anyone running the aquamist HSF-5
11-28-2008 | 05:40 PM
#21
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From: Morristown, NJ
I was talking with Sam @ GTM the other day about my HFS-5 set up and some fine tuning of my recently installed Fcon. He mentioned to me that they could add two additional ports to the WM assembly for a total of three ports and then I could effectively spray straight water.
Wondering if anyone is doing this and what would be the advantage, I see George prefers to spray only water but I thought that a WM mix would effectively raise your octane levels and cool your AIT's. With straight water I don't see what the advantage is other then it will cool AIT's without the meth that can be corrosive and a little more of a pain to refill if you run out in the middle of no were.
I currently spray 50/50 WM and I see a significant drop in AIT's on the navigator display, so is anyone else spraying a 3 port set up and what are your thoughts?
Wondering if anyone is doing this and what would be the advantage, I see George prefers to spray only water but I thought that a WM mix would effectively raise your octane levels and cool your AIT's. With straight water I don't see what the advantage is other then it will cool AIT's without the meth that can be corrosive and a little more of a pain to refill if you run out in the middle of no were.
I currently spray 50/50 WM and I see a significant drop in AIT's on the navigator display, so is anyone else spraying a 3 port set up and what are your thoughts?
11-28-2008 | 06:06 PM
#22
I was reading and typing too fast. I thought that he said his AITs were not dropping. My error. If you see your AIT's lowered, that is good. But the biggest temperature reduction from water/meth is going to be in the combustion chamber when they vaporize to gas. I edited my previous post.
Last edited by ttg35fort; 11-28-2008 at 06:26 PM.
11-29-2008 | 04:49 PM
#23
A centrifugal SC that, say, develops 5psi at 3500 rpm and ramps to 10psi at 7000rpm (a crude example, just bare with me). The fact that it goes up with rpm doesn't mean you are getting equal enough water-fuel ratio. If it injects say 50% of your intended flow at 5 psi and 100% at 10 psi, and as an example assuming that you are injecting 500cc/min of water at 100%, you are moving approximately 4 times the air and fuel at 7000rpm compared to 3500 rpm (because your RPM doubled AND your boost doubled) while moving only twice as much water. So, your water/fuel ratio falls down by half at the top end (where you really need it). This by the way assumes that you have at least the "smart" kind of boost-based water injection control, where water flow increased with boost (and not just a dummy switch where it just goes to 100% once a certain boost level is reached, in which case by the way, it's a horrible setup period, as your water/fuel ratio would decrease by 75% by redline).
In a turbo car, that will get to a set boost level early, is better than an SC, NOT the other way around. Because having a flat boost curve after spool up is complete will at least, using the above example, double the air/fuel flows between 3500 and 7000, so a dummy map switch will even work as well as a map-variable switch as WOT.
Bottom line, you need something that can control water flow based on boost AND RPM, just like our fuel injectors are. Aquamist does this (very well) while offering superior built quality, fit and finish, and MOST IMPORTANTLY, fault tolerance. What if your water flow is too high because you have a puncture in the line or a line came off? Too low because of clogging...etc .etc... All of this is acccounted for. If something goes wrong with a regular water injection kit without sophisticated controls for failsafes, theengine is toast, period! As always, you get what you pay for.
11-29-2008 | 06:57 PM
#25
So what if its 100% early on. You tune it out. I spray from 10-16 psi. 10 psi can be leaned way out/aggro timing and 16 psi is spot on. Plain and simple, you dont need the octane or cooling benefits at lower rpms with a proper intercooler, fuel setup with a SC as the heat build is linear. You just need a linear AIT reducer, which a simple kit does perfectly!
And with a snow stage 2, you progressively control the spray as boost increases. a couple pulls on the dyno and its set.
Also, you shouldnt be tuned soo aggressive that if the MeOH fails your motor blows anyhow. Coolingmist and snow both have clog/flow meters like the aquamist as well, anyhow. Just because its not as expensive doesnt mean it doesnt work. And without an EMS that allows map switching, wastegate control, the Aquamist controls are useless anyhow.
Injector related flow is great on paper. Plus you are assuming EVERYONE is tuning MeOH kit for extra power. Unfortunately, in the real world, other kits (non PWM) work just as well. Not everyone tries to drives 700 hp Z on 93 octane.
Again, this is only SC related. Turbo is different story and PWM control is best.
And with a snow stage 2, you progressively control the spray as boost increases. a couple pulls on the dyno and its set.
Also, you shouldnt be tuned soo aggressive that if the MeOH fails your motor blows anyhow. Coolingmist and snow both have clog/flow meters like the aquamist as well, anyhow. Just because its not as expensive doesnt mean it doesnt work. And without an EMS that allows map switching, wastegate control, the Aquamist controls are useless anyhow.
Injector related flow is great on paper. Plus you are assuming EVERYONE is tuning MeOH kit for extra power. Unfortunately, in the real world, other kits (non PWM) work just as well. Not everyone tries to drives 700 hp Z on 93 octane.
Again, this is only SC related. Turbo is different story and PWM control is best.
Not at all.
A centrifugal SC that, say, develops 5psi at 3500 rpm and ramps to 10psi at 7000rpm (a crude example, just bare with me). The fact that it goes up with rpm doesn't mean you are getting equal enough water-fuel ratio. If it injects say 50% of your intended flow at 5 psi and 100% at 10 psi, and as an example assuming that you are injecting 500cc/min of water at 100%, you are moving approximately 4 times the air and fuel at 7000rpm compared to 3500 rpm (because your RPM doubled AND your boost doubled) while moving only twice as much water. So, your water/fuel ratio falls down by half at the top end (where you really need it). This by the way assumes that you have at least the "smart" kind of boost-based water injection control, where water flow increased with boost (and not just a dummy switch where it just goes to 100% once a certain boost level is reached, in which case by the way, it's a horrible setup period, as your water/fuel ratio would decrease by 75% by redline).
In a turbo car, that will get to a set boost level early, is better than an SC, NOT the other way around. Because having a flat boost curve after spool up is complete will at least, using the above example, double the air/fuel flows between 3500 and 7000, so a dummy map switch will even work as well as a map-variable switch as WOT.
Bottom line, you need something that can control water flow based on boost AND RPM, just like our fuel injectors are. Aquamist does this (very well) while offering superior built quality, fit and finish, and MOST IMPORTANTLY, fault tolerance. What if your water flow is too high because you have a puncture in the line or a line came off? Too low because of clogging...etc .etc... All of this is acccounted for. If something goes wrong with a regular water injection kit without sophisticated controls for failsafes, theengine is toast, period! As always, you get what you pay for.
A centrifugal SC that, say, develops 5psi at 3500 rpm and ramps to 10psi at 7000rpm (a crude example, just bare with me). The fact that it goes up with rpm doesn't mean you are getting equal enough water-fuel ratio. If it injects say 50% of your intended flow at 5 psi and 100% at 10 psi, and as an example assuming that you are injecting 500cc/min of water at 100%, you are moving approximately 4 times the air and fuel at 7000rpm compared to 3500 rpm (because your RPM doubled AND your boost doubled) while moving only twice as much water. So, your water/fuel ratio falls down by half at the top end (where you really need it). This by the way assumes that you have at least the "smart" kind of boost-based water injection control, where water flow increased with boost (and not just a dummy switch where it just goes to 100% once a certain boost level is reached, in which case by the way, it's a horrible setup period, as your water/fuel ratio would decrease by 75% by redline).
In a turbo car, that will get to a set boost level early, is better than an SC, NOT the other way around. Because having a flat boost curve after spool up is complete will at least, using the above example, double the air/fuel flows between 3500 and 7000, so a dummy map switch will even work as well as a map-variable switch as WOT.
Bottom line, you need something that can control water flow based on boost AND RPM, just like our fuel injectors are. Aquamist does this (very well) while offering superior built quality, fit and finish, and MOST IMPORTANTLY, fault tolerance. What if your water flow is too high because you have a puncture in the line or a line came off? Too low because of clogging...etc .etc... All of this is acccounted for. If something goes wrong with a regular water injection kit without sophisticated controls for failsafes, theengine is toast, period! As always, you get what you pay for.
Last edited by str8dum1; 11-29-2008 at 07:02 PM.
11-30-2008 | 02:44 PM
#26
I setup a map based on Manifold Absolute Pressure and RPM to generate an output voltage that drives the injection controller which controls the pump (or high speed valves in my case). I set the map up in the Coolingmist Smart Injection DMS and Failsafe unit, but you can also use a suitable EMS, such as the F-CON V Pro. My goal was to roughly track the gas flow, but with the percentage of meth (or meth/water) to gas increasing as the boost increases. If you cannot generate custom maps in your EMS to deliver a variable output voltage, the Coolingmist Smart Injection DMS and Failsafe unit is $200, which I beleive is a very good price considering its capabilities. Here is a link:
http://www.coolingmist.com/detailmain.aspx?pid=1099
I will probably purchasing another Smart Injection unit to control a NOS system, which I am thinking about adding to my build in a few months or so.
You can call Dave at 888-667-3479 if you want more information on the controller. He is a really nice guy and great to deal with.
http://www.coolingmist.com/detailmain.aspx?pid=1099
I will probably purchasing another Smart Injection unit to control a NOS system, which I am thinking about adding to my build in a few months or so.
You can call Dave at 888-667-3479 if you want more information on the controller. He is a really nice guy and great to deal with.
Last edited by ttg35fort; 11-30-2008 at 02:49 PM.
12-05-2008 | 05:56 PM
#27
I'm going back to the tuner next Saturday, and we are going to set up a meth map that will be switched on when I activate the HSF-5 with the on/off switch on the gauge. I've been thinking about adding at least one additional port. Currently I'm spraying one 6 inches in front of the throttle body and I'm curious to know were you might add a second port.
I worry about spraying WM before the maf for fear of damaging it, yet I'm not sure if adding an additional port will make any difference or not, or it may be a mistake. I know you said you were going to spray with 3 ports, just curious about where you plan to inject at in the air stream.
I still plan to spray 50/50 WM so maybe two ports spraying is to much, I understand that people spraying 3 ports mostly spray water only, anyone have any experience they'd like to share?
12-05-2008 | 06:22 PM
#28
Any truth to meth having long term damaging effects on the motor? If so, does the concentration of meth make any difference? Are there any benefits of running a 25/75 meth to water mixture instead of 50/50?
12-06-2008 | 08:16 AM
#29
OK after some googling I found an article about multiple port injection and placement of the injection ports. http://www.alcoholinjectionsystems.c...icle_info.html
Some good info I thought, answers a lot of questions plus makes me think about adding one injection port before my Vortech. I need to think about that one. Sorry OP not trying to steal your thread, just trying to expand the knowledge base a little.
Some good info I thought, answers a lot of questions plus makes me think about adding one injection port before my Vortech. I need to think about that one. Sorry OP not trying to steal your thread, just trying to expand the knowledge base a little.
12-07-2008 | 09:03 PM
#31
Actually, its my understanding that meth/water injection is good for a motor. Let's assume that you have two motors both putting out 600 hp, one with meth/water injection and one without. The motor with the meth/water injection will run cooler and have less risk of pre-detonation (assuming similar AFR values and ignition timing). Moreover, with meth/water injection, you should be able to advance the timing over a motor that does not have meth/water injection, and thus gain hp.
Last edited by ttg35fort; 12-07-2008 at 09:24 PM.
12-08-2008 | 01:14 PM
#32
Actually, its my understanding that meth/water injection is good for a motor. Let's assume that you have two motors both putting out 600 hp, one with meth/water injection and one without. The motor with the meth/water injection will run cooler and have less risk of pre-detonation (assuming similar AFR values and ignition timing). Moreover, with meth/water injection, you should be able to advance the timing over a motor that does not have meth/water injection, and thus gain hp.
12-27-2008 | 10:42 AM
#33
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From: Texas, Arizona,Cayman Island
I agree with Gurgen...the aquamist and the FJO units are the best on the market. For our application, you need a module that controls the water delivery via a combination of boost and rpm (or injector pulsewidth.)
on kits like the SNOW, they are based only on boost for our applications. this is hugely flawed on a turbocharged engine.....as boost and ariflow are not the same. 10 psi at 3000 rpm is not the same volume of air as 10 psi at 6000 rpm. if we had a MAF unit that didn't max out so quickly, you could base the meth kit output on MAF voltage......but we don't.
on kits like the SNOW, they are based only on boost for our applications. this is hugely flawed on a turbocharged engine.....as boost and ariflow are not the same. 10 psi at 3000 rpm is not the same volume of air as 10 psi at 6000 rpm. if we had a MAF unit that didn't max out so quickly, you could base the meth kit output on MAF voltage......but we don't.
This is some info for those that think the Snow Meth system is not a safe system or is only triggered by boost... click on "Product Description" when you go to the site. This product will perform as good as the "So called" best
http://projectptp.com/snow-performan...n/g-54013.aspx
http://projectptp.com/snow-performan...r/g-54009.aspx
"ultimate safeguard for your engine. Snow Performance SafeInjection is a watchdog that always monitors the system output flow. Designed as an add on to the Boost Cooler water/methanol injection system, Snow Performance SafeInjection provides for a safe tune in those instances where no injection is present and an aggressive tune is utilized. This system reduces boost and/or timing anytime injection quantity goes below the set point regardless of the reason (ran out of fluid, clogged line, etc.). This sets your vehicle into a “safe mode” making your tune instantly conservative for the ultimate in safe water/methanol injection."
Last edited by XKR; 12-27-2008 at 02:57 PM.
12-27-2008 | 05:43 PM
#36
Very nice....
With the port injection setup, you will not have any issues with meth puddling in the intake plenum, which is a big plus.
The only issue that could occur is if one of the injectors gets clogged. The probability of that is probably very low, though. (I'm guessing about the same probabilty of getting a clogged fuel injector). You may want to be sure to put a fuel filter in the line.
It's hard to monitor meth flow with enough granularity to identify whether a single injector is clogged, so I opted to inject before the throttle body. I'm unsure whether that was the right decision, but if the meth pools and I blow the encaps off of the Cosworth, I'll change it over to the same type of port injection setup that you have.
My meth system is completely hooked up and ready to go, but I haven't yet had a chance to tune my motor for meth injection.
With the port injection setup, you will not have any issues with meth puddling in the intake plenum, which is a big plus.
The only issue that could occur is if one of the injectors gets clogged. The probability of that is probably very low, though. (I'm guessing about the same probabilty of getting a clogged fuel injector). You may want to be sure to put a fuel filter in the line.
It's hard to monitor meth flow with enough granularity to identify whether a single injector is clogged, so I opted to inject before the throttle body. I'm unsure whether that was the right decision, but if the meth pools and I blow the encaps off of the Cosworth, I'll change it over to the same type of port injection setup that you have.
My meth system is completely hooked up and ready to go, but I haven't yet had a chance to tune my motor for meth injection.
Last edited by ttg35fort; 12-27-2008 at 05:51 PM.
12-27-2008 | 05:58 PM
#38
There are alot of kits on the market. After doing a bunch of research, I opted for the Coolingmist system (I posted the contact information previously in this thread). But Snow performance has a good reputation, as well as a number of other suppliers.
One thing to look for is whether the pump you select is designed to be chemically compatible with straight meth (if you think you may end up going in that direction). Some pumps have the appropriate coatings to handle straight meth, while others do not. I'm not sure if the Snow Performance pump is designed for straight meth, but the Coolingmist pump is supposed to be.
One thing to look for is whether the pump you select is designed to be chemically compatible with straight meth (if you think you may end up going in that direction). Some pumps have the appropriate coatings to handle straight meth, while others do not. I'm not sure if the Snow Performance pump is designed for straight meth, but the Coolingmist pump is supposed to be.
Last edited by ttg35fort; 12-27-2008 at 06:11 PM.
12-27-2008 | 06:07 PM
#39
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From: Texas, Arizona,Cayman Island
There are alot of kits on the market. After doing a bunch of research, I opted for the Coolingmist system (I posted the contact information previously in this thread). But Snow performance has a good reputation, as well as a number of other suppliers.
One thing to look for is whether the pump you select is designed to handle straight meth (if you think you may end up going in that direction). Some pumps have the appropriate coatings to handle straight meth, while others do not.
One thing to look for is whether the pump you select is designed to handle straight meth (if you think you may end up going in that direction). Some pumps have the appropriate coatings to handle straight meth, while others do not.
I agree.....
but its not a good idea.
Last edited by XKR; 12-27-2008 at 06:24 PM.
12-27-2008 | 07:15 PM
#40
As you can see...your statement is not correct.
This is some info for those that think the Snow Meth system is not a safe system or is only triggered by boost... click on "Product Description" when you go to the site. This product will perform as good as the "So called" best
http://projectptp.com/snow-performan...n/g-54013.aspx
http://projectptp.com/snow-performan...r/g-54009.aspx
"ultimate safeguard for your engine. Snow Performance SafeInjection is a watchdog that always monitors the system output flow. Designed as an add on to the Boost Cooler water/methanol injection system, Snow Performance SafeInjection provides for a safe tune in those instances where no injection is present and an aggressive tune is utilized. This system reduces boost and/or timing anytime injection quantity goes below the set point regardless of the reason (ran out of fluid, clogged line, etc.). This sets your vehicle into a “safe mode” making your tune instantly conservative for the ultimate in safe water/methanol injection."
This is some info for those that think the Snow Meth system is not a safe system or is only triggered by boost... click on "Product Description" when you go to the site. This product will perform as good as the "So called" best
http://projectptp.com/snow-performan...n/g-54013.aspx
http://projectptp.com/snow-performan...r/g-54009.aspx
"ultimate safeguard for your engine. Snow Performance SafeInjection is a watchdog that always monitors the system output flow. Designed as an add on to the Boost Cooler water/methanol injection system, Snow Performance SafeInjection provides for a safe tune in those instances where no injection is present and an aggressive tune is utilized. This system reduces boost and/or timing anytime injection quantity goes below the set point regardless of the reason (ran out of fluid, clogged line, etc.). This sets your vehicle into a “safe mode” making your tune instantly conservative for the ultimate in safe water/methanol injection."
Last edited by GTM; 12-27-2008 at 07:25 PM.