momentum performance
06-09-2009, 08:45 AM
#141
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Oh if you only knew.
I can simply say this, Majority of this industry has been affected in one way or another in a positive manner by 1ZweetZ but, we'll leave it at there.
It makes me ROFL anytime I see someone attempt to battle him. I guarantee there is no one on this site that can hang with him/her (lol) on an automotive intelligence level. Don't try you will look sorry just like all the others.
Not just my opinion its the truth.
GOOOO Schoementus MotorfartZ, dig that hole baby
I can simply say this, Majority of this industry has been affected in one way or another in a positive manner by 1ZweetZ but, we'll leave it at there.
It makes me ROFL anytime I see someone attempt to battle him. I guarantee there is no one on this site that can hang with him/her (lol) on an automotive intelligence level. Don't try you will look sorry just like all the others.
Not just my opinion its the truth.
GOOOO Schoementus MotorfartZ, dig that hole baby
06-09-2009, 10:10 AM
#144
Oh if you only knew.
I can simply say this, Majority of this industry has been affected in one way or another in a positive manner by 1ZweetZ but, we'll leave it at there.
It makes me ROFL anytime I see someone attempt to battle him. I guarantee there is no one on this site that can hang with him/her (lol) on an automotive intelligence level. Don't try you will look sorry just like all the others.
Not just my opinion its the truth.
GOOOO Schoementus MotorfartZ, dig that hole baby
I can simply say this, Majority of this industry has been affected in one way or another in a positive manner by 1ZweetZ but, we'll leave it at there.
It makes me ROFL anytime I see someone attempt to battle him. I guarantee there is no one on this site that can hang with him/her (lol) on an automotive intelligence level. Don't try you will look sorry just like all the others.
Not just my opinion its the truth.
GOOOO Schoementus MotorfartZ, dig that hole baby
06-09-2009, 11:08 AM
#145
Let cut the bickering as mentioned before. If both kits do the job great. But as of NOW the PL kit has proven to be far superior to prior ST kits of the past couple years. Sooo, if this kit comes out and proves better then the PL then we can all say ooooo aaaaa, but until then, we should just wait to see the results. From the photos, REGARDLESS of what they show, the PL is a solid well built kit, show me one kit that is flawless and i mean flawless... everything in FI has something that could be better. When the momentum kit hits the market i'm sure there will be some flaws also.
Lets just see what comes of it, we know there will be people testing it, lets see what gets said.
From a neutral point of view you have some of the top minds in the community in this thread. We should respect each other regardless of what kit we support.
Lets just see what comes of it, we know there will be people testing it, lets see what gets said.
From a neutral point of view you have some of the top minds in the community in this thread. We should respect each other regardless of what kit we support.
06-09-2009, 11:17 AM
#146
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Sound Performance
Actually on our supra our BP was lower than manifold pressure until we reached 38 psi of boost. On our 350z it remains lower until 25 psi which is why we are changing to larger turbine wheels with larger housings.
06-09-2009, 11:25 AM
#147
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Welcome to SP and their knowledge and experience and might I add another authorized dealer and installer of PowerLab Kits.
Sp is one of the foremost premier shops in the country and much like us has dominated the Supra indusrty at one point or currently setting multiple world records in multiple categories including now the VQ market.
It'll be interesting to see the response to their post from other, wait I can see it now.
"SP IS WRONG is this is why and who I called and heres a chart and some physics knowledge I can throw out there."
How's the momentum so far, pretty sad to hear that out the gate a rookie shop has to come out swingin at the big dogs and the top products slandering them or bad mouthing and now back peddling and what not to try to sell their product.
Indeed we'll see over time if it stands the test. The shop and product both. A product should stand on its own merit not be sold based on sh*t talking at Z days or forums. Shameful
Sp is one of the foremost premier shops in the country and much like us has dominated the Supra indusrty at one point or currently setting multiple world records in multiple categories including now the VQ market.
It'll be interesting to see the response to their post from other, wait I can see it now.
"SP IS WRONG is this is why and who I called and heres a chart and some physics knowledge I can throw out there."
How's the momentum so far, pretty sad to hear that out the gate a rookie shop has to come out swingin at the big dogs and the top products slandering them or bad mouthing and now back peddling and what not to try to sell their product.
Indeed we'll see over time if it stands the test. The shop and product both. A product should stand on its own merit not be sold based on sh*t talking at Z days or forums. Shameful
06-09-2009, 12:10 PM
#149
I believe the reason for the misconception is based on your choice of words, which i believe you did intentionally..
what you should have said was the difference between the powerlab kit and our kit is that they route the wastegate differently, we choose the other option because its how standard turbo kits are made
infact what you did say was the PL Kit did their wastegate wrong and is a huge design flaw, however it works great and it makes power and there is nothing wrong with its performance, just that they made it wrong
A wok looks nothing like a frying pan, but if it makes fried rice just the same and it taste just the same, then i'm not going to say a wok was made incorrectly
An STS Turbo Kit looks nothing like a Turbonetics Turbo Kit, but it makes power just the same and it performs just the same, then i'm not going to say an STS Kit was made incorrectly
A tampon looks nothing like a maxipad, but it prevents a woman from leaking during her time of hte month, then i'm not going to say the tampon is made incorrectly
An LCD TV looks nothing like a DLP TV, but it shows me picture just the same, then i'm not going to say the LCD TV is made incorrectly
I could go on for days, but i'm sure you're starting to see my point..
If you agree the PowerLab Kit performs correctly and does nothing to wrong, why would you say its made wrong? you should have said its different, not the avenue you have chosen, but you can't jump up and say its a design flaw if you say it works great
Until you test a PowerLab Kit and prove your theory, please stop throwing up theories and laws of physics and how things are suppose to work.. if everything in this world worked how it was SUPPOSE to work then everything would be predictable
what you should have said was the difference between the powerlab kit and our kit is that they route the wastegate differently, we choose the other option because its how standard turbo kits are made
infact what you did say was the PL Kit did their wastegate wrong and is a huge design flaw, however it works great and it makes power and there is nothing wrong with its performance, just that they made it wrong
A wok looks nothing like a frying pan, but if it makes fried rice just the same and it taste just the same, then i'm not going to say a wok was made incorrectly
An STS Turbo Kit looks nothing like a Turbonetics Turbo Kit, but it makes power just the same and it performs just the same, then i'm not going to say an STS Kit was made incorrectly
A tampon looks nothing like a maxipad, but it prevents a woman from leaking during her time of hte month, then i'm not going to say the tampon is made incorrectly
An LCD TV looks nothing like a DLP TV, but it shows me picture just the same, then i'm not going to say the LCD TV is made incorrectly
I could go on for days, but i'm sure you're starting to see my point..
If you agree the PowerLab Kit performs correctly and does nothing to wrong, why would you say its made wrong? you should have said its different, not the avenue you have chosen, but you can't jump up and say its a design flaw if you say it works great
Until you test a PowerLab Kit and prove your theory, please stop throwing up theories and laws of physics and how things are suppose to work.. if everything in this world worked how it was SUPPOSE to work then everything would be predictable
06-09-2009, 12:13 PM
#150
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busy spinning wrenches and my ears were ringing,i knew it was one of two things,either the air tools were getting to me or someone was talking about me on my350z. 
06-09-2009, 12:32 PM
#151
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06-09-2009, 01:03 PM
#154
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I posted an actual datalog with back pressure and manifold pressure not words, a chart, or some physics knowledge. Like I said on a highly tuned race car its possible on a street car it's extremely unlikely.
I also never back peddled. How big of an issue the wastegate placement is is a matter of opinion. Personally I am extremely picky about that kind of thing on my car if it's not technically correct I wont do it even if the cost is less than a 1/10th of a horsepower. Same reason I have two waste gates on a twin scroll manifold it's not easier or cheaper and I probably would have seen a negligible difference but at the end of the day it's the right way to do it. On a race car I wont paint over paint I'll sand it down to metal plastic or fiberglass and start over because every ounce counts. To me all of that stuff is a big deal, if it's not to others that's a matter of opinion.
I also never back peddled. How big of an issue the wastegate placement is is a matter of opinion. Personally I am extremely picky about that kind of thing on my car if it's not technically correct I wont do it even if the cost is less than a 1/10th of a horsepower. Same reason I have two waste gates on a twin scroll manifold it's not easier or cheaper and I probably would have seen a negligible difference but at the end of the day it's the right way to do it. On a race car I wont paint over paint I'll sand it down to metal plastic or fiberglass and start over because every ounce counts. To me all of that stuff is a big deal, if it's not to others that's a matter of opinion.
That being said.....You are a new company coming on here going up against a proven company with claims that have not been proven by you or any other person/company. They have tons of customers out there that will not agree with you......and now they even have Sound Performance agreeing with them, and the worst part of it..... SP is one of their dealers.
Here is the bad part of all this....Say you buy a kit and prove your point....PL has a proven name....so all they would have to do is move the wastegate and its business as usual....
At this point you have injured your company by making claims about a product you have NEVER tested....you know you are wrong for doing it this way without ANY testing to back up your claims.For you to get any market share at this point.....your kit CANNOT be as good as PL.....it has to be WAY better with PROVEN results.... If its as good or less...the only way you can sell it is if its much cheaper..and you will be laughed off this website
By your action...you have set the bar way too high for yourself.....by your actions, you are telling us that your Kit is way better than the PL kit. I saw where you were heading....and I came on here trying to tell you to stop before you fall in...too late
I have seen many companies come on here with new kits....and I dont remember seeing a new company unveil a new product this way.....They usually show videos of what their kits will do....and thats how they take jabs at their competitors.....THEN they come on here to defend when someone takes a swing at their kit.
Once again ...you have done it the wrong way....This community will only follow a proven product.....they dont follow hype...(well the smart ones dont). The big shops on here do one of two things...They build a shop car using their Kit ( ie: Intense, SP, SFR, GTM,,just to name a few)...they put up numbers that none of us will believe at first....then they PROVE it....or you could do what other shops do....they get a customer willing to install their Stage 6 Kit and then put down big numbers.....which is easier for most to believe because its a customer car ...not a shop car.....so a simple dyno will do.
There is no doubt you will pick up a few nutswingers on here.....but they will soon fall off when they realize that you will not give away a free kit or you wont sell it for 2K.......
I hope you take my advise.
This is what I have been trying to tell them
....... They have set the bar way too high. If their kits make a digit less than PL with the same turbo's.....WOW..The FI section will not forget
Last edited by XKR; 06-09-2009 at 01:32 PM.
06-09-2009, 02:22 PM
#155
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I don't want to argue about whether the wastegate placement is a huge, small, or non issue but there's a few facts that I want to clear up:
Here's a diagram, both banks are vented as you can clearly see in the diagram I've taken these cars apart and I'm surprised no one else here has to confirm. Either way that's a factory flow diagram so I would assume that will end that debate.
This is simply not true, I have worked on a few different year models and even just made a call to someone I know who services these cars at HSR (historic racing) from when I worked at KTR (historic racing support shop) That has never been the case on ANY CART. Some do have a single "pop off" valve that was mandated by the sanctioning body but that only goes off if a team is cheating so it's generally closed. It's also on the intake not the exhaust. You must have seen an odd picture or only one side of a car.
Was never said or implied.
Flow is not like saying color flow is like saying lbs/min or CFM (lbs/min is way more accurate here)
Flow is what drives the turbine wheel pressure and velocity would both go UP if you made a smaller uppipe but the turbine wheel wouldn't be driven as fast because FLOW would go down.
Pressure is the result of impeding flow
velocity is the result (in the case of fluid dynamics) of restricting flow to a certain cross sectional area.
The engine always cares about back pressure engine efficiency is described in ICE development as MAP/EMAP and is almost never greater than 1.00
Backpressure is almost always higher than manifold pressure with the exception of extremely well tuned race cars as is evident by the datalog I posted.
A normal pressure ratio would be .85
Here's a diagram, both banks are vented as you can clearly see in the diagram I've taken these cars apart and I'm surprised no one else here has to confirm. Either way that's a factory flow diagram so I would assume that will end that debate.
This is simply not true, I have worked on a few different year models and even just made a call to someone I know who services these cars at HSR (historic racing) from when I worked at KTR (historic racing support shop) That has never been the case on ANY CART. Some do have a single "pop off" valve that was mandated by the sanctioning body but that only goes off if a team is cheating so it's generally closed. It's also on the intake not the exhaust. You must have seen an odd picture or only one side of a car.
Was never said or implied.
Flow is not like saying color flow is like saying lbs/min or CFM (lbs/min is way more accurate here)
Flow is what drives the turbine wheel pressure and velocity would both go UP if you made a smaller uppipe but the turbine wheel wouldn't be driven as fast because FLOW would go down.
Pressure is the result of impeding flow
velocity is the result (in the case of fluid dynamics) of restricting flow to a certain cross sectional area.
The engine always cares about back pressure engine efficiency is described in ICE development as MAP/EMAP and is almost never greater than 1.00
Backpressure is almost always higher than manifold pressure with the exception of extremely well tuned race cars as is evident by the datalog I posted.
A normal pressure ratio would be .85
So, Larry, how many wastegates on a stock twin Supra, and how many of the two turbo's do that wastegate errr uhhhhh waste gates
control?Then you think that you have some experience with a couple of C.A.R.T. engine programs (may or may not be true, but no one cares), and think that you know every setup they ever ran. Just becuase you don't know about it, or haven't seen it doesn't mean it didn't exist. They change their setups every year, and multiple times during the season, and YES, they ran single bank setups with great success. However it is irrelevant at this point as your are wasting everyones time trying to prove a point no one cares about.
Now you want to start talking about Pressure ratio's and assume you know how that is going to pan out by looking at a system having no experience with it whatsoever. Pressure ratio is soley dependant upon how hard you are driving the turbo charger, so to say "an average is .85" is like saying your average fuel economy is 20...it's meaningless. The gear you are in plays a huge part in pressure ratio. There is a lot of factors that go into what affects pressure ratio, one thing that does NOT is the location of the wastegate on the PL kit however.
06-09-2009, 02:25 PM
#156
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If the PL kit is the main competitor (and lets face it, there are not many viable VQ ST kits out there), then you had better buy one to test against it. You just dug yourself a minimum of a $7,000 hole to prove your product better than the competition.
There is really no choice now. if you want credibility, you are going to need to install one and run some tests. Otherwised you just have hearsay and look stupid.
I would be interested to see the results actually...I'd subscribe to the thread
There is really no choice now. if you want credibility, you are going to need to install one and run some tests. Otherwised you just have hearsay and look stupid.
I would be interested to see the results actually...I'd subscribe to the thread
06-09-2009, 02:53 PM
#157
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National Speed has the Momentum kit on their shop car, so I guess it's just a matter of the Dyno. I dont think their kit can be leaps and bounds over the PL, but again I'm not a tuner/builder. I will be at National Speed's Dyno Day/BBQ I will get a better look of the kit at that time.
06-09-2009, 03:05 PM
#158
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This post is coming way too late, as the damage has already been done. I will first start off by personally apologizing for any and all offense taken in this thread. This thread was started to ask a few questions about our kit and has turned into a Momentum VS Powerlab battle. This was by no means the goal for Momentum and we realize that we are at fault. By choosing to use the wrong words describing the wastegate placement and continuing to aggravate the situation by refusing to be told different about opinions and not yet proven facts.
I am Bobby Downes, co-founder and President of Momentum Performance. Momentum was founded by Ben and me in November of last year. Our goal, along with the entire Momentum staff, is to produce and sell some of the highest quality aftermarket performance parts in the industry. My background is fabrication and business, while Ben’s is engineering and racing. We chose to first produce a line of parts for the 350Z/ G35, including a turbo kit, and plan to manufacture parts for many other make and models in the future.
When we began our development for the single turbo kit, we started by researching all other kits currently available, including the Powerlab kit. Our goal was to design the very best kit possible with the highest quality materials, best fabrication techniques and nicest components. For those claiming knock off, the VQ35 engine bay on the Z/G is very tight. This permits the turbo to be properly located and have the best flowing plumbing in only one place under the hood, keeping all the factory systems intact. Obviously Powerlab and Momentum can agree on the best components, as we have both chosen similarly (Tial and Garrett). With our initial investigation, the Powerlab kit was thought to be the best and would provide to be the stiffest competition. We chose to change multiple things, one of which is the topic of debate here, and still think now after our development and prototyping is done, that the Powerlab kit is the tightest competition. Ultimately it is up to the consumer to weight out the pros and cons as to which kit is better.
For anyone that has attended a ZDAYZ event at Deal’s Gap, they would agree that the event is very relaxed and like a big part the entire weekend. Various vendors choose to have “parties” over the weekend and provide alcohol to those of age. This year, one vendor provided on multiple nights mixed drinks out of an infamous gas powered blender, while another vendor had a party at their cabin on Saturday night. While some may think that a couple kegs of beer is over the top, I sure had fun as well as other did. To those that support us, i say thanks, and to those that don't, you have the right to your own opinion.
I will end by saying that I have no desire to argue or debate here and Momentum will no longer be posting on this thread. Again I apologize for any offense and agree that this was not the most welcoming way to enter the MY350Z community. I am happy to answer any further questions about the kit through a new thread or PM and I do plan to make future posts about our products on this forum.
I am Bobby Downes, co-founder and President of Momentum Performance. Momentum was founded by Ben and me in November of last year. Our goal, along with the entire Momentum staff, is to produce and sell some of the highest quality aftermarket performance parts in the industry. My background is fabrication and business, while Ben’s is engineering and racing. We chose to first produce a line of parts for the 350Z/ G35, including a turbo kit, and plan to manufacture parts for many other make and models in the future.
When we began our development for the single turbo kit, we started by researching all other kits currently available, including the Powerlab kit. Our goal was to design the very best kit possible with the highest quality materials, best fabrication techniques and nicest components. For those claiming knock off, the VQ35 engine bay on the Z/G is very tight. This permits the turbo to be properly located and have the best flowing plumbing in only one place under the hood, keeping all the factory systems intact. Obviously Powerlab and Momentum can agree on the best components, as we have both chosen similarly (Tial and Garrett). With our initial investigation, the Powerlab kit was thought to be the best and would provide to be the stiffest competition. We chose to change multiple things, one of which is the topic of debate here, and still think now after our development and prototyping is done, that the Powerlab kit is the tightest competition. Ultimately it is up to the consumer to weight out the pros and cons as to which kit is better.
For anyone that has attended a ZDAYZ event at Deal’s Gap, they would agree that the event is very relaxed and like a big part the entire weekend. Various vendors choose to have “parties” over the weekend and provide alcohol to those of age. This year, one vendor provided on multiple nights mixed drinks out of an infamous gas powered blender, while another vendor had a party at their cabin on Saturday night. While some may think that a couple kegs of beer is over the top, I sure had fun as well as other did. To those that support us, i say thanks, and to those that don't, you have the right to your own opinion.
I will end by saying that I have no desire to argue or debate here and Momentum will no longer be posting on this thread. Again I apologize for any offense and agree that this was not the most welcoming way to enter the MY350Z community. I am happy to answer any further questions about the kit through a new thread or PM and I do plan to make future posts about our products on this forum.
Last edited by Bobby@Momentum; 06-09-2009 at 03:08 PM.
06-09-2009, 03:43 PM
#159
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You are correct.... I probably know more about sequential turbos than any one here after designing our own system for the supra.
The stock supra twin turbos feature one wastegate on turbo number 1. The manifold is a log design with the front 3 cylinders feeding turbo # 1 and the the rear 3 feeding turbo number 2. There is small balance tube that connects the front 3 and rear 3 cylinders. When the engine is running on one turbo all of the exhaust from the rear 3 cylinders has to flow though this small balance tube into the front turbo. The rear turbo in this case has it's exhaust outlet blocked by the main exhaust control valve. Once the exhaust valve opens the rear turbo comes online and is primarily fed by the rear three cylinders and the front turbo by the front three. There is however NO wastegate on the rear turbo, only the front.
With that all being said..... can't we all get along??
06-09-2009, 05:18 PM
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This post is coming way too late, as the damage has already been done. I will first start off by personally apologizing for any and all offense taken in this thread. This thread was started to ask a few questions about our kit and has turned into a Momentum VS Powerlab battle. This was by no means the goal for Momentum and we realize that we are at fault. By choosing to use the wrong words describing the wastegate placement and continuing to aggravate the situation by refusing to be told different about opinions and not yet proven facts.
I am Bobby Downes, co-founder and President of Momentum Performance. Momentum was founded by Ben and me in November of last year. Our goal, along with the entire Momentum staff, is to produce and sell some of the highest quality aftermarket performance parts in the industry. My background is fabrication and business, while Ben’s is engineering and racing. We chose to first produce a line of parts for the 350Z/ G35, including a turbo kit, and plan to manufacture parts for many other make and models in the future.
When we began our development for the single turbo kit, we started by researching all other kits currently available, including the Powerlab kit. Our goal was to design the very best kit possible with the highest quality materials, best fabrication techniques and nicest components. For those claiming knock off, the VQ35 engine bay on the Z/G is very tight. This permits the turbo to be properly located and have the best flowing plumbing in only one place under the hood, keeping all the factory systems intact. Obviously Powerlab and Momentum can agree on the best components, as we have both chosen similarly (Tial and Garrett). With our initial investigation, the Powerlab kit was thought to be the best and would provide to be the stiffest competition. We chose to change multiple things, one of which is the topic of debate here, and still think now after our development and prototyping is done, that the Powerlab kit is the tightest competition. Ultimately it is up to the consumer to weight out the pros and cons as to which kit is better.
For anyone that has attended a ZDAYZ event at Deal’s Gap, they would agree that the event is very relaxed and like a big part the entire weekend. Various vendors choose to have “parties” over the weekend and provide alcohol to those of age. This year, one vendor provided on multiple nights mixed drinks out of an infamous gas powered blender, while another vendor had a party at their cabin on Saturday night. While some may think that a couple kegs of beer is over the top, I sure had fun as well as other did. To those that support us, i say thanks, and to those that don't, you have the right to your own opinion.
I will end by saying that I have no desire to argue or debate here and Momentum will no longer be posting on this thread. Again I apologize for any offense and agree that this was not the most welcoming way to enter the MY350Z community. I am happy to answer any further questions about the kit through a new thread or PM and I do plan to make future posts about our products on this forum.
I am Bobby Downes, co-founder and President of Momentum Performance. Momentum was founded by Ben and me in November of last year. Our goal, along with the entire Momentum staff, is to produce and sell some of the highest quality aftermarket performance parts in the industry. My background is fabrication and business, while Ben’s is engineering and racing. We chose to first produce a line of parts for the 350Z/ G35, including a turbo kit, and plan to manufacture parts for many other make and models in the future.
When we began our development for the single turbo kit, we started by researching all other kits currently available, including the Powerlab kit. Our goal was to design the very best kit possible with the highest quality materials, best fabrication techniques and nicest components. For those claiming knock off, the VQ35 engine bay on the Z/G is very tight. This permits the turbo to be properly located and have the best flowing plumbing in only one place under the hood, keeping all the factory systems intact. Obviously Powerlab and Momentum can agree on the best components, as we have both chosen similarly (Tial and Garrett). With our initial investigation, the Powerlab kit was thought to be the best and would provide to be the stiffest competition. We chose to change multiple things, one of which is the topic of debate here, and still think now after our development and prototyping is done, that the Powerlab kit is the tightest competition. Ultimately it is up to the consumer to weight out the pros and cons as to which kit is better.
For anyone that has attended a ZDAYZ event at Deal’s Gap, they would agree that the event is very relaxed and like a big part the entire weekend. Various vendors choose to have “parties” over the weekend and provide alcohol to those of age. This year, one vendor provided on multiple nights mixed drinks out of an infamous gas powered blender, while another vendor had a party at their cabin on Saturday night. While some may think that a couple kegs of beer is over the top, I sure had fun as well as other did. To those that support us, i say thanks, and to those that don't, you have the right to your own opinion.
I will end by saying that I have no desire to argue or debate here and Momentum will no longer be posting on this thread. Again I apologize for any offense and agree that this was not the most welcoming way to enter the MY350Z community. I am happy to answer any further questions about the kit through a new thread or PM and I do plan to make future posts about our products on this forum.
