The MaxHax Outcome
11-07-2003, 04:45 PM
#41
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Originally posted by elektrik_juggernaut
There are multiple ATI's that have gone bad. ATI has yet to address this.
There are multiple ATI's that have gone bad. ATI has yet to address this.
Last edited by cbsuper; 11-07-2003 at 04:49 PM.
11-07-2003, 04:50 PM
#42
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Originally posted by whosdady
Did Max say he never hit boost to anyone including the court? No,
Did Max say he never hit boost to anyone including the court? No,
The difference was my car was tuned perfectly thus no holes in pistons.
Sounds like it was safe to him, safe to FF.If he knows so much about the 350z and what is a safe A/F is why didn't he tell them to change it, if he thought it was lean? Since he did state that he was there when they tuned it.
Constant boost ( lots of highway abuse) = Heat soaked intercooler/loss of cooling effect. Higher temp intake air = detonation.
Ding Ding Ding. This is why between dyno pulls there are cool down periods, and also fans used. No dyno place does back to back pulls since it's not safe to the motor. That same principal applys out on the roads, and highways.Everyone that has a F/I car knows that. Drifting cars take the most abuse since the heavy loads, and low air speed across the intercoolers fins. Yes everyone wants to beat on a car and have fun with it. But......
When dealing with cars that where never designed for F/I, a little moderation has to be used. "Mechanical Sympathy" is something everyone needs to have when dealing with modified cars. Cause it's often easy to get greedy with N20, Boost, etc. Ever seen what a crank looks like when it's getting balanced? Just spinning at 2000 RPM makes you back away, cause you think it's comming apart, as the wind from it parts your hair back. Or Rods, think of what a piston weights....almost nothing right? Then add what speed it is traveling up and down a bore at 7000 RPM. That speed and mass start adding up fast. It's pretty close to attaching a connecting rod to a entire VW beetle, and start swinging it over your head at a rapid rate. Makes you think about that poor little guy in there. Now thing about adding the stresses of the TQ gains N20 gives you, or F/I
Point of this is WHOSDADDY, is that you state your car is "tuned perfect" I am willing to bet if you hand me the keys I could hurt the motor just like Max, if I don't use some mechanical symphthy. Perfect Tune or not. I could do a couple long highway pulls on it, heating up the intercooler. Bang it off the rev limiter for a good while, maybe do a little parking lot drifting, and some burn outs (no air over intercooler + load). If this was to happen and I hurt the motor, would you call your tuner and sue them? Doubtfull. Just like Nissan would laugh at the warranty if the car came in with a blown motor and F/I or N20.
I personally disagree with what seems to be an attack on Max. (IE: accusing him of a slip up)
Its not a personal attack to Max, I just find it funny that it's called MOTORSPORTS, it's a fight to say who is king of the hill, and we all know the risks we take. Take a look at any die hard street racer, it's always a fight to be the fastest. And most know there will be months of hardship when things go wrong. But thats part of the game, to deal with those situations and move on to bigger and better parts. Sometimes it can be just simple driver error that leads to disaster, but we all move on and learn from the situation.
I just don't want to see this happen anyone..... members, or vendors. It's a all around bad deal, where as I said.... Both will come out losers in the end.
EA
ALL: If people on this forum feel that what I have offered doesn't have any meaning then well..... I will go back to lurking. None the less, I have wasted to much time on this topic, and don't wish to offend anyone. Sorry to those that feel that way, I do applologize.
SteamingRice: Good Post no offence taken, Maybe FF will post about the events? Maybe not, who knows.
G3PO: I remember those posts as well. I remember hearing about the jetting being swapped, and melting plugs, poor pistons. Then the posts were edited after all this started going down. Personaly I think we would have been hearing about a motor failure from this car F/I or not.
Last edited by TheSVTKid; 11-07-2003 at 04:54 PM.
11-07-2003, 04:53 PM
#43
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Originally posted by cbsuper
Are the SC'ers bad or are the tuners not tuning them properly?
Are the SC'ers bad or are the tuners not tuning them properly?
Last edited by elektrik_juggernaut; 11-07-2003 at 04:56 PM.
11-07-2003, 05:19 PM
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I was browsing around on the other board and found a link to this site regarding the same subject. It seems that there's been a lot of bad blood passed between this guy Max and his installer. Really sucks what happened to him.
There's another problem with all that's being said. SVTkid has a point and no one's really paying attention. And I'll get flamed for this too, I'm absolutely sure of it. However, this is a quote for said other board.
My response there will be the same here. Isn't "mine was taken under submission" not an actual decision? I mean, maybe there was a "the counter suit was thrown out" but last I checked this quote means that things aren't actually "decided" in any one person's favor or the other.
Just wondering. Flame away, I expect it.
There's another problem with all that's being said. SVTkid has a point and no one's really paying attention. And I'll get flamed for this too, I'm absolutely sure of it. However, this is a quote for said other board.
Richard,
Yes, I do have to collect the money from him and the way he was acting it may prove difficult but I will me mailed a document and it's legal. I can garnish his wages etc. The Bailiff was nice he said it's a court order to pay me money but it's up to me to collect it. Richard, why didn't the judge rule right there like he did everyone else’s? The other cases were all dismissed or worked out or continued. Mine was taken under submission???
He denied the counter suit and said mine was under submission with a mailed response? What does that mean?
Yes, I do have to collect the money from him and the way he was acting it may prove difficult but I will me mailed a document and it's legal. I can garnish his wages etc. The Bailiff was nice he said it's a court order to pay me money but it's up to me to collect it. Richard, why didn't the judge rule right there like he did everyone else’s? The other cases were all dismissed or worked out or continued. Mine was taken under submission???
He denied the counter suit and said mine was under submission with a mailed response? What does that mean?
Just wondering. Flame away, I expect it.
11-07-2003, 05:47 PM
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that means that the judge is still considering what the exact monetary award will be......the same thing happened when i had to sue over a botched alternator install on my MR2.......we both(the defendant and i) knew whose favor the judgement would be for, but we didn't know the number until the paperwork arrived in the mail.......considering that Max had documentation to support $10K in losses, i would be surprised if he was awarded less than the maximum $5K
11-07-2003, 08:19 PM
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SVTKid , I think want to be your mechanic and/or doctor since I know you'll never complain or sue even if I have a "minor" goof up. Damn, what an understanding guy!
11-07-2003, 09:02 PM
#48
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The big lesson to me over this is dont push it so hard so fast. Max is a risk taker to the "max" excuse the pun. I would never take my Z and run N20 and boost together especially if it had no proven to be reliable. My hat is off to you Max and others that are teaching me what not to do to my VQ35.
I will get my FI months after others and be a copy cat. Hopefully I will have learned what others mistakes were and not make the same ones. I would not enjoy even driving my car with a set up that might blow up my motor, it would just worry me too much. I would really hate myself if i blew up my motor just to be able to brag about getting 30 more hp. I want hp but not at any cost.
Actually, I am amazed Max got a judgement. I am the most vocal person on this board about reliability and service from an installer and company that manufactures FI kits but to be honest, if i did what max did, I could not imagine actually expecting them to eat that motor.
This judgement is good and bad. Good in that installers and manufactoures will tend to do it right to avoid risk and bad because some installer will not do it at all to avoid the law suits.
Installing a SC kit and getting paid $1200 is not good business if you end up having to eat labor and paying $5000 in parts to fix it later. There is certainly 2 sides to this story. I feel for all parties. No one wants a blown up motor and no one wants to pay for someone elses blown up motor.
I will get my FI months after others and be a copy cat. Hopefully I will have learned what others mistakes were and not make the same ones. I would not enjoy even driving my car with a set up that might blow up my motor, it would just worry me too much. I would really hate myself if i blew up my motor just to be able to brag about getting 30 more hp. I want hp but not at any cost.
Actually, I am amazed Max got a judgement. I am the most vocal person on this board about reliability and service from an installer and company that manufactures FI kits but to be honest, if i did what max did, I could not imagine actually expecting them to eat that motor.
This judgement is good and bad. Good in that installers and manufactoures will tend to do it right to avoid risk and bad because some installer will not do it at all to avoid the law suits.
Installing a SC kit and getting paid $1200 is not good business if you end up having to eat labor and paying $5000 in parts to fix it later. There is certainly 2 sides to this story. I feel for all parties. No one wants a blown up motor and no one wants to pay for someone elses blown up motor.
Last edited by zland; 11-07-2003 at 09:05 PM.
11-07-2003, 09:42 PM
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well, if it goes in his favor than that's a good thing, i guess. i suppose it doesn't help that i don't know the whole story. i'm guessing that this is something that's been going on for quite some time, especially considering that the other board had a huge letter from max.
however, just for the record
and
i found this for california at http://www.sidebar.com/rostrove/smallclaims.html
without stepping on any toes, be careful in thinking that the judge has made a final decision without the actual letter recieved in his hands.
Best of luck!
however, just for the record
Q: My case was taken under submission. Has a ruling been entered?
A: The judge has up to 90 days to make a ruling on a case that has been taken under submission. Notice of the ruling will be mailed to you when a decision has been made.
A: The judge has up to 90 days to make a ruling on a case that has been taken under submission. Notice of the ruling will be mailed to you when a decision has been made.
Under Submission: When the judge does not make a decision at the conclusion of the trial, but instead later notifies the parties of the decision by mail.
without stepping on any toes, be careful in thinking that the judge has made a final decision without the actual letter recieved in his hands.
Best of luck!
11-07-2003, 10:33 PM
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Originally posted by lastchance
without stepping on any toes, be careful in thinking that the judge has made a final decision without the actual letter recieved in his hands.
without stepping on any toes, be careful in thinking that the judge has made a final decision without the actual letter recieved in his hands.
11-08-2003, 03:36 AM
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Chris, I agree with you. I use to talk to max quite a bit and he was very very helpful in my nitrous install on my G in the beginning of the year. I do recall him getting fed up with zex and even posted on one of the original ATI post offering up his credit card and who wanted to buy his zex kit. I'm almost sure that the kit was sold before he received his procharger. Someone might want to go back in the archives but I do recall this.
11-08-2003, 07:27 AM
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If you are going to quote, please quote in context
[QUOTE]Originally posted by TheSVTKid
[B]You nor I, know that. Neither of us were in the court. But yes months ago he had posts bragging about beating on it on the way home. Then days later they were edited saying it wasn't in boost, and it was driven easy. I started to raise an eyebrow about that but didn't say anything.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Excuse my inability to quote by paragraph
First of all you don't need to be in court to know what was said. Freinds are able to speak to one another, on or off the forums. Second of all, how do you know anything about me or what I know?
Concerning some posts that Max has made in the past. It looks like you are only reading or remembering what you want to. For example, Max in the post you quoted earlier said he was on boost. (Correct) Max also said he "had 369 hp or whatever." That figure was an estimation if you recall. Max had to guess what his numbers were. It is my opinion that they were much lower and thus he didn't have the problem of shifting with an auto. This was the whole point of the thread you quoted earlier. If you would have included that rather than being accusatory. (IE quoting out of context) I would be more understanding of your judgements made on others, for whatever reason.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Why does max post saying it "couldn't have been more tuned"? Sounds like it was safe to him, safe to FF.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What Max meant by this was he was running lean opposed to running rich. Those who are running lean are putting down higher numbers. He was trying to say his car was making lots of HP. This is a comman characteristic of any car owner. (IE when you go to the track and one guy says he made a 10 sec pass last year and you see him make 2 12 sec passes in a row. Everyone is hoping there car is faster than it really is, especially after shelling out what Max did) Max's car was so lean in fact that before he got it back there was considerable damage to to pistons and a rod. I'm suprised after reading or watching Max like you do, that you didn't know what he meant. Take a look at some of his posts. They are sometimes made at 4:30 am. I would hate to read some of the things I would write at that time of day.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If he knows so much about the 350z and what is a safe A/F is why didn't he tell them to change it, if he thought it was lean? Since he did state that he was there when they tuned it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Max has paved the way for many to follow. He was the first to have the S/C installed. No one really knew what the kit was capable of. Max did what he thought was best. IMHO his only mistake was having a shop with no experience with a 350Z S/C in stall it. I personally chose MC Racing because of there realtionship with ATI and experience with tuning the kit on other 350Z/ATI cars.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Constant boost ( lots of highway abuse) = Heat soaked intercooler/loss of cooling effect. Higher temp intake air = detonation. Ding Ding Ding. This is why between dyno pulls there are cool down periods, and also fans used. No dyno place does back to back pulls since it's not safe to the motor. That same principal applys out on the roads, and highways.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is all your speculation. I'm not sure what your motives are?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Everyone that has a F/I car knows that. Drifting cars take the most abuse since the heavy loads, and low air speed across the intercoolers fins. Yes everyone wants to beat on a car and have fun with it. But......
When dealing with cars that where never designed for F/I, a little moderation has to be used. "Mechanical Sympathy" is something everyone needs to have when dealing with modified cars. Cause it's often easy to get greedy with N20, Boost, etc. Ever seen what a crank looks like when it's getting balanced? Just spinning at 2000 RPM makes you back away, cause you think it's comming apart, as the wind from it parts your hair back. Or Rods, think of what a piston weights....almost nothing right? Then add what speed it is traveling up and down a bore at 7000 RPM. That speed and mass start adding up fast. It's pretty close to attaching a connecting rod to a entire VW beetle, and start swinging it over your head at a rapid rate. Makes you think about that poor little guy in there. Now thing about adding the stresses of the TQ gains N20 gives you, or F/I
Point of this is WHOSDADDY, is that you state your car is "tuned perfect" I am willing to bet if you hand me the keys I could hurt the motor just like Max, if I don't use some mechanical symphthy. Perfect Tune or not. I could do a couple long highway pulls on it, heating up the intercooler. Bang it off the rev limiter for a good while, maybe do a little parking lot drifting, and some burn outs (no air over intercooler + load). If this was to happen and I hurt the motor, would you call your tuner and sue them? Doubtfull. Just like Nissan would laugh at the warranty if the car came in with a blown motor and F/I or N20.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well, again I'm not sure what your point is? You could take a stock 350Z, destroy it and Nissan will of course pay for it? Just like a shop that installs a S/C that 150 miles later destroys the engine, they will pay for it as well. Its called standing behind your work. That is why FF lost the case. What are you trying to say?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When this whole mess started, I never posted anything against the guy. Frankly I felt really bad for him and still do, and wondered what could have gone wrong. The only thing that has changed is that I feel bad for both parties, max, and the motorsports place. Now that there is no "fact" in this case any longer, due to many changing stories, and just a lot of speculation. I started to voice the "discrepencys" that started showing up, not my opinions.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Discrepencys are easily made when you take things out of context. Thats how rumors start. This is why there are some poeple that question Max's story. Stick to facts and avoid filling in the gaps to make your point. This will make this forum a happy place for all to enjoy.
[B]You nor I, know that. Neither of us were in the court. But yes months ago he had posts bragging about beating on it on the way home. Then days later they were edited saying it wasn't in boost, and it was driven easy. I started to raise an eyebrow about that but didn't say anything.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Excuse my inability to quote by paragraph
First of all you don't need to be in court to know what was said. Freinds are able to speak to one another, on or off the forums. Second of all, how do you know anything about me or what I know?
Concerning some posts that Max has made in the past. It looks like you are only reading or remembering what you want to. For example, Max in the post you quoted earlier said he was on boost. (Correct) Max also said he "had 369 hp or whatever." That figure was an estimation if you recall. Max had to guess what his numbers were. It is my opinion that they were much lower and thus he didn't have the problem of shifting with an auto. This was the whole point of the thread you quoted earlier. If you would have included that rather than being accusatory. (IE quoting out of context) I would be more understanding of your judgements made on others, for whatever reason.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Why does max post saying it "couldn't have been more tuned"?
Sounds like it was safe to him, safe to FF.---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What Max meant by this was he was running lean opposed to running rich. Those who are running lean are putting down higher numbers. He was trying to say his car was making lots of HP. This is a comman characteristic of any car owner. (IE when you go to the track and one guy says he made a 10 sec pass last year and you see him make 2 12 sec passes in a row. Everyone is hoping there car is faster than it really is, especially after shelling out what Max did) Max's car was so lean in fact that before he got it back there was considerable damage to to pistons and a rod. I'm suprised after reading or watching Max like you do, that you didn't know what he meant. Take a look at some of his posts. They are sometimes made at 4:30 am. I would hate to read some of the things I would write at that time of day.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If he knows so much about the 350z and what is a safe A/F is why didn't he tell them to change it, if he thought it was lean? Since he did state that he was there when they tuned it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Max has paved the way for many to follow. He was the first to have the S/C installed. No one really knew what the kit was capable of. Max did what he thought was best. IMHO his only mistake was having a shop with no experience with a 350Z S/C in stall it. I personally chose MC Racing because of there realtionship with ATI and experience with tuning the kit on other 350Z/ATI cars.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Constant boost ( lots of highway abuse) = Heat soaked intercooler/loss of cooling effect. Higher temp intake air = detonation.
Ding Ding Ding. This is why between dyno pulls there are cool down periods, and also fans used. No dyno place does back to back pulls since it's not safe to the motor. That same principal applys out on the roads, and highways.-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is all your speculation. I'm not sure what your motives are?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Everyone that has a F/I car knows that. Drifting cars take the most abuse since the heavy loads, and low air speed across the intercoolers fins. Yes everyone wants to beat on a car and have fun with it. But......
When dealing with cars that where never designed for F/I, a little moderation has to be used. "Mechanical Sympathy" is something everyone needs to have when dealing with modified cars. Cause it's often easy to get greedy with N20, Boost, etc. Ever seen what a crank looks like when it's getting balanced? Just spinning at 2000 RPM makes you back away, cause you think it's comming apart, as the wind from it parts your hair back. Or Rods, think of what a piston weights....almost nothing right? Then add what speed it is traveling up and down a bore at 7000 RPM. That speed and mass start adding up fast. It's pretty close to attaching a connecting rod to a entire VW beetle, and start swinging it over your head at a rapid rate. Makes you think about that poor little guy in there. Now thing about adding the stresses of the TQ gains N20 gives you, or F/I
Point of this is WHOSDADDY, is that you state your car is "tuned perfect" I am willing to bet if you hand me the keys I could hurt the motor just like Max, if I don't use some mechanical symphthy. Perfect Tune or not. I could do a couple long highway pulls on it, heating up the intercooler. Bang it off the rev limiter for a good while, maybe do a little parking lot drifting, and some burn outs (no air over intercooler + load). If this was to happen and I hurt the motor, would you call your tuner and sue them? Doubtfull. Just like Nissan would laugh at the warranty if the car came in with a blown motor and F/I or N20.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well, again I'm not sure what your point is? You could take a stock 350Z, destroy it and Nissan will of course pay for it? Just like a shop that installs a S/C that 150 miles later destroys the engine, they will pay for it as well. Its called standing behind your work. That is why FF lost the case. What are you trying to say?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When this whole mess started, I never posted anything against the guy. Frankly I felt really bad for him and still do, and wondered what could have gone wrong. The only thing that has changed is that I feel bad for both parties, max, and the motorsports place. Now that there is no "fact" in this case any longer, due to many changing stories, and just a lot of speculation. I started to voice the "discrepencys" that started showing up, not my opinions.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Discrepencys are easily made when you take things out of context. Thats how rumors start. This is why there are some poeple that question Max's story. Stick to facts and avoid filling in the gaps to make your point. This will make this forum a happy place for all to enjoy.
Last edited by whosdady; 11-08-2003 at 10:16 AM.
11-08-2003, 06:18 PM
#55
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Originally posted by rouxeny
Yes it is kind of funny.
How....convenient.....that those posts are missing.
Luckily, enough remains that the people will get the gist of it.
Yes it is kind of funny.
How....convenient.....that those posts are missing.
Luckily, enough remains that the people will get the gist of it.
Confusion then too.
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