Dynosty does Boosted Performance Build (PICS)
02-07-2011, 07:34 PM
#61
Were high AIT's an issue in these dyno runs?Research shows that 90% of the cooling is done in the first 6-8" of the intercooler, and this is why I chose to go with that. Keep in mind that APS intercooler is the same design and has a 9" tall core that supports 700hp.
02-07-2011, 08:55 PM
#64
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It still doesn't make sense. ya people can say "compresison on a stock block is higher so it will produce more power" but that doesn't make sense if the theory is restriction in the exhaust. If a restriction from stock heads and headers is causing it to choke down then it would choke it no matter if it was 11:1 compression or 8:1 compression therefore a stock compression motor with stock heads/cams/headers should choke the same time a low compression motor with stock heads/cams/headers.
High iat's won't make power drop that hard unless they are super high. Mine have been pretty high on hal's dyno and it didn't drop off anything remotely like that. I was on a considerably smaller turbine housing also.
edit: the high temps i'm talking about were with my vortech. Temps got into the 190's on the dyno and it didn't drop power like that.
I will be going back to stock heads/cams which will prove that the heads/cams aren't the issue. I will still be running cheap ebay JVT headers on my car but i highly doubt headers are keeping a 700hp turbo down to low 400 range.
Last edited by binder; 02-07-2011 at 09:02 PM.
02-07-2011, 11:35 PM
#65
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binder , this is going to make or brake my build. im going with the same headers as you with my setup... everything on my check list is done. sasha got my vote on solving this issue!!. im willing to bet there was something funky that went down.
02-08-2011, 06:01 AM
#66
Yeah Hal you have the heart breaker. we took our test Mule on the road for a week to show it to a few of our dealers. The results were as follows:
National Speed 395 rwhp (4 wheel Dyno jet)
Forged Performance 384 RWHP (4 wheel Dyno dynamics)
Z1 409 (2 wheel dyno jet)
Injected/Dynosty 349 (2 wheel dyno dynamics)
Sasha, not trying to hijack, but all dynos are not created equal and we saw some pretty good deviations in same brand dynos.
We used our car as the control and used pump gas a readily available, all of it 93 octane and our base Map tune out of the box. There was a 60 whp difference from all four dynos, and 24 whp difference between dynojets and 35 whp difference between the dyno dynamics.
National Speed 395 rwhp (4 wheel Dyno jet)
Forged Performance 384 RWHP (4 wheel Dyno dynamics)
Z1 409 (2 wheel dyno jet)
Injected/Dynosty 349 (2 wheel dyno dynamics)
Sasha, not trying to hijack, but all dynos are not created equal and we saw some pretty good deviations in same brand dynos.
We used our car as the control and used pump gas a readily available, all of it 93 octane and our base Map tune out of the box. There was a 60 whp difference from all four dynos, and 24 whp difference between dynojets and 35 whp difference between the dyno dynamics.
I agree that the intercooler could be larger (vertical core) to improve thermal efficiency to bring the IAT's down, but I know it will flow plenty of air. This is the FMIC in question:
http://www.treadstoneperformance.com...es+Intercooler
Now, these guys also make the same intercooler with a 9" tall core. I just wish it wasn't winter here so I can order one, and do some real world street testing. This is a core identical in size to the APS ST and TT turbo systems:
http://www.treadstoneperformance.com...es+Intercooler
Last edited by Boosted Performance; 02-08-2011 at 06:46 AM.
02-08-2011, 07:08 AM
#67
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First thing we did when we made the one off GT42 kit, which is currently on Hal's Z, was ditch the stock headers. This was 5 or 6 years ago. The ID on them is pitifully small.
02-08-2011, 08:09 AM
#70
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Those are what we found to be the best option years ago. I am not sure I would use the "new" DC Sports headers, but the old design/style were very good quality.
02-08-2011, 09:25 AM
#71
so wait, this was a 67mm turbo? What were the AITs? No one really posted that they were high, yet everyone is jumping on that bandwagon.
RudeG,
What I know for sure:
-Turbo (6765 T4 .81 a/r) is capable of much more than this, and back pressure was not an issue.
-Exhaust pre-turbo piping is all 2.5” (other use 2.0” in places) and it also is capable of flowing a lot.
-IC piping is 2.75” from Turbo to IC, this is enough to support 1200cfm (Corky Bell)
-IC to TB piping is 3.0”, again plenty large
-FMIC will flow over 1000 cfm (as per advertisement) and the manufacturer tells me that supercharged mustangs have made 600whp with this same FMIC. So the flow (cfm) is there.
>>>>What I don’t know is the thermal efficiency of the IC, as it is a 6” tall core. A 9” would be better, as the air charge would spend more time in the IC, exposed to the ambient (cooling) air. This could be an issue when going with more than 12psi of boost.
What I know for sure:
-Turbo (6765 T4 .81 a/r) is capable of much more than this, and back pressure was not an issue.
-Exhaust pre-turbo piping is all 2.5” (other use 2.0” in places) and it also is capable of flowing a lot.
-IC piping is 2.75” from Turbo to IC, this is enough to support 1200cfm (Corky Bell)
-IC to TB piping is 3.0”, again plenty large
-FMIC will flow over 1000 cfm (as per advertisement) and the manufacturer tells me that supercharged mustangs have made 600whp with this same FMIC. So the flow (cfm) is there.
>>>>What I don’t know is the thermal efficiency of the IC, as it is a 6” tall core. A 9” would be better, as the air charge would spend more time in the IC, exposed to the ambient (cooling) air. This could be an issue when going with more than 12psi of boost.
02-08-2011, 09:46 AM
#72
Again, all of this leads us to believe that the OEM headers become an issue with this much gas being pushed through them. I just can't see a 3.5L engine breathing well through two 1.5" tubes.
The same thing was hapening with the T4 6265 .81 a/r. So we though that the turbo was an issue, hence the upgrade to a 67mm turbo.
Last edited by Boosted Performance; 02-08-2011 at 09:47 AM.
02-08-2011, 10:22 AM
#74
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I said that couldn't be the problem because my vortech was in the 190's and still didn't drop off power like this thing did.
02-08-2011, 10:30 AM
#76
Let's not get crazy here. I talked to people that have had their hands on the TN, PL and many other kits, and know the issues they have, and the ACTUAL power that they have put down.
I take this as a bump in the road, nothing else, and if there is a problem with the kit (and we don’t know that there is one for sure) it will be corrected rather quickly.
02-08-2011, 10:41 AM
#77
We spent a lot of time looking into the power drop with increased boost... including trying different turbos, ebp testing, monitoring air temps, pressure drop testing, pressure testing our install, smoke testing, checking the engine... at one point we even removed the turbo kit and dynoed NA to confirm the engine's tq curve was correct on it's own. In the end, we found the kit to have an acceptable curve and power at lower boost (example 6psi), but as boost increased - peak tq would increase but the tq drop slope would steepen. Comparing to other setups, such as Binders, there are few differences and my best educated guess is the factory 1.5" headers causing a restriction here. Imagine this... a 500+whp Z with dual 1.5" exhausts.... sounds funny doesn't it?
For anyone unaware, we use a Dyno Dynamics and we have measured 13% increase going to a Dynojet on the same day. This puts this car around 472whp, which is no slouch - but it doesn't explain the unnatural torque slope.
Hopefully we will see this car back in the shop in the near future for headers and then we'll see what it does on the dyno from there.
For now, everyone can get back to telling us how to do our job
For anyone unaware, we use a Dyno Dynamics and we have measured 13% increase going to a Dynojet on the same day. This puts this car around 472whp, which is no slouch - but it doesn't explain the unnatural torque slope.
Hopefully we will see this car back in the shop in the near future for headers and then we'll see what it does on the dyno from there.
For now, everyone can get back to telling us how to do our job
02-08-2011, 10:42 AM
#78
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also, as an FYI i have cheap JVT headers on my car so you odn't need to spend tons of money on headers. They were like 150ish on ebay. Since it's an FI engine you don't need special tuned headers like an NA car does.
02-08-2011, 11:17 AM
#79
Some here may be worried about the weight though, but I should say that the turbo does not use the headers as supports. You can take your olts off of the headers with the kit installed, and the pipes will not sag at all. The weight of the turbo and all the piping is supported by the entire exhaust system. Just though I clear that up, in case somebody comes up with the "they will crack do to weight" theory.
02-08-2011, 11:56 AM
#80
Too bad you couldnt have installed headers. probably woulda been faster than pulling the turbo kit etc...
too bad the car went home without a real solution.
too bad the car went home without a real solution.
We spent a lot of time looking into the power drop with increased boost... including trying different turbos, ebp testing, monitoring air temps, pressure drop testing, pressure testing our install, smoke testing, checking the engine... at one point we even removed the turbo kit and dynoed NA to confirm the engine's tq curve was correct on it's own.
Hopefully we will see this car back in the shop in the near future for headers and then we'll see what it does on the dyno from there.
Hopefully we will see this car back in the shop in the near future for headers and then we'll see what it does on the dyno from there.
Last edited by str8dum1; 02-08-2011 at 12:13 PM.