Question I've been wondering about...
I think I'm following you, here. Like I was saying about supporting mod's that broaden the torque curve. If you still have fairly high torque approaching max rpm's, your max power will be greater. If you can't make any more tq then you'd better be able to skyrocket your rpm's if you want big peak hp. Now you're on a motorcycle with a tiny engine but a 16,000+ red line.
I don't see how this explains away my hp as a rate comment, though. My thought was a force applied, lb, at a distance from a fixed point, ft, at a rate of time, /sec, gives you power. ft-lb/s. The ft-lb is the torque, generated from the force of setting fire to some dead dino-juice in a closed space. LoL!
I don't see how this explains away my hp as a rate comment, though. My thought was a force applied, lb, at a distance from a fixed point, ft, at a rate of time, /sec, gives you power. ft-lb/s. The ft-lb is the torque, generated from the force of setting fire to some dead dino-juice in a closed space. LoL!
Horsepower = (Measured TQ x rpm)/5252
That is also why the TQ and HP curves always intersect at 5252rpm.
I wouldn't say that's the only reason it was phased out. I actually like the UTEC and I think it works very well. But if we are being honest here the reasons the UTEC's "was phased out" is for the following.
1. Bad hardware(drivers would go bad, communication ports were finicky)
2. Lack of support for the products
3. Lack of support to the dealers and tuners selling and using them
4. Price point, compared to UPREV and COBB (when it was around) it is more expensive and doesn't do as much.
5. Turbo XS didn't continue to support the product as models and ECU configurations changed.
Ill agree with ya on the fact that a lot of shops threw it under the bus because they had tuning issues with it because of not fully understanding how to use it. I feel that goes back to TURBO XS though, not even trying to offer support to the dealers and tuners...
100% agree. We are saying the same thing in different ways. I know that the explosive force is too complex to measure easily and that a dyno does exactly what you are stating, but it is that force that generates the tq. The nerds that have to spec. out the rods and pistons etc need to have an estimate of the explosive force in the cyl. In the DE's case, I think that they chose rods that are more than suitable for the consumer, but in an FI application start to fail at whatever (much greater) explosion translates to ~420ish (+/- ???) tq at the wheel.
UTEC worked awesome on the 1/4 mile... but was rather annoying when passing traffic on the highway. I made a habit of pushing the clutch in when coming out of hard boost.
It also had the tentency to cause a limp startup, probably due to electrical tolerances not what the stock ECU was expecting. When I switched to uprev all the aforementioned issues are gone.
Now, my only gripe with uprev is the stupid thing pulls massive amounts of timing randomly, even with knock control completely off... I've confirmed it with another guy who confirmed it with several others...and I'm about to start a thread on it. ughh
it's always a give or take with aftermarket F/I. No solution is pure **** and @ss.
Anyways back to the original topic LOL
Last edited by djamps; Mar 24, 2011 at 10:07 AM.
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This was actually an informative thread for once...
Thank U Phreak for your query now we're back on track talking about our cars and sharing knowledge...
Good luck, A lot of good info here, put it to use!!!
Thank U Phreak for your query now we're back on track talking about our cars and sharing knowledge...
Good luck, A lot of good info here, put it to use!!!
i was just considering making a thread on it today, but i really dont have a ton of time to combine all the facts. But we really need to get one started so we can get this sh*t fixed
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Hey Phreaktor,
I agree with the folks like rh_334 that blame torque here’s why.
It’s really common to assume that power wrecks things but power is a rate at which energy is applied and that energy stems from a force. The torque generated results from a compressive load applied to the connecting rods and that force causes a stress and strain in the connecting rods. Once that stress is too high, the rod will bend beyond its elastic limit and experience plastic deformation. (Man, this is getting nerdy in a hurry…
) All that means is that it has bent far enough that it won’t “spring back” to its initial shape.
Think about bending a butter knife. You can bend it a little and it will return to its initial shape without a problem; but, it you bend it too far, one time and one time only, it will spring back a little, but not to the same shape it was before. That “one time” is represented by the torque. The horsepower represents you bending it a whole bunch of times but it doesn’t matter anymore if you already screwed it the first time you exceeded its bending stress.
Lost all your butter knives in some sort of “heat related” activity? How about we use a McD’s straw, then? Stand your straw on the table holding the bottom and push a bit on the top. It can support a reasonable load but if you push too hard it buckles* and it’ll never hold the same load it did before again. You can put a light load on it thousands of times and it doesn’t care, but the first time you exceed the limit, it’s pooched and the next thousand times you apply that load don’t matter anymore. *(Strictly speaking, column buckling isn’t the same but in a crude demo, this gets the point across…)
Of course, maintenance and manufacturing tolerances and whether the assembler tightened both of your con rod bolts before his coffee break all play a role in the variability of the final product and that is why there’s no magic torque number that bends rods and why binder gave a torque range based on his experience. The overly aggressive or inaccurate tune can also generate a force too high for the rods.
As for other modifications, I think it depends on what it does to your torque curve (but I’m open to others’ suggestions as I’m more thinking out loud now). If it increases your peak torque number beyond what your internals (most say the rods are the limiting factor) can handle, then you’re in trouble but often the supporting modification changes your torque curve in other ways. It can broaden it in such a way that gives you a higher maximum power, or it can add a bunch of torque in an area that was nowhere near the max torque before, so you’re seeing and feeling a benefit without exceeding the maximum stress that your rods can take.
Hope this helps.
I agree with the folks like rh_334 that blame torque here’s why.
It’s really common to assume that power wrecks things but power is a rate at which energy is applied and that energy stems from a force. The torque generated results from a compressive load applied to the connecting rods and that force causes a stress and strain in the connecting rods. Once that stress is too high, the rod will bend beyond its elastic limit and experience plastic deformation. (Man, this is getting nerdy in a hurry…
) All that means is that it has bent far enough that it won’t “spring back” to its initial shape.Think about bending a butter knife. You can bend it a little and it will return to its initial shape without a problem; but, it you bend it too far, one time and one time only, it will spring back a little, but not to the same shape it was before. That “one time” is represented by the torque. The horsepower represents you bending it a whole bunch of times but it doesn’t matter anymore if you already screwed it the first time you exceeded its bending stress.
Lost all your butter knives in some sort of “heat related” activity? How about we use a McD’s straw, then? Stand your straw on the table holding the bottom and push a bit on the top. It can support a reasonable load but if you push too hard it buckles* and it’ll never hold the same load it did before again. You can put a light load on it thousands of times and it doesn’t care, but the first time you exceed the limit, it’s pooched and the next thousand times you apply that load don’t matter anymore. *(Strictly speaking, column buckling isn’t the same but in a crude demo, this gets the point across…)
Of course, maintenance and manufacturing tolerances and whether the assembler tightened both of your con rod bolts before his coffee break all play a role in the variability of the final product and that is why there’s no magic torque number that bends rods and why binder gave a torque range based on his experience. The overly aggressive or inaccurate tune can also generate a force too high for the rods.
As for other modifications, I think it depends on what it does to your torque curve (but I’m open to others’ suggestions as I’m more thinking out loud now). If it increases your peak torque number beyond what your internals (most say the rods are the limiting factor) can handle, then you’re in trouble but often the supporting modification changes your torque curve in other ways. It can broaden it in such a way that gives you a higher maximum power, or it can add a bunch of torque in an area that was nowhere near the max torque before, so you’re seeing and feeling a benefit without exceeding the maximum stress that your rods can take.
Hope this helps.
Last edited by phreaktor; Mar 25, 2011 at 06:29 AM.
What about injectors/fuel pump?
+1 inj and fp.....with ur 8 k budget i would almost just build the block...wait another yr then get the turbo/supercharger kit u really want imo.....
what happened with my z, had it procharged for about 10k, then switched to turbonetics st for about 2k then booom! put a rod throgh a piston...detonation was my culprit...the tune from grd wasnt spot on i guess....both kits tuned with a utec at the time..
what happened with my z, had it procharged for about 10k, then switched to turbonetics st for about 2k then booom! put a rod throgh a piston...detonation was my culprit...the tune from grd wasnt spot on i guess....both kits tuned with a utec at the time..
Answering this properly could be a LONG post, but Dave Jackson has it about right I think. My only issue is be careful using "torque" in the explanation as there is a whole chain of events that create the "torque".
Just don't want to see people who don't really understand the internal chain of events that creates "torque" being mislead.
Tune: timing, the control of the "detonation" within the cylinder walls, etc.
Overload: to save the long explanation Ill use an example like trying to accelerate up a steep incline in a higher gear at lower speeds.
Part failure or fatigue/lack of maintenance: Given the years of age and use these cars and their components are accumulating...oil pumps, Tstats, and stuff like that are starting to go bad and things like this are vital in preventing catastrophic failure.
Each rod is rated individually for a certain load, they are not rated as a "set". People can get confused when it's "#3" that fails for example and wonder why that one?...it could be a number of different things or just shear happenstance that that particular rod and piston was at a certain point when the spark created the detonation inside the cylinder walls creating the exerted force onto that specific rod. If the spark is premature, poor, or the mixture of A/F was off because of an injector or a number of different things this would create what Dave Jackson is describing.
Also, over time the heat exerted on metals can cause them to become more brittle? No?
Im no engineer or anything either but this how I understand it and Im just thinking out loud as well to add to the discussion.
This could be a very informative thread for people new to he F/I world.
Phreak...I wouldn't say that's a "great" price but its good and do you really want to "cheap out" if the shop that gave you the number is really top notch and can give you the peace of mind going forward while driving it?
Just don't want to see people who don't really understand the internal chain of events that creates "torque" being mislead.
Tune: timing, the control of the "detonation" within the cylinder walls, etc.
Overload: to save the long explanation Ill use an example like trying to accelerate up a steep incline in a higher gear at lower speeds.
Part failure or fatigue/lack of maintenance: Given the years of age and use these cars and their components are accumulating...oil pumps, Tstats, and stuff like that are starting to go bad and things like this are vital in preventing catastrophic failure.
Each rod is rated individually for a certain load, they are not rated as a "set". People can get confused when it's "#3" that fails for example and wonder why that one?...it could be a number of different things or just shear happenstance that that particular rod and piston was at a certain point when the spark created the detonation inside the cylinder walls creating the exerted force onto that specific rod. If the spark is premature, poor, or the mixture of A/F was off because of an injector or a number of different things this would create what Dave Jackson is describing.
Also, over time the heat exerted on metals can cause them to become more brittle? No?
Im no engineer or anything either but this how I understand it and Im just thinking out loud as well to add to the discussion.
This could be a very informative thread for people new to he F/I world.
Phreak...I wouldn't say that's a "great" price but its good and do you really want to "cheap out" if the shop that gave you the number is really top notch and can give you the peace of mind going forward while driving it?
Last edited by Driven1; Mar 25, 2011 at 08:51 AM.
^^ +1, there are more causes of rod failure than wheel tq.
Detonation at 300wtq could exert the same forces on the rods as 600-1000wtq...(this is just a rough guess, could be worse but you get my point).
Just because you are tuned to 350wtq or 450wtq by no means tells you the rods are safe or not
Detonation at 300wtq could exert the same forces on the rods as 600-1000wtq...(this is just a rough guess, could be worse but you get my point).
Just because you are tuned to 350wtq or 450wtq by no means tells you the rods are safe or not
This thread is amazingly informative. Whenever you guys get the timing pull thread going can you post a link in here? Sorry OP not trying to thread jack or anything, just want to make sure I can find it when it comes out. Back to the FI lesson 
The lowest level answer is when peak cylinder pressure exerts a force strong enough to damage structural engine components that are under load. That peak can come from torque secondary to usual combustion or from a knock event, etc. Consider that you can blow a motor that isn't even turned on. Just fill it with water and roll the car downhill in gear.
Last edited by rcdash; Mar 25, 2011 at 09:40 AM.
It feels really good to contribute as I am pretty new to this so I've been taking in a lot of information but not always able to give.
Glad I was able to help!!
Answering this properly could be a LONG post, but Dave Jackson has it about right I think. My only issue is be careful using "torque" in the explanation as there is a whole chain of events that create the "torque".
Just don't want to see people who don't really understand the internal chain of events that creates "torque" being mislead.
Also, over time the heat exerted on metals can cause them to become more brittle? No?
Just don't want to see people who don't really understand the internal chain of events that creates "torque" being mislead.
Also, over time the heat exerted on metals can cause them to become more brittle? No?
I totally agree with the "whole chain of events" and I was trying to get that point across but it's good to re-emphasize it.
As for the heat exerted, I agree with you but the metals selected for applications like this are chosen based on their resistance to becoming brittle during heat cycling. So, it does happen, but to a much lesser extent than if they made the internals out of a much cheaper alloy.
^^ +1, there are more causes of rod failure than wheel tq.
Detonation at 300wtq could exert the same forces on the rods as 600-1000wtq...(this is just a rough guess, could be worse but you get my point).
Just because you are tuned to 350wtq or 450wtq by no means tells you the rods are safe or not
Detonation at 300wtq could exert the same forces on the rods as 600-1000wtq...(this is just a rough guess, could be worse but you get my point).
Just because you are tuned to 350wtq or 450wtq by no means tells you the rods are safe or not
I'm certainly learning something, too! I wish someone would sticky a "tuning for n00bs" thread similar to the FI one, here. It would be nice to better understand what parameters are adjusted successfully or even how each aftermarket ECS operates and what their key differences are.
The lowest level answer is when peak cylinder pressure exerts a force strong enough to damage structural engine components that are under load. That peak can come from torque secondary to usual combustion or from a knock event, etc. Consider that you can blow a motor that isn't even turned on. Just fill it with water and roll the car downhill in gear.
I see, thanks a lot... So it may or may not be safe to squeeze out more horsepower at a consistent boost level? I know it sounds dumb, but the added HP, say from a header back exhaust won't put more strain on the motor right? Is it more related to effective and efficient use of the current amount of boost?
hp is just trq multiplied over time, so hp is completely fictitious, thats why you see parts rated in trq
I have a huge noob question. What exactly blows motors with stock internals? Is it the HP or the amount of boost? For example, I have heard about guys blowing their stock internal motor at 450 HP, yet the Momentum kits are making 525 at the same or a little higher boost level. Sorry if this doesn't make sense, it's kind of hard to say what I'm asking..
Basically, are you safe making more horsepower at the same level of boost, say by adding supporting mods like headers, test pipes, tuning, fuel system ect.
Basically, are you safe making more horsepower at the same level of boost, say by adding supporting mods like headers, test pipes, tuning, fuel system ect.