ITB with air box !!! woow sick
my take on the limitations is the throttle location. Thats the real killer. Building a manifold around various performance theories can be a real pain when you have such an awkward throttle location to match. we did that one on the manifold we gave to SP, trying our best with that throttle location. recently, in the quest for a LOT more power in my car, along with a more organized, symetrical, and exotic looking engine bay... i decided its time for a front throttle intake. brandon and i found that it was actually possible to get an adequate center front throttle body manifold to clear between the hood and chaincovers... just a whole lot of measuring and tons of clearance surfaces in the programming.... the throttlebody lays completely in front of the chain cover, and the transition of the plenum that goes over the chain cover never reduces even close to the surface area of the throttle itself (meaning its not choking up the airflow any more than the throttle in the restrictive section that passes over the chain cover)... if im making sense trying to describe it without pictures and numbers.
Last edited by phunk; Jan 3, 2009 at 05:57 PM.
Registered User
iTrader: (1)
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 5,256
Likes: 0
From: Texas, Arizona,Cayman Island
youre in the power range, it could probably aid you, how high do you rev? got any links to dyno sheets i can see?
i think the g35 has more space for the front throttle intake than the Z, you may not have to change a whole lot other than extended throttle wiring and a new intake pipe from the IC.
as for one off fee... its up there man... the new front throttle one in full billet trim costs about $1000 just in material! so its pricey, definatly will need to cast it if we expect to move more than a few. one thing id like to add... it just looks SICK! makes the VQ finally look a little exotic.
i think the g35 has more space for the front throttle intake than the Z, you may not have to change a whole lot other than extended throttle wiring and a new intake pipe from the IC.
as for one off fee... its up there man... the new front throttle one in full billet trim costs about $1000 just in material! so its pricey, definatly will need to cast it if we expect to move more than a few. one thing id like to add... it just looks SICK! makes the VQ finally look a little exotic.
I am in !!!
youre in the power range, it could probably aid you, how high do you rev? got any links to dyno sheets i can see?
i think the g35 has more space for the front throttle intake than the Z, you may not have to change a whole lot other than extended throttle wiring and a new intake pipe from the IC.
as for one off fee... its up there man... the new front throttle one in full billet trim costs about $1000 just in material! so its pricey, definatly will need to cast it if we expect to move more than a few. one thing id like to add... it just looks SICK! makes the VQ finally look a little exotic.
i think the g35 has more space for the front throttle intake than the Z, you may not have to change a whole lot other than extended throttle wiring and a new intake pipe from the IC.
as for one off fee... its up there man... the new front throttle one in full billet trim costs about $1000 just in material! so its pricey, definatly will need to cast it if we expect to move more than a few. one thing id like to add... it just looks SICK! makes the VQ finally look a little exotic.
my take on the limitations is the throttle location. Thats the real killer. Building a manifold around various performance theories can be a real pain when you have such an awkward throttle location to match. we did that one on the manifold we gave to SP, trying our best with that throttle location. recently, in the quest for a LOT more power in my car, along with a more organized, symetrical, and exotic looking engine bay... i decided its time for a front throttle intake. brandon and i found that it was actually possible to get an adequate center front throttle body manifold to clear between the hood and chaincovers... just a whole lot of measuring and tons of clearance surfaces in the programming.... the throttlebody lays completely in front of the chain cover, and the transition of the plenum that goes over the chain cover never reduces even close to the surface area of the throttle itself (meaning its not choking up the airflow any more than the throttle in the restrictive section that passes over the chain cover)... if im making sense trying to describe it without pictures and numbers.
the cos is a pretty cool design... i would be super curious what the displacement is on it, but i cant imagine a more awkward shape to try and measure like that... looking at the pics just posted here its definatly going to have more displacement then i original thought
Last edited by phunk; Jan 4, 2009 at 11:34 AM.
lol! actually all of our vq intake manifold design work started in mastercam, so it never left mastercam. i was working on an intake manifold for a friends S4 when i was asking you solidworks questions
my take on the limitations is the throttle location. Thats the real killer. Building a manifold around various performance theories can be a real pain when you have such an awkward throttle location to match. we did that one on the manifold we gave to SP, trying our best with that throttle location. recently, in the quest for a LOT more power in my car, along with a more organized, symetrical, and exotic looking engine bay... i decided its time for a front throttle intake. brandon and i found that it was actually possible to get an adequate center front throttle body manifold to clear between the hood and chaincovers... just a whole lot of measuring and tons of clearance surfaces in the programming.... the throttlebody lays completely in front of the chain cover, and the transition of the plenum that goes over the chain cover never reduces even close to the surface area of the throttle itself (meaning its not choking up the airflow any more than the throttle in the restrictive section that passes over the chain cover)... if im making sense trying to describe it without pictures and numbers.
Could you post them again?
due to a recent spree of our things being copied we are a little tight on pictures before availability on new things... so our front throttle unit is currently area 51... but there are pics of previous designs floating around... check out SPs build thread for the stock throttle prototype. ours is a much much more simple layout compared to the cosworth since our runners are much shorter.... we are still finishing up the front throttle one so at this point pictures may not be appropriate anyway since it may not entirely represent what will be the final product
there really is nothing wrong with the stock lower part of the manifold (the v shaped piece that goes to the heads), aside from the ports not quite being the same diameter than the heads (easily rectified) .
Last edited by Z1 Performance; Jan 4, 2009 at 02:57 PM.
due to a recent spree of our things being copied we are a little tight on pictures before availability on new things... so our front throttle unit is currently area 51... but there are pics of previous designs floating around... check out SPs build thread for the stock throttle prototype. ours is a much much more simple layout compared to the cosworth since our runners are much shorter.... we are still finishing up the front throttle one so at this point pictures may not be appropriate anyway since it may not entirely represent what will be the final product
I assume this will be primarily designed for FI?
due to a recent spree of our things being copied we are a little tight on pictures before availability on new things... so our front throttle unit is currently area 51... but there are pics of previous designs floating around... check out SPs build thread for the stock throttle prototype. ours is a much much more simple layout compared to the cosworth since our runners are much shorter.... we are still finishing up the front throttle one so at this point pictures may not be appropriate anyway since it may not entirely represent what will be the final product
It seams that with the shorter intake runners the peak torque will happen at a higher RPM. What rpm is your peak torque? Is there much midrange torque lost?
It seems that a single entry center mounted throttle body is the less elegant solution when compared to a twin throttle design. A single entry makes for HUGE positioning issues not to mention problems with piping. I can only see that as a benefit to single turbo kits. A single 90MM Throttle could cause issues of throttle tip in and driveability problems assuming that was in the cards. Most people making 500+ are making the correct decision to use twin kits.
Twin throttle would also allow you to increase the plenum volume significantly to the side of the motor. Also you would be able to direct the airflow to each set of runners from the front side instead of the back side. Obviously electronics is the biggest hurdle but it opens so many options.
Twin throttle would also allow you to increase the plenum volume significantly to the side of the motor. Also you would be able to direct the airflow to each set of runners from the front side instead of the back side. Obviously electronics is the biggest hurdle but it opens so many options.
the positioning issues are why we avoided relocating the throttle initially and did the stock throttle one, so that we had a "bolt-on" solution that only required minimal modifications to work.
however, we have found that we can still do the single front center throttle and clear the factory radiator setup, we have to determine if this is going to end up working with the factory fan shroud or if the large lip on the top facing backwords will need to be trimmed, which isnt a big deal anyway.
piping isnt much of a concern for us... our intake manifold design is very aggressive and meant for very high HP high RPM cars... and these cars will be at shops easily capable of building a new pipe from the IC to the throttle... there is a point where if you want to do thigns a certain way it just isnt going to be compatable with the bolt on kits.... a twin throttle setup will have greater issues with pipe fabrication than a single relocated throttle.
im not sure i would bother with upgrading the single throttle to a larger unit, the stock throttle has proven to be adequate on cars over 1000rwhp so far.
2 versus one throttle doesnt really effect your plenum displacement, you can stil take up whatever space you chose for your plenum.
we played with the idea of twin throttles, but for my car i wanted the single in the front for servicability... the twin throttle setup will cover the valvecovers and coils etc, i wanted something mroe exotic and clean. done properly, a single throttle feeding in the front will work, just like in the 2JZ and RB world... properly laid out, a single throttle can feed the plenum and not run into cylinder bias issues.
we still might play with a twin throttle setup, but one thing at a time.
however, we have found that we can still do the single front center throttle and clear the factory radiator setup, we have to determine if this is going to end up working with the factory fan shroud or if the large lip on the top facing backwords will need to be trimmed, which isnt a big deal anyway.
piping isnt much of a concern for us... our intake manifold design is very aggressive and meant for very high HP high RPM cars... and these cars will be at shops easily capable of building a new pipe from the IC to the throttle... there is a point where if you want to do thigns a certain way it just isnt going to be compatable with the bolt on kits.... a twin throttle setup will have greater issues with pipe fabrication than a single relocated throttle.
im not sure i would bother with upgrading the single throttle to a larger unit, the stock throttle has proven to be adequate on cars over 1000rwhp so far.
2 versus one throttle doesnt really effect your plenum displacement, you can stil take up whatever space you chose for your plenum.
we played with the idea of twin throttles, but for my car i wanted the single in the front for servicability... the twin throttle setup will cover the valvecovers and coils etc, i wanted something mroe exotic and clean. done properly, a single throttle feeding in the front will work, just like in the 2JZ and RB world... properly laid out, a single throttle can feed the plenum and not run into cylinder bias issues.
we still might play with a twin throttle setup, but one thing at a time.