Stillen Blower + Water/Meth injection...is it worth it?
10-31-2009, 10:57 PM
#41
The whole benefit to water/meth injection is to lower IAT which will let the EMS run a more agressive timing map. That said the stillen by it's design is **** poor at cooling the air charge AND the throttle body is before the compressor so there is no easy way of telling the EMS what the air temps are to properly map the timing.
I think the way to more power is run meth/water, retune + cams, or go for nitrous... or do all of that.
Meth+water will be able to add hp while increasing reliability (of course that includes tune).
OP, imo get water meth retune and some kind of exhaust bolt on (something you don't have ie test pipes).
The problem with the opposing argument (that i see), what other mod can he do? assuming he has full s/c, exhaust there aren't any other simple bolt-ons to add power, except nitrous, but nitrous + sc on stock block is a bit iffy. The only simple way to add reliable power is to increase timing through tuning and reduce iat... both ways are achievable with meth/water injection and a retune.
Does anyone follow what I am trying to explain? Again not trying to attack anyone's ideas per say, I just don't understand any other options (from a bpu standpoint)...
Good discussion
11-01-2009, 05:19 AM
#42
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I think the way to more power is run meth/water, retune + cams, or go for nitrous... or do all of that.
Meth+water will be able to add hp while increasing reliability (of course that includes tune).
OP, imo get water meth retune and some kind of exhaust bolt on (something you don't have ie test pipes).
The problem with the opposing argument (that i see), what other mod can he do? assuming he has full s/c, exhaust there aren't any other simple bolt-ons to add power, except nitrous, but nitrous + sc on stock block is a bit iffy. The only simple way to add reliable power is to increase timing through tuning and reduce iat... both ways are achievable with meth/water injection and a retune.
Does anyone follow what I am trying to explain? Again not trying to attack anyone's ideas per say, I just don't understand any other options (from a bpu standpoint)...
Good discussion
Good thought, but what works for other FI setups, won't work for a roots blower, due to the needed backpressure with a roots style. (Don't ask me to explain, i cant' remember why, but it's true)
Those that have added cams, and aftermarket exhaust with the out of the box Stillen plug and play setup have had considerable losses in achievable hp. This setup is made to be plug and play, and dependable as a DD on the STOCK engine/exhaust/ECU configuration. It's for people that wan't to add some HP safely to a stock motor without having to undergo any serious mods. (Like myself)
I think you may of missed my point of this whole thread. If you would read back to the beginning, i stated many times in that i'm not interested in any furthur significant mods in reguards to trying to polish a turd. I know the limits i want with this blower, and i'm at them now with the stage 4 setup, as far as dependability and safety goes in respect to the engine. I don't keep 3K lying around to put into a new motor once i pop this one like others do. Z mods, at this point in my life, are pretty low on the 'ole priority list. Nor do i care to keep up with the Jones's. I just simply want to be as consistant year round as i can. And it seems that maybe a little straight water injection would be the way to go. Nothing fancy, not breaking records. I asked because i've never looked into going this route and i wasn't familiar with water/meth pros and cons. Stillen is a strange setup. It likes stock components (yes, even the stock airbox, don't get me started on that, lol). You can't really compare it to other options, in that reguard.
Last edited by halfass872; 11-01-2009 at 11:35 AM.
11-03-2009, 09:22 PM
#44
Good thought, but what works for other FI setups, won't work for a roots blower, due to the needed backpressure with a roots style. (Don't ask me to explain, i cant' remember why, but it's true)
Those that have added cams, and aftermarket exhaust with the out of the box Stillen plug and play setup have had considerable losses in achievable hp. This setup is made to be plug and play, and dependable as a DD on the STOCK engine/exhaust/ECU configuration. It's for people that wan't to add some HP safely to a stock motor without having to undergo any serious mods. (Like myself)
I think you may of missed my point of this whole thread. If you would read back to the beginning, i stated many times in that i'm not interested in any furthur significant mods in reguards to trying to polish a turd. I know the limits i want with this blower, and i'm at them now with the stage 4 setup, as far as dependability and safety goes in respect to the engine. I don't keep 3K lying around to put into a new motor once i pop this one like others do. Z mods, at this point in my life, are pretty low on the 'ole priority list. Nor do i care to keep up with the Jones's. I just simply want to be as consistant year round as i can. And it seems that maybe a little straight water injection would be the way to go. Nothing fancy, not breaking records. I asked because i've never looked into going this route and i wasn't familiar with water/meth pros and cons. Stillen is a strange setup. It likes stock components (yes, even the stock airbox, don't get me started on that, lol). You can't really compare it to other options, in that reguard.
Those that have added cams, and aftermarket exhaust with the out of the box Stillen plug and play setup have had considerable losses in achievable hp. This setup is made to be plug and play, and dependable as a DD on the STOCK engine/exhaust/ECU configuration. It's for people that wan't to add some HP safely to a stock motor without having to undergo any serious mods. (Like myself)
I think you may of missed my point of this whole thread. If you would read back to the beginning, i stated many times in that i'm not interested in any furthur significant mods in reguards to trying to polish a turd. I know the limits i want with this blower, and i'm at them now with the stage 4 setup, as far as dependability and safety goes in respect to the engine. I don't keep 3K lying around to put into a new motor once i pop this one like others do. Z mods, at this point in my life, are pretty low on the 'ole priority list. Nor do i care to keep up with the Jones's. I just simply want to be as consistant year round as i can. And it seems that maybe a little straight water injection would be the way to go. Nothing fancy, not breaking records. I asked because i've never looked into going this route and i wasn't familiar with water/meth pros and cons. Stillen is a strange setup. It likes stock components (yes, even the stock airbox, don't get me started on that, lol). You can't really compare it to other options, in that reguard.
Well if you are satisfied with how the car performs as is then goodonya
Just trying to help!
PS:
well said G35tt hahahaha
11-04-2009, 03:05 AM
#45
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Putting it after the blower would defeat alot the purpose since i want to both cool the lobes AND the air going it.
11-04-2009, 03:36 PM
#46
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Adding Meth and advancing timing a bit will gain you about 10-15whp. I gained 16whp at my power level. You might be able to just add a little meth and keep everything else the same to just gain your year round consistency. I turn my meth on from time to time with my meth map turned off on my utec just to add an extra safety margin when it gets really hot or really cold. You will only gain about 5whp if you don't advance the timing but will not suffer from heat soak durning the summer. For $400 it's not a bad upgrade. Your gains may even be higher with the stillen since you can cool the lobes.
11-04-2009, 05:08 PM
#47
Adding Meth and advancing timing a bit will gain you about 10-15whp. I gained 16whp at my power level. You might be able to just add a little meth and keep everything else the same to just gain your year round consistency. I turn my meth on from time to time with my meth map turned off on my utec just to add an extra safety margin when it gets really hot or really cold. You will only gain about 5whp if you don't advance the timing but will not suffer from heat soak durning the summer. For $400 it's not a bad upgrade. Your gains may even be higher with the stillen since you can cool the lobes.
(what I've been trying to say, finally someone who can validate my idea 
) +1
11-05-2009, 12:45 PM
#48
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The whole benefit to water/meth injection is to lower IAT which will let the EMS run a more agressive timing map.
If you really wanted to get a serious boost you could fashion a system like they had on the Ford F150 Lightning. You would need to have 2 charge air cooling systems, one being the primary and a secondary system that is plummed thru a heat exchanger that is also tied into the A/C system. When properly setup it would give a brief maybe 20 second burst of chilled water to the intercooler.
Water to air are just not as efficient as air to air charge coolers. The reality is be happy with what you get from the stillen or replace it with a centrifugal system or turbos.
If you really wanted to get a serious boost you could fashion a system like they had on the Ford F150 Lightning. You would need to have 2 charge air cooling systems, one being the primary and a secondary system that is plummed thru a heat exchanger that is also tied into the A/C system. When properly setup it would give a brief maybe 20 second burst of chilled water to the intercooler.
Water to air are just not as efficient as air to air charge coolers. The reality is be happy with what you get from the stillen or replace it with a centrifugal system or turbos.
11-05-2009, 01:08 PM
#49
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Pre-Blower injection is great for controlling heak soak, and thats how we do it on about 95% of positive displacement apps. This often does allow for more injection too, as there is quite a lot heat to work with in the blower case.
One thing to keep an eye on as far as nozzle placement is pre or post throttle plate. If you are post throttle plate, I heartily recomend a solenoid to stop any vacuum siphoning from occuring at idle. Our systems have a built-in check valve, but in the end check valves are designed to stop flow going in the wrong direction, not the correct direction. A solenoid simply eliminates the possibility completely.
In some applications where the MAF sensor is very close to the TB, going after the TB also ensures that we do not affect airflow readings.
One other though that I may not have mentioned is that injecting based on MAF input is very desireable in a positive displacement application, as it produces a much more progressive injection curve compared to boost, which is pretty much instantaeous in an app like this. Boost works fine, but MAF allows for a more precise system.
One thing to keep an eye on as far as nozzle placement is pre or post throttle plate. If you are post throttle plate, I heartily recomend a solenoid to stop any vacuum siphoning from occuring at idle. Our systems have a built-in check valve, but in the end check valves are designed to stop flow going in the wrong direction, not the correct direction. A solenoid simply eliminates the possibility completely.
In some applications where the MAF sensor is very close to the TB, going after the TB also ensures that we do not affect airflow readings.
One other though that I may not have mentioned is that injecting based on MAF input is very desireable in a positive displacement application, as it produces a much more progressive injection curve compared to boost, which is pretty much instantaeous in an app like this. Boost works fine, but MAF allows for a more precise system.
11-06-2009, 03:01 AM
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Pre-Blower injection is great for controlling heak soak, and thats how we do it on about 95% of positive displacement apps. This often does allow for more injection too, as there is quite a lot heat to work with in the blower case.
One thing to keep an eye on as far as nozzle placement is pre or post throttle plate. If you are post throttle plate, I heartily recomend a solenoid to stop any vacuum siphoning from occuring at idle. Our systems have a built-in check valve, but in the end check valves are designed to stop flow going in the wrong direction, not the correct direction. A solenoid simply eliminates the possibility completely.
In some applications where the MAF sensor is very close to the TB, going after the TB also ensures that we do not affect airflow readings.
One other though that I may not have mentioned is that injecting based on MAF input is very desireable in a positive displacement application, as it produces a much more progressive injection curve compared to boost, which is pretty much instantaeous in an app like this. Boost works fine, but MAF allows for a more precise system.
One thing to keep an eye on as far as nozzle placement is pre or post throttle plate. If you are post throttle plate, I heartily recomend a solenoid to stop any vacuum siphoning from occuring at idle. Our systems have a built-in check valve, but in the end check valves are designed to stop flow going in the wrong direction, not the correct direction. A solenoid simply eliminates the possibility completely.
In some applications where the MAF sensor is very close to the TB, going after the TB also ensures that we do not affect airflow readings.
One other though that I may not have mentioned is that injecting based on MAF input is very desireable in a positive displacement application, as it produces a much more progressive injection curve compared to boost, which is pretty much instantaeous in an app like this. Boost works fine, but MAF allows for a more precise system.
I think yal have all answered my questions wonderfuly i really appreciate it!!
The last hurdle i have to cross is how to make it so it doesn't dump water/meth as soon as the dialed in boost level is reached on the pressure switch. Basically what i'm saying is, with a positive displacement blower, i can mash the gas at pretty much any RPM or gear, and it will quickly go into boost (and not go anywhere if i'm in too high of a gear). So i obviously don't want to dump the full stream of water/meth at 1900 RPMs in 4th gear doing 30MPH when i don't need it.
Obviously don't normally drive like that, but crap happens, and i'm not always paying attention when in traffic, etc. The answer i've seen for this situation is a setup like AEM has where the water/meth flow starts out at about (For example) 75PSI water/meth @ 2PSI of boost, and progressivly goes up as boost goes up. So you dial in the "start" and "max" boost settings, and it ensures that it will be full flow at max boost, but just a little at minimal boost.
I don't necessarly want to go the AEM route for that reason only, i'd much rather save some money and piece my own setup like others have suggested. But if need be i will.
11-06-2009, 05:00 AM
#51
take my word for it now.. i know you didn't take my word for it before.. we went back and forth a long time ago.. and i told you this setup would make you bored.. and eventually it did.. please i'm begging you.. take my word now.. DO NOT DO ANYTHING ELSE WITH THIS SYSTEM TO MAKE MORE POWER.. just get rid of it.. its not going to give you enough satisfacation.. and you are wasting time and money..
as i told you before.. anything you do to this kit.. including a new EMS or Meth is going to put you right under the mark at were all the other FI Kits start at. AEM? is that AEM EMS? if so don't get that either.. it doesn't work right with the VQ.. its garbage.. and a waste of money..
please listen to me.. i've been here long enough.. i've done this long enough.. don't waste your time trying to get more power out of your stillen
as i told you before.. anything you do to this kit.. including a new EMS or Meth is going to put you right under the mark at were all the other FI Kits start at. AEM? is that AEM EMS? if so don't get that either.. it doesn't work right with the VQ.. its garbage.. and a waste of money..
please listen to me.. i've been here long enough.. i've done this long enough.. don't waste your time trying to get more power out of your stillen
11-06-2009, 05:14 AM
#52
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take my word for it now.. i know you didn't take my word for it before.. we went back and forth a long time ago.. and i told you this setup would make you bored.. and eventually it did.. please i'm begging you.. take my word now.. DO NOT DO ANYTHING ELSE WITH THIS SYSTEM TO MAKE MORE POWER.. just get rid of it.. its not going to give you enough satisfacation.. and you are wasting time and money..
as i told you before.. anything you do to this kit.. including a new EMS or Meth is going to put you right under the mark at were all the other FI Kits start at. AEM? is that AEM EMS? if so don't get that either.. it doesn't work right with the VQ.. its garbage.. and a waste of money..
please listen to me.. i've been here long enough.. i've done this long enough.. don't waste your time trying to get more power out of your stillen
as i told you before.. anything you do to this kit.. including a new EMS or Meth is going to put you right under the mark at were all the other FI Kits start at. AEM? is that AEM EMS? if so don't get that either.. it doesn't work right with the VQ.. its garbage.. and a waste of money..
please listen to me.. i've been here long enough.. i've done this long enough.. don't waste your time trying to get more power out of your stillen
LOL, ok ok!!! I told you you were right!!!
11-06-2009, 10:16 PM
#53
as i told you before.. anything you do to this kit.. including a new EMS or Meth is going to put you right under the mark at were all the other FI Kits start at. AEM? is that AEM EMS? if so don't get that either.. it doesn't work right with the VQ.. its garbage.. and a waste of money..
AEM ems works great for the cars i've seen it run on (in person) (supras, and evos).Thats a disappointment to hear it sucks for the vq.
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