Twin Scroll Turbos and Tubular Manifolds
^Having experience with both, SFR's standard kit is like SP's standard kit, in that they both appear to be ebay-like manifolds with the end cut off and an extension welded on for turbo flange (and wg mount). Both companies offer upgraded manifolds with better collectors and design, which would be my preference.
As for a head-to-head comparison of cast to tubular - tubular headers leave the cast headers in the dust when you seek great performance. It is easy to add a turbo and run 5-10psi which adds "some" power and "feels good". It is much more difficult to build an efficient setup to maximize power at higher levels.
Quadcam, nice comments regarding what most desire and why cast works for most currently. It is unfortunate, but true. Many have the mentality like *boose* above, "20psi is enough for great numbers", and that is the end. Yes, that is probably "great numbers" for most, but my question to those people... do you know what 30 or 40psi feels like (on an efficient setup)?
Unfortunately the cast-header people will never know.
Twin scroll would best be utilized in a single-turbo configuration on the Z, but spacing constraints make it difficult to run two separate exhaust inlet pipes. Also the available single turbo kits are small enough that spool isn't much of a concern.
As for a head-to-head comparison of cast to tubular - tubular headers leave the cast headers in the dust when you seek great performance. It is easy to add a turbo and run 5-10psi which adds "some" power and "feels good". It is much more difficult to build an efficient setup to maximize power at higher levels.
Quadcam, nice comments regarding what most desire and why cast works for most currently. It is unfortunate, but true. Many have the mentality like *boose* above, "20psi is enough for great numbers", and that is the end. Yes, that is probably "great numbers" for most, but my question to those people... do you know what 30 or 40psi feels like (on an efficient setup)?
Unfortunately the cast-header people will never know. Twin scroll would best be utilized in a single-turbo configuration on the Z, but spacing constraints make it difficult to run two separate exhaust inlet pipes. Also the available single turbo kits are small enough that spool isn't much of a concern.
This is about the only way you could get a good twin scroll on our car:
Note that I opted out of doing a twin scroll but I could have easily done it with that setup. Unfortunately though, it took a ton of work to get everything to fit which most people are not willing to do.
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Hal... You have to understand that not all of us on here drag race....most on here know that I don't ..... So when you make a blanket statement that tube leaves cast in the dust... I cannot agree.
I attend the 24 hours of Daytona every year.... Either racing or just to watch.... I have yet to see any tubes running in this event. I have seen a few big power TT vetts that had issues with cracks.....if you are speaking of drag racing... Then I will agree ... You will get better flow at high psi's....... But on a road course or auto X.... Not a chance in hell an equal powered car ... (One with tube and the other with cast).... The tube would not have a chance.
As some of you know... I am adding a TT tube setup to another car...i had to go with tube because of where the motor sits.... I got to drive it last week and I got pissed because of the amount of lag and wasted money!!!
I have taken a perfect road course car and turned it into a straight line only car. Even with the added power I would be slower on a small track
I did alot of research before going with GTM..... I wanted a different setup and SFR or SP was a thought.... But I had to look at what the car would be use for ... With my driving style... I had to go with Cast. If there was a tube setup that was close to the motor and could withstand my abuse without cracking... Then I would go in that direction.
I attend the 24 hours of Daytona every year.... Either racing or just to watch.... I have yet to see any tubes running in this event. I have seen a few big power TT vetts that had issues with cracks.....if you are speaking of drag racing... Then I will agree ... You will get better flow at high psi's....... But on a road course or auto X.... Not a chance in hell an equal powered car ... (One with tube and the other with cast).... The tube would not have a chance.
As some of you know... I am adding a TT tube setup to another car...i had to go with tube because of where the motor sits.... I got to drive it last week and I got pissed because of the amount of lag and wasted money!!!
I have taken a perfect road course car and turned it into a straight line only car. Even with the added power I would be slower on a small track
I did alot of research before going with GTM..... I wanted a different setup and SFR or SP was a thought.... But I had to look at what the car would be use for ... With my driving style... I had to go with Cast. If there was a tube setup that was close to the motor and could withstand my abuse without cracking... Then I would go in that direction.
^Having experience with both, SFR's standard kit is like SP's standard kit, in that they both appear to be ebay-like manifolds with the end cut off and an extension welded on for turbo flange (and wg mount). Both companies offer upgraded manifolds with better collectors and design, which would be my preference.
As for a head-to-head comparison of cast to tubular - tubular headers leave the cast headers in the dust when you seek great performance. It is easy to add a turbo and run 5-10psi which adds "some" power and "feels good". It is much more difficult to build an efficient setup to maximize power at higher levels.
Quadcam, nice comments regarding what most desire and why cast works for most currently. It is unfortunate, but true. Many have the mentality like *boose* above, "20psi is enough for great numbers", and that is the end. Yes, that is probably "great numbers" for most, but my question to those people... do you know what 30 or 40psi feels like (on an efficient setup)? Unfortunately the cast-header people will never know.
Twin scroll would best be utilized in a single-turbo configuration on the Z, but spacing constraints make it difficult to run two separate exhaust inlet pipes. Also the available single turbo kits are small enough that spool isn't much of a concern.
As for a head-to-head comparison of cast to tubular - tubular headers leave the cast headers in the dust when you seek great performance. It is easy to add a turbo and run 5-10psi which adds "some" power and "feels good". It is much more difficult to build an efficient setup to maximize power at higher levels.
Quadcam, nice comments regarding what most desire and why cast works for most currently. It is unfortunate, but true. Many have the mentality like *boose* above, "20psi is enough for great numbers", and that is the end. Yes, that is probably "great numbers" for most, but my question to those people... do you know what 30 or 40psi feels like (on an efficient setup)?
Unfortunately the cast-header people will never know. Twin scroll would best be utilized in a single-turbo configuration on the Z, but spacing constraints make it difficult to run two separate exhaust inlet pipes. Also the available single turbo kits are small enough that spool isn't much of a concern.
Last edited by XKR; Mar 1, 2010 at 07:46 AM.
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Yea, I know for us wimpy street car guys SP has this design tubular mani.....when you become a big dog its a totally different setup. Larger primaries, larger collector, etc
As for whats best........first as whats the proper way to break in a motor....after we settle that argument then we can decide which exhaust manifold design is better!!!! lol
tom
As for whats best........first as whats the proper way to break in a motor....after we settle that argument then we can decide which exhaust manifold design is better!!!! lol
tom
^Having experience with both, SFR's standard kit is like SP's standard kit, in that they both appear to be ebay-like manifolds with the end cut off and an extension welded on for turbo flange (and wg mount). Both companies offer upgraded manifolds with better collectors and design, which would be my preference.
As for a head-to-head comparison of cast to tubular - tubular headers leave the cast headers in the dust when you seek great performance. It is easy to add a turbo and run 5-10psi which adds "some" power and "feels good". It is much more difficult to build an efficient setup to maximize power at higher levels.
Quadcam, nice comments regarding what most desire and why cast works for most currently. It is unfortunate, but true. Many have the mentality like *boose* above, "20psi is enough for great numbers", and that is the end. Yes, that is probably "great numbers" for most, but my question to those people... do you know what 30 or 40psi feels like (on an efficient setup)? Unfortunately the cast-header people will never know.
Twin scroll would best be utilized in a single-turbo configuration on the Z, but spacing constraints make it difficult to run two separate exhaust inlet pipes. Also the available single turbo kits are small enough that spool isn't much of a concern.
As for a head-to-head comparison of cast to tubular - tubular headers leave the cast headers in the dust when you seek great performance. It is easy to add a turbo and run 5-10psi which adds "some" power and "feels good". It is much more difficult to build an efficient setup to maximize power at higher levels.
Quadcam, nice comments regarding what most desire and why cast works for most currently. It is unfortunate, but true. Many have the mentality like *boose* above, "20psi is enough for great numbers", and that is the end. Yes, that is probably "great numbers" for most, but my question to those people... do you know what 30 or 40psi feels like (on an efficient setup)?
Unfortunately the cast-header people will never know. Twin scroll would best be utilized in a single-turbo configuration on the Z, but spacing constraints make it difficult to run two separate exhaust inlet pipes. Also the available single turbo kits are small enough that spool isn't much of a concern.
Only time I have seen a tubular manifold crack is because it was improperly welded or did not have the proper supports for the weight. Do you know what reasons the TT vetts' manifolds cracked?
Of course with the 350z cars running tubular or cast, it all depends on turbo placement. With a tubular manifold, the turbo will inherently sit much lower, larger turbo, and if not braced properly is a tremendous amount of weight hanging. With the cast manifold, the turbo is sitting higher and weighs less. I have seen many cast manifolds on 350z's cracked and replaced. Including APS, Greddy, and PE.
I attend the 24 hours of Daytona every year.... Either racing or just to watch.... I have yet to see any tubes running in this event. I have seen a few big power TT vetts that had issues with cracks.....if you are speaking of drag racing... Then I will agree ... You will get better flow at high psi's....... But on a road course or auto X.... Not a chance in hell an equal powered car ... (One with tube and the other with cast).... The tube would not have a chance.
Of course with the 350z cars running tubular or cast, it all depends on turbo placement. With a tubular manifold, the turbo will inherently sit much lower, larger turbo, and if not braced properly is a tremendous amount of weight hanging. With the cast manifold, the turbo is sitting higher and weighs less. I have seen many cast manifolds on 350z's cracked and replaced. Including APS, Greddy, and PE.
I attend the 24 hours of Daytona every year.... Either racing or just to watch.... I have yet to see any tubes running in this event. I have seen a few big power TT vetts that had issues with cracks.....if you are speaking of drag racing... Then I will agree ... You will get better flow at high psi's....... But on a road course or auto X.... Not a chance in hell an equal powered car ... (One with tube and the other with cast).... The tube would not have a chance.
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Only time I have seen a tubular manifold crack is because it was improperly welded or did not have the proper supports for the weight. Do you know what reasons the TT vetts' manifolds cracked?
Of course with the 350z cars running tubular or cast, it all depends on turbo placement. With a tubular manifold, the turbo will inherently sit much lower, larger turbo, and if not braced properly is a tremendous amount of weight hanging. With the cast manifold, the turbo is sitting higher and weighs less. I have seen many cast manifolds on 350z's cracked and replaced. Including APS, Greddy, and PE.
Of course with the 350z cars running tubular or cast, it all depends on turbo placement. With a tubular manifold, the turbo will inherently sit much lower, larger turbo, and if not braced properly is a tremendous amount of weight hanging. With the cast manifold, the turbo is sitting higher and weighs less. I have seen many cast manifolds on 350z's cracked and replaced. Including APS, Greddy, and PE.
I have also seen cracks in cast manifolds... Not many... But yes I know it can happn.... But my point about usage of cast vs tube still holds. No one can say one is over all better than the other in every form of usage.
Example... G/Z
Street driven friendly :::: Cast
Highway high speed :::: Tube / Cast
Drag racing:::: Tube
Road course :::: Cast... Especially if it's a small track
Auto X or Autocross ::::: Cast
If a tube can be made to place the turbos in the same location as my Log.... I am in
Last edited by XKR; Mar 1, 2010 at 12:00 PM.
Efficiency aside, there is so little space as it is in our cars. Space is at a premium and efficient manifolds take up space! It's not so much about optimum efficiency as the return on investment to get the car up and running again. I see no reason to be "sad" about the folks taking the easy way to reach their power goals. Log style manifolds are simply the best choice for most people, which is why they are so popular.
With the advent of the GTM stage 5/6, what is the motivation to invest the extra time, effort, and money for power that most drivers will rarely use?
With the advent of the GTM stage 5/6, what is the motivation to invest the extra time, effort, and money for power that most drivers will rarely use?
Last edited by rcdash; Mar 2, 2010 at 05:15 AM.
logs definitely go in easier than tubular. low hangers require a good bit more work. and in that respect, i think that the cast gives a better cold side pipe routing.
I think for 99% of the the VQ guys it doesnt really matter and in that cast the ease of install is a better option
I think for 99% of the the VQ guys it doesnt really matter and in that cast the ease of install is a better option
Cast manifolds are definitely cheaper than a tubular manifold and that is why most of the turbo kits that are available and sold use this type. If a tubular manifold was fabricated for an individual, diameter of pipe used, length of runners, turbo sizing, etc. I think a tubular manifold in both quality and productivity would always win over a cast. But since everyone's choice can't be for only drag racing, or autox, or road racing, or top end highway pulls in another country with no laws, it would be hard to develop and impossible for a one size fits all.
I am still waiting on a customer using a GTM stage 5/6 to make big power with the cast manifolds. I think it is possible to be done, but I believe these manifolds to be in comparison with the APS ones and if I can remember correctly the pipe ID is small.
I am still waiting on a customer using a GTM stage 5/6 to make big power with the cast manifolds. I think it is possible to be done, but I believe these manifolds to be in comparison with the APS ones and if I can remember correctly the pipe ID is small.
Efficiency aside, there is so little space as it is in our cars. Space is at a premium and efficient manifolds take up space! It's not so much about optimum efficiency as the return on investment to get the car up and running again. I see no reason to be "sad" about the folks taking the "easy" way to reach their power goals. Log style manifolds are simply the best choice for most people, which is why they are so popular.
With the advent of the GTM stage 5/6, what is the motivation to invest the extra time, effort, and money for power that most drivers will rarely use?
With the advent of the GTM stage 5/6, what is the motivation to invest the extra time, effort, and money for power that most drivers will rarely use?
^ I believe that is the primary difference. I believe we've seen past 800 whp on a DD dyno with log manifolds with XKR's setup. So I think it'd be safe to say that with power goals around or under 1000 whp, log manifolds will likely take you there with less time, money and effort expended.
Last edited by rcdash; Mar 1, 2010 at 01:42 PM.
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I don't know if that blanket of a statement can be made just yet...especially since what, 5 vq's have made over 850rwhp on any dyno.
And nothing against XKR's build, but 1) how many miles are on it, 2) not exactly a basic setup (stroker motor, ported heads)
But Mike is definately breaking new ground for others to follow.
Tom
And nothing against XKR's build, but 1) how many miles are on it, 2) not exactly a basic setup (stroker motor, ported heads)
But Mike is definately breaking new ground for others to follow.
Tom
^ I believe that is the primary difference. I believe we've seen past 800 whp on a DD dyno with log manifolds with XKR's setup. So I think it'd be safe to say that with power goals around or under 1000 whp, log manifolds will likely take you there with less time, money and effort expended.
theres more than 5, unless you mean true 3.5L cars.
Theres more than a few builds that could hit 850 I think. Any of those GT3076 or bigger kits could do it. The 20g kits should be able to as well.
But until people do it, its just a cool as saying, ya sure my car will go 10s, but i've never done it yet... blah blah
Theres more than a few builds that could hit 850 I think. Any of those GT3076 or bigger kits could do it. The 20g kits should be able to as well.
But until people do it, its just a cool as saying, ya sure my car will go 10s, but i've never done it yet... blah blah
Quadcam, nice comments regarding what most desire and why cast works for most currently. It is unfortunate, but true. Many have the mentality like *boose* above, "20psi is enough for great numbers", and that is the end. Yes, that is probably "great numbers" for most, but my question to those people... do you know what 30 or 40psi feels like (on an efficient setup)? Unfortunately the cast-header people will never know.
Unfortunately the cast-header people will never know.(i haz custom tubular headers too, and no they are not bastarized ebays lol)
Last edited by IIQuickSilverII; Mar 1, 2010 at 03:18 PM.
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Cast manifolds are definitely cheaper than a tubular manifold and that is why most of the turbo kits that are available and sold use this type. If a tubular manifold was fabricated for an individual, diameter of pipe used, length of runners, turbo sizing, etc. I think a tubular manifold in both quality and productivity would always win over a cast. But since everyone's choice can't be for only drag racing, or autox, or road racing, or top end highway pulls in another country with no laws, it would be hard to develop and impossible for a one size fits all.
I am still waiting on a customer using a GTM stage 5/6 to make big power with the cast manifolds. I think it is possible to be done, but I believe these manifolds to be in comparison with the APS ones and if I can remember correctly the pipe ID is small.
I am still waiting on a customer using a GTM stage 5/6 to make big power with the cast manifolds. I think it is possible to be done, but I believe these manifolds to be in comparison with the APS ones and if I can remember correctly the pipe ID is small.
What do you mean by "Big Power"? 800, 900, 1000+?? Because I have already made 815whp on Sharifs dyno.....a dyno thats always 13 to 14% less than ALL the dyno Jets I have used.....Matter of fact, Raj and Paul used Injected's DD dyno at ZdayZ and made more power than on Sharifs DD.... Making 875whp on FP DD will be done after Zdayz which will put me right at 1000 or I will just take it to a DJ in Houston.
As far as Tube manifolds go on the G/Z ...The bigger the power/Turbo...the less street friendly the car becomes......yes they can make more power up top than the Log....but you give up alot to get there. I did not have to give up anything with my setup.....OK maybe just a soft clutch.
Most of the guys I have met at ZdayZ and also on here are looking for the same thing I am looking for.....An all around car.....Street and track friendly.
Now for the record....I did not set a limit for Sharif when I was doing this last build.....All I told him was I wanted a car with over 800 on his dyno that would remain street friendly....I will accept a little lag but it must perform on a road course. So I did not go with the LOG because I was looking to save money. If the Tube setup could give me the performance I am looking for, then thats what I would have had installed.
Tom's tube setup is perfect for what he wanted the car to do.....and my Log is perfect for what I use the car for.