Stillen Blower + Water/Meth injection...is it worth it?
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Stillen Blower + Water/Meth injection...is it worth it?
So i've grown bored of my Stillen output (as everyone predicted), but not so much to the point that i want to part out, do a build, go TT, etc. I want to keep my set up but maybe "bolt on" a little more power, without too much fuss.
I've been reading up on Methanol injection, and i have a couple questions reguarding it.
1) From what i've read so far, it seems the injector needs to be placed before the TB. If this is true would i loose any cooling benefit because it still has to get compressed by the blower before going into the cylinders? (Vice a normal SC/Turbo setup where the air has already been charged before reaching the TB and introducing the Methenol into the air path)
2) Is this a simple plug and play? I checked out the AEM kit which has an adjustable start and stop point based on boost. Will i need to do a "tune" to make this safe? My computer is stock, and i have the Stillen piggyback computer so i don't think it will be cost effective if i need to try to retune either.
Lets try to keep this informative. I don't need 40 people telling me how i should burn the car and i'm an idiot for buying a Stillen blower. It is what it is, it works for me, and i don't drive aggressive often enough to bother starting all over from scratch again
I've been reading up on Methanol injection, and i have a couple questions reguarding it.
1) From what i've read so far, it seems the injector needs to be placed before the TB. If this is true would i loose any cooling benefit because it still has to get compressed by the blower before going into the cylinders? (Vice a normal SC/Turbo setup where the air has already been charged before reaching the TB and introducing the Methenol into the air path)
2) Is this a simple plug and play? I checked out the AEM kit which has an adjustable start and stop point based on boost. Will i need to do a "tune" to make this safe? My computer is stock, and i have the Stillen piggyback computer so i don't think it will be cost effective if i need to try to retune either.
Lets try to keep this informative. I don't need 40 people telling me how i should burn the car and i'm an idiot for buying a Stillen blower. It is what it is, it works for me, and i don't drive aggressive often enough to bother starting all over from scratch again
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2) Is this a simple plug and play? I checked out the AEM kit which has an adjustable start and stop point based on boost. Will i need to do a "tune" to make this safe? My computer is stock, and i have the Stillen piggyback computer so i don't think it will be cost effective if i need to try to retune either.
So imo you wont need a tune to be "safe" but you will likely need a tune to get all the benefits meth has to offer.
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Ok, well i think i answer question #1 for myself. Did a google search and it appears that injecting pre-blower will still be effective as it cools the lobes, and evens out the dispersion to the cylinders.
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2) Is this a simple plug and play? I checked out the AEM kit which has an adjustable start and stop point based on boost. Will i need to do a "tune" to make this safe? My computer is stock, and i have the Stillen piggyback computer so i don't think it will be cost effective if i need to try to retune either.
Last edited by ttg35fort; 10-28-2009 at 08:54 AM.
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You should re-tune if you use meth or a meth/water mix. If you don't want to re-tune, you can get by with injecting straight water, but then what's the point? Injecting water will stave off detonation, but if you are properly tuned now, detonation should not be an issue... Using injection will allow you to adjust your tune so that you can advance the timing and/or use more boost (in which case you need to change a pulley wheel). If you are not doing either of these, imo it's not worth the expense and effort.
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Meth isn't going to hurt your car, essentially you can start spraying from 2k rpm if you want, but this is pretty wasteful. I doubt you will need a tune, as this is similar to putting (correct me if im wrong) c16 in your car (50/50 meth water), and will only reduce the probability of detonation. You might actually pick up power if the stock ecu decides that the lower air intake temp and increased octane level is good to run more timing.
So imo you wont need a tune to be "safe" but you will likely need a tune to get all the benefits meth has to offer.
So imo you wont need a tune to be "safe" but you will likely need a tune to get all the benefits meth has to offer.
Last edited by ttg35fort; 10-28-2009 at 09:04 AM.
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Good to know!! I'll probably install it at the neck of the blower, that will allow it to spray directly into the lobes evenly.
I can't go any smaller on the pully, i have the smallest on Stillen makes. My main deal is the blower becomes very inefficient in the summer months. So hopefully this would be an inexpensive way to try to counteract that!
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With respect to injecting straight water, you are correct. With respect to injecting a 50/50 mix, this is not correct. Methanol is a fuel. If you add methanol without adjusting the tune, your AFR will drop. The amount of the AFR drop will depend on the amount of meth being injected. Too low of an AFR is counter productive because it starts to decrease hp. If your AFR drops to around 8 or below, then you start to wash the cylinders, and that is not good.
Maybe the better thing to say is:
OP: Can you get a retune and do you have an A/F gauge?
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With respect to injecting straight water, that's fine so long as you don't over do it. With respect to injecting a 50/50 mix or straight meth, this is not correct. Methanol is a fuel. If you add methanol without adjusting the tune, your AFR will drop. The amount of the AFR drop will depend on the amount of meth being injected. Too low of an AFR is counter productive because it starts to decrease hp. If your AFR drops to around 8 or below, then you start to wash the cylinders, and that is not good.
Woudld you reccomend a 25/75 mix of meth/water then if running on a stock ECU?? I've read of people using washer fluid which is 30/70 ish.
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Thats about all i can contribute to this thread
My vote is meth/water + used utec + good tune.
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Thanks for all the great responses!!!
Last edited by halfass872; 10-28-2009 at 09:40 AM.
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1) You presently have a detonation problem (i.e., knocking); or
2) You are going to re-tune and up the boost and/or advance the timing.
Other than this, I see a lot of money and time spent with no real benefit.
Last edited by ttg35fort; 10-28-2009 at 10:22 AM.
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There really is no point in going with an injection system unless:
1) You presently have a detonation problem (i.e., knocking); or
2) You are going to re-tune and up the boost and/or advance the timing.
Other than this, I see a lot of money and time spent with no real benefit.
1) You presently have a detonation problem (i.e., knocking); or
2) You are going to re-tune and up the boost and/or advance the timing.
Other than this, I see a lot of money and time spent with no real benefit.
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Good deal. Just getting all the facts together. Like i said before, i really just wanna offset the effects of the hotter air in the summer because i can tell a considerable difference in performance. But if my sotck ECU is gonna counteract any benifits i gain with meth without a tune, then you're right, it'll likely be a waste.
Last edited by ttg35fort; 10-28-2009 at 11:20 AM.
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So i've grown bored of my Stillen output (as everyone predicted), but not so much to the point that i want to part out, do a build, go TT, etc. I want to keep my set up but maybe "bolt on" a little more power, without too much fuss.
I've been reading up on Methanol injection, and i have a couple questions reguarding it.
1) From what i've read so far, it seems the injector needs to be placed before the TB. If this is true would i loose any cooling benefit because it still has to get compressed by the blower before going into the cylinders? (Vice a normal SC/Turbo setup where the air has already been charged before reaching the TB and introducing the Methenol into the air path)
Actually this provides some extra benefits in the case of a positive displacement blower. By keeping the blower case cool we prevent heat soak very effectively along with reducing charge temps and providing direct detonation controll through increased octane.
2) Is this a simple plug and play? I checked out the AEM kit which has an adjustable start and stop point based on boost. Will i need to do a "tune" to make this safe? My computer is stock, and i have the Stillen piggyback computer so i don't think it will be cost effective if i need to try to retune either.
With a positive displacement blower, injection based on boost is a flawed strategy, because the boost curve is more like a step. So rather than getting a nice progressive injection curve, you get a sudden slug of fluid. MAF based controll or better yet EFI PW controll is more effective, as it allows for a very nice progressive injection curve.
Lets try to keep this informative. I don't need 40 people telling me how i should burn the car and i'm an idiot for buying a Stillen blower. It is what it is, it works for me, and i don't drive aggressive often enough to bother starting all over from scratch again
I've been reading up on Methanol injection, and i have a couple questions reguarding it.
1) From what i've read so far, it seems the injector needs to be placed before the TB. If this is true would i loose any cooling benefit because it still has to get compressed by the blower before going into the cylinders? (Vice a normal SC/Turbo setup where the air has already been charged before reaching the TB and introducing the Methenol into the air path)
Actually this provides some extra benefits in the case of a positive displacement blower. By keeping the blower case cool we prevent heat soak very effectively along with reducing charge temps and providing direct detonation controll through increased octane.
2) Is this a simple plug and play? I checked out the AEM kit which has an adjustable start and stop point based on boost. Will i need to do a "tune" to make this safe? My computer is stock, and i have the Stillen piggyback computer so i don't think it will be cost effective if i need to try to retune either.
With a positive displacement blower, injection based on boost is a flawed strategy, because the boost curve is more like a step. So rather than getting a nice progressive injection curve, you get a sudden slug of fluid. MAF based controll or better yet EFI PW controll is more effective, as it allows for a very nice progressive injection curve.
Lets try to keep this informative. I don't need 40 people telling me how i should burn the car and i'm an idiot for buying a Stillen blower. It is what it is, it works for me, and i don't drive aggressive often enough to bother starting all over from scratch again
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Unless you are knocking, your issue is that hot air is less dense than cool air. I'm not sure which stillen kit you have, but I beleive that there is an intercooler available that sits between the SC and the intake runners. If you do not already have that, that would be the first upgrade I would recommend. If you do have that already, focus on getting more air to the heat exchanger.
I added a fan to the front of the heat exchanger at the beginning of the summer. But even without the fan, the water in the heat exchanger resivour never got hot to the point that it would burn you. I'm thinking of buying an aftermarket heat exchanger. The one supplied is pretty small, thus not really giving the water much time in it to get cooled by the air flowing through the bumper.
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There really is no point in going with an injection system unless:
1) You presently have a detonation problem (i.e., knocking); or
2) You are going to re-tune and up the boost and/or advance the timing.
Other than this, I see a lot of money and time spent with no real benefit.
1) You presently have a detonation problem (i.e., knocking); or
2) You are going to re-tune and up the boost and/or advance the timing.
Other than this, I see a lot of money and time spent with no real benefit.
For one, you are much safer in the event of a bad tank of gas. For another, the reduced blower temps mean less ( often virtually 0 ) heat soak in repeated runs. Finnally, it does allow for a more aggressive tune, which allows you to get more from the parts you already have.
Very few setups are not octane limited on pump gas. Water/methanol removes this limitation to a very large degree while also effectively dealing with heat issues.
No mod is perfect, but 400-500 dollars to get all the octane you need and effectively intercool a setup at the same time with minimal down time or complication is a pretty good deal.
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No knocking (that i knwo if). And i have the stage 4 kit, which has the heat exchanger, smallest pully, better piggyback, new fuel pump, and larger 6th injector.
I added a fan to the front of the heat exchanger at the beginning of the summer. But even without the fan, the water in the heat exchanger resivour never got hot to the point that it would burn you. I'm thinking of buying an aftermarket heat exchanger. The one supplied is pretty small, thus not really giving the water much time in it to get cooled by the air flowing through the bumper.
I added a fan to the front of the heat exchanger at the beginning of the summer. But even without the fan, the water in the heat exchanger resivour never got hot to the point that it would burn you. I'm thinking of buying an aftermarket heat exchanger. The one supplied is pretty small, thus not really giving the water much time in it to get cooled by the air flowing through the bumper.
Injecting extra fuel is a method of absorbing heat. The gasoline results in a cooler, slower burn, which preventsdetonation. BUT, you have to deal with the rich AFRs this can create and the fact that gasoline is pretty poor as a heat absorber, especially compared to water, and especially compared to the cool burn of methanol combined with water. Long story short, you dont have to run rich to control detonation if you use injection.