (although, I too wonder about what will keep the piston from breaking the replacement squirter - are they a low profile design or something???)
I have been accused of being "biased" in my posts already and hope that my efforts to clearify these points is not seen that way. I haven't chosen sides, I've just summarized the information posted in an attempt to inform people what is what in this thread. I, like many others, have no horse in this race, and I stand to gain/lose nothing if either shop were to close their doors tomorrow. To the best of my knowledge these are "facts" documented in this thread (besides where noted as assumptions).
The engine report posted is Vino's motors inspection. This engine ran for an unspecified amount of time 4 quarts low on oil. I'm not an engine builder, but I do have a mechanical background and I know that when you run a high performance machine with almost no oil things heat up, change size, and rub. To what degree I don't know, but this HAS to be taken in to consideration when looking at the component measurements and pictures in the report that Julian has posted. Julian also hand picked the inspector on Vino's motor (assumption) so there "may" be some bias in that report. The inspector for Rome's motor was picked by Rome and is considered an unbiased third party by both GTM and MRC.
Although Julian posted the report on Vino's motor most of the conversation has been centered around Rome's car. There is NO 3rd party information available about Rome's car (yet). The reason why the 3rd party information about Rome's car is important is because Rome's car was NOT driven X amount of miles 4 quarts low on oil. The results of this inspection will have much more merit, as there are far fewer unknowns.
In Vino's case it is easy for GTM to point fingers, and honestly I can't blame them. If I'm an engine builder and I hear one of my motors has been ran without oil I would fight tooth and nail to not warranty it, as that is considered abuse/neglect. No engine builder has control of what the internals of a motor will do running 4 quarts low on oil. In fact, dealerships won't offer warranty on your stock motor if you take it in for repair and they find it has no oil! Now, if the motor is burning oil, that is a COMPLETELY different subject, but as the owner of a boosted car it is the owners responsibility to check and maintain oil levels. The burning oil issue should have been fixed by GTM BEFORE it was able to cause more substantial damage.
Romes 2nd GTM motor, on the other hand was never driven. It would be much harder for GTM to "wash their hands" of this motor. There is no way one could perceive that the motor was abused. It was never tuned and never street/track driven by MRC or the customer.
The oil squirter issue isn't confusing at all. There was an obvious mistake made in the assembly and GTM has offered to send replacement squirters (although, I too wonder about what will keep the piston from breaking the replacement squirter - are they a low profile design or something???)
I have been accused of being "biased" in my posts already and hope that my efforts to clearify these points is not seen that way. I haven't chosen sides, I've just summarized the information posted in an attempt to inform people what is what in this thread. I, like many others, have no horse in this race, and I stand to gain/lose nothing if either shop were to close their doors tomorrow. To the best of my knowledge these are "facts" documented in this thread (besides where noted as assumptions).
Last edited by RudeG_v2.0; 10-27-2008 at 11:14 AM.
10-27-2008, 11:16 AM
#196
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so in the spirit of helping rome, the one true victim to all this, can we get an answer to this ?
Originally Posted by me
so from all that is posted.....not the only question i have but this is one
so basically your gtm stg1 cam failed (you havent admited its your fault yet or its even a possibility that there is a manufacturing error yet)... because rome, willingly (acording to how you make it sound) upgraded to gtm stg2 he had to pay for the cams?.....now you arent saying it, but are you implying that you hooked up rome in anyway for the stg2 cams?
How much are gtm stg1s? i imagine you at least gave him credit for the cost of them right?
IMO if you were to make things right he should have had to pay nothing for the stg2s...(for example if stg1 cost 1000 and stg2 1300 at max hed had to pay 300)
so basically your gtm stg1 cam failed (you havent admited its your fault yet or its even a possibility that there is a manufacturing error yet)... because rome, willingly (acording to how you make it sound) upgraded to gtm stg2 he had to pay for the cams?.....now you arent saying it, but are you implying that you hooked up rome in anyway for the stg2 cams?
How much are gtm stg1s? i imagine you at least gave him credit for the cost of them right?
IMO if you were to make things right he should have had to pay nothing for the stg2s...(for example if stg1 cost 1000 and stg2 1300 at max hed had to pay 300)
Originally Posted by mforrest100
do agree with this entirely. If Romey paid for a new set of Stage 2 cams, then he should have still received the replacement set of Stage 1 cams that he could probably sell to recover some money and he should receive the Stage 2 cams since he paid full price. Based on the numbers above....its like he paid $2300 for a set of Stage 2 cams. He should of had both cams since one should have been replaced under warranty.
Originally Posted by r0mey
This is what occurred I did end up paying for 2 sets of cams but only have 1 set that was working. I wish i had a complete stage 1 set to sell and recoup some money. Actually some time back I had my stage 1s up for sale but had to close the thread when I found out they were defective. I told sam that I wanted stage 2 which i had wanted for some time. I never knew that the stage 1s would be replaced free because honestly. Julian had a set of bc stage 2s to give me for free. But talking to sam he strongly urged/convinced me to go with his cams and him putting the motor all together out in california so there were no problems. I have my old cams but the defective ones not new replaced cams. Only good working cams i have are the new ones I paid for.
10-27-2008, 11:17 AM
#197
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"As far as Joe aka USM whatever...you wer eoffered a resolution to your issues and you declined and attempted to defraud me out of $700 for two small door dings in your door that were fixed for $125. i know for a fact you tried to get me to pay for paint for some aftermarket parts on your car.."
Honest to God this is my last post in this thread.
Wow.......where did I post anything about this?
Honest to God this is my last post in this thread.
Wow.......where did I post anything about this?
Last edited by UMW350Z; 10-27-2008 at 12:12 PM.
10-27-2008, 11:25 AM
#198
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^ I can certainly appreciate that point of view. If that is indeed GTM's position/opinion on Vino's motor and the third party inspection that was posted, it would have been better if Sam specifically articulated this, rather than ignore the elephant under the spotlight standing up on the stage.
10-27-2008, 11:42 AM
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from my experience these questions will never be answered to satisfaction.i've grown accustomed to gtm(aka:george the whatever) skirting these difficult/embarrassing questions.i like how he offered him one of four cams,as if they didn't come out of the same batch.
Last edited by go-fast; 10-27-2008 at 11:46 AM.
10-27-2008, 11:44 AM
#200
I wanted to stay out of this, but If anyone is wondering about me since my name was mentioned.. hi.. hi.. how are you.. say hi to your mother for me..
anyway.. i echo what Zoni says.. my car is running.. MRC did a great Job with install and tuning my car.. Julian has always been 100% honest and upfront with me..
Sam did a great job on my engine.. it runs...
so...
if there is any notion to Julian saying Sam is a sh!tty engine builder: I am the exception
if there is any notion to Sam saying Julian is a sh!tty tuner/installer: I am the exception
I speak to Rome constantly online and i feel for what he is going through.. i only hope that even if this is the last transaction between Julian and Sam that it will come out positive for Rome.. and soon enough.. 6 months is a long a$$ time.. i think Rome is expressing it well even though he maybe feeling it deep down inside..
anyway.. i echo what Zoni says.. my car is running.. MRC did a great Job with install and tuning my car.. Julian has always been 100% honest and upfront with me..
Sam did a great job on my engine.. it runs...
so...
if there is any notion to Julian saying Sam is a sh!tty engine builder: I am the exception
if there is any notion to Sam saying Julian is a sh!tty tuner/installer: I am the exception
I speak to Rome constantly online and i feel for what he is going through.. i only hope that even if this is the last transaction between Julian and Sam that it will come out positive for Rome.. and soon enough.. 6 months is a long a$$ time.. i think Rome is expressing it well even though he maybe feeling it deep down inside..