Marshall FTW!! haha

 

haha,

 

Ah young grasshopper, schooling on fuels is a must for you.

First things first: pump gas a lot of times contains ethanol. 10% ethanol is a good amount of ethanol. Ethanol as we know it is less dense than gasoline therefore will require more fuel to produce the same energy. You probably know that when using straight ethanol people are running almost double the fuel for the same energy output. Hence the reason for people to run 1600cc injectors verses 600 or 800cc injectors with gasoline. So if you take gasoline and dilute it down with 10% ethanol that will already increase the volume of fuel needed to produce the same effect. It matters huge then. Pure gasoline (as race fuel is) verses a pump gas with 10% ethanol will require less volume of the fuel to produce the same power. So for 700 hp say you need 1liter of fuel per hour then for the fuel with 10% ethanol you will need say 1.5 liter of fuel per hour to produce the same energy (700hp). *those numbers are arbitrary*

ok, so that's the first fact showing that pump gas will require more fuel be pushed therefore taxing the fuel requirements more than a race fuel that contains no ethanol.

Specific gravity comes into play also. This is also called "relative density". The more dense a fuel is the less fuel is required for the same output in energy. Depending on which race fuel you use determines if it is more or less dense than pump gas. c16 has a specific gravity of .735. General pump gas can be anywhere from .740. It will be less dense when you add the ethanol into it. Therefore per unit of fuel you get more energy from the c16 than the pump gas w/ethanol. That means your fuel pump can push LESS VOLUME and achieve the same power. Conversely, if you want to achieve the same power with pumpgas (less dense) you will need more volume of that fuel which means more strain on the fuel pump.

That being said it makes a huge difference on tuning and stress on a single fuel pump depending on the fuel type used. A less dense fuel will require the fuel pump to work harder to achieve the same power level. That is why a person can get more power from a race fuel verses a pump gas on a single fuel pump. Yes there is also the factors of timing and such, but without adjusting the timing just straight jetting will allow more power due to the density of the fuel.

ok, after all that i forgot where i was going with this. medical biochem is stuck in my brain so i'm fried. Lol. I think my point was that race fuel allows a person to put less strain on a fuel pump verses pump gas due to the amount the fuel pump has to pump. This also matters with methanol. Take a car tuned to a great a/f then you add meth injection to it. The a/f ratio will drop therefore allowing the user to reduce the amount of fuel to bring the a/f ratio back to normal. In laymens terms the meth adds fuel meaning that is less strain the single pump.

 

on a sidenote: i've never experimented with this on a car. I know all the specific gravity stuff from racing bikes and tuning them. I spent years tuning the carbs on racebikes and testing with different fuels for power output. Before i understood it all i was baffled at why i could swing 2 or 3 jet sizes just by changing the fuel. I had to setup jetting charts per each fuel we used so i could make fast adjustments depending on the race and fuel we had.

 

don't get your panties in a ruffle, we're just having a conversation..........first off, i'm not saying that you have a crappy ems and fuel pump inefficience regardless of what ems and/or head studs you are running will cause headlift. You see when a fuel pump is maxed out it doesn't hold steady pressure and when your fuel pressure drops your A/F will extremely lean out and cause detonation and headlift. However i will agree with you that L19's do help alot but does not assure you that you will not get headlift. And out of all the ems on the market adjust fuel by duty cycle not by fuel pump voltage. Also, ems in the occurance that they pick up a knock(detonation) they will pull igniton timing but unfortunately sometimes with all the cylinder pressure that comes with FI its too little too late. And if you were able to make that many passes and drive the car with that much power on a single pump and did not have issues then i say good for you and you were lucky.
i don't claim to be an expert i'm just giving you my opinion with alittle bit of reality. However if its upsetting you i will agree to disagree and call it a day.

De nada!

 

who cares. count how many pumps he has in his tank.
1 pump.

race gas, meth, etc is available to everyone so its not like he used some magical ingredient.

everything else is just arguing semantics

 

Very well put

 

That graph can oly be topped by the Supra graph

Would have been interesting to see that thing on the dyno when that happened

 

+1000
Hey! At least someone gets it!

The point is that some have argued that a Walbro 255 CANNOT obtain the power level. I WAS THE ONE that pointed out the other factors that they completely ignored in their factually incorrect assumption.

Binder, you have a great understanding of fuel and biochemistry. Thank you for proving our point, (though you thought you were arguing against it).

Nomyth- I'm not upset. I don't get emotional over something like this, I just wanted to clearly make my point that you were ignoring a lot of factors. For instance, the Pro-EFI will stop the head lift if the fuel pressure drops. In fact, this is exactly what was happening when I had low fuel levels. The fuel pressure was dropping from 48 to 35, but the Pro-EFI kept it from detonating and kept the A/F ratio where it should be. This is a major part of what prevented any head lift. Also, the L19's are incredible and do prevent head lift as well. Your statements were:
"the car wouldn't get two miles down the road until the heads started making their way north of the block."
AND
"you can make that # for like one pass on a dyno but you won't be albe (sic) to drive the car down the street without the engine coming apart or make multiple pass on the dyno or at the strip"

5,000+ miles over the course of 2 years
approximately a dozen (estimated from memory) 1/4 mile passes at high boost
No head lift
No detonation problems

Now...I did switch to the twin fuel pump, and I assure you it was not free! I spent a considerable sum of money on my build (over $65,000) and felt that the twin pump setup is a more reliable build and it allowed my tuner to be more aggressive with the tuning. He just called me while I was typing this to give me an update. You can clearly see massive improvements.

Previous low boost setting~ 14.7 PSI ~525WHP
New low boost setting~9PSI (spring pressure) ~450WHP (estimated, no dyno yet)

I certainly am not arguing that a single pump is sufficient for most high HP builds. I am merely demonstrating that the single pump CAN reach 700WHP, as it did for me and several others; that it can do so without head lift; that it can do so on the street and the track, not just on a dyno; and that running higher octane fuel does not mean that the single pump is now suddenly 2 pumps, rather you overlooked the details of my build before you made the contradictory statements.

It is commonly thrown around in this industry that a Walbro 255 is NOT good for more than 550WHP (insert variable number). As binder explained thoroughly, you cannot make claims like this, since there are other factors that greatly influence the WHP obtained with the same fuel pump. Maybe a more accurate way to make the same type of assertion is akin to: "On XX octane, with XXX injectors, etc, etc...a single Walbro 255 will provide reliable fuel pressure up to about YYY WHP." That's a far cry from "The Walbro can't do that! Snozzberries, You are Full of Ish! I know you are lying!...Oh wait, you put some high octane gas in your tank!?!?! That's cheating! That counts as TWO pumps!You have to use 85 Octane and blow up your engine! How dare you use common sense and go with a safer fuel!" (I keed, I keed...sort of)

BTW, Snozzberries!!!! LOL!!! I don't even know what that means, but it's hilarious!

 

I held that number and that chart back for 18 months. Please see my signature line...notice there is no mention of a high boost number yet. I stated multiple times that it is NOT reliable due to the transmission slipping. So...what's your point?

 

oh and did i miss something................this cat that you have doing the tuning is he street tuning your car? and not doing it on a dyno............ya know what i'm not going to say anything its your BBQ and as long as it taste good to you thats all that matters

Piece and Chicken Grease

 

The person who has Marshall's car (IMO) is the top tuner in the US, and has probably tuned over 10,000 cars. He is the only person I would ever let tune my car. Jason can tune a car on the street in 20 minutes, better than most tuners can on a dyno in 12 hours.

 

what statement of mine was a contradiction?.........i never said that because you are running C16 its like running two pumps that was never typed by my key board that is a completely ludacris statement.........i said that i classify C16 in the same category as nitrous and meth...............and congrats that your car lasted as long as it did but assure you that is an exception and not the rule.

 

Great

 

He is tuning it on the street, and in his shop. He is not tuning it on a dyno. Keep in mind, he already dyno tuned my car 18 months ago and is now retuning it for a twin pump. He probably doesn't need to change everything for it to be tuned properly. He also designed the EMS and the tuning software he is using, so he has a huge advantage there.

 

oh, well i'm not sure if i was arguing against or towards anything. It was more of a fact of how using race gas allows a person to get more out of a single pump system.

somewhere in that i lost train of thought . what power level a single pump can hold safely or not i have no idea....I moved over to cars from bikes and still have a car in the 400's so i'm not really running out of my single walbro.

 

and i last thing......who said anything about money?

 

yes, thats what im talking about, it can be done on the dyno, and its not safe i know that.

but it can be happend with math or bigger injectors, allot of ways.

 

I didn't say that you contradicted yourself. I said you made CONTRADICTORY statements. As in they contradict what I said about my car. As in argumentative. As in contrary to what others are saying. Here are the statements/posts that were contradictory to what I claimed about my car and about the capabilities of a single Walbro 255.


Taken along with the previous comment by BlackBird "he was spraying meth though, so technically not all single walbro"

I then stated that I was running C16.

You then tried to dismiss my 700WHP on a single pump:
My comment about changing suddenly to 2 pumps was an exaggeration, but it makes the point. You cannot state that a Walbro CANNOT run 700WHP on the street or track without head lift and then later dismiss anecdotal proof because you failed to consider that racing fuel may have been used when racing the car.

This is a good opportunity to change or clarify your stance. Maybe saying that MOST builds will need more than a single Walbro to reach those numbers. We were talking specifically about my car, so when you say it isn't possible, you sound like you are calling me out, without knowing anything about my car.

 

I don't know. I don't think anyone made a point about money at all. Who said anything about duck mating? Totally random question...