omg building an engine tech!!!!
04-10-2011, 01:28 PM
#41
04-10-2011, 01:50 PM
#43
SUBBED.
From all the oil talks is there any downside to running a 20-50 race oil on a stock block TT setup?? I only drive the car when I am beating on it but just wondering about said bearing clearances and such.
I NEVER drive the car without letting it get up to temp so im not worried about slow start up times.
From all the oil talks is there any downside to running a 20-50 race oil on a stock block TT setup?? I only drive the car when I am beating on it but just wondering about said bearing clearances and such.
I NEVER drive the car without letting it get up to temp so im not worried about slow start up times.
It sounds like a major consideration when running turbo diesel oil or EOS additive (or anything else with high zinc & phosphorus content) on your stock block setup is whether you still have catalytic converters or not.
Last edited by RudeG_v2.0; 04-10-2011 at 02:13 PM.
04-10-2011, 02:11 PM
#44
rude makes a good point about cats, but i thought people had problems keeping cats with even lower power fi builds due to them burning out? The zddplus additive is also another good product. after 2000-2200 ppm there's diminishing returns on zinc and phosphorus however. Since most oils are in the 800-1100 gm eos will move that to 1600-1900 according to that chart. The zddplus will put normal oils in the 2600-2900 range nothing harmful with it, both are perfectly acceptable, and the zddplus will have more protection i would just compare the two price wise and get the cheaper one. The goal after all is 2000-2200, anything past that is icing, cant remember where i read it, was one of the magazine articles.
04-10-2011, 02:29 PM
#45
04-10-2011, 02:33 PM
#46
National Z Club President
iTrader: (15)
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: the coolest place on earth
Posts: 9,952
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
I have run test pipes since long before I went FI so its not a concern for me. The ZDD plus works out to be quite a bit cheaper. $18 a qt vs $10 a bottle
Just wanted to hear what some of the more knowledgeable guys knew/thought about it.
Just wanted to hear what some of the more knowledgeable guys knew/thought about it.
04-10-2011, 03:22 PM
#49
recommended change interval for racing oil is 2500-3000, cannot go over it like conventional detergent oils. Really the only downside is the change interval, non detergent oil doesn't suspend small soot particles like detergent does, so the oil is changed more often to keep the engine clean. we are talking about particles that are too small to be captured by the oil filter here.
On a side note i found the oil im going to be using
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...Number=2189762
1980 ppm zinc for 3.61 a quart plus shipping.
Ignore the question about increased zinc causing corrosion, zinc and phosphorus where initially added to motor oil as a anti-corrosion additive and later found to be an amazing anti-wear additive. They just dont provide as much protection after 2000-2200 ppm i cant remember the exact number.
Edit someone later on posted above 2k ppm can cause changes in the metallurgical property's in cams not sure how much truth there is to that.
On a side note i found the oil im going to be using
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...Number=2189762
1980 ppm zinc for 3.61 a quart plus shipping.
Ignore the question about increased zinc causing corrosion, zinc and phosphorus where initially added to motor oil as a anti-corrosion additive and later found to be an amazing anti-wear additive. They just dont provide as much protection after 2000-2200 ppm i cant remember the exact number.
Edit someone later on posted above 2k ppm can cause changes in the metallurgical property's in cams not sure how much truth there is to that.
Last edited by jerryd87; 04-10-2011 at 03:30 PM.
04-10-2011, 03:30 PM
#50
Some of you are hung up on diminishing levels of ZDDP in modern engine oils as though that's a bad thing. ZDDP is a very effective, relatively low-cost anti-wear additve. It's also as old as Moses. Don't assume there are no suitable anti-wear alternatives available for modern engine oils when the tested standards for many oil specs would put old school racer oils to absolute shame. Newer anti-wear additives are typically more expensive, but coupled with the massive improvement made in just the last decade in base stock formulations, have combined to make some of the best engine oils ever available to the automotive enthusiast.
Also, while there is ongoing speculation about ZDDP's effects on emissions equipment, high amounts of ZDDP are certain to increase ash. This increases piston deposits and especially sludge. Combined with the fact that some of you are discussing running a detergent-less oil, you would be doing your engine no favors with a high ZDDP detergent-less racing oil.
Just because a car makes a high specific output and it's not your daily doesn't make it a race car. Your oil has to cope with moisture in the crankcase when the engine cools and you go a week without driving it. Your oil must be within the design parameters of your hydraulically operated CVTS system. Your oils needs to inhibit sludge from forming because you won't be tearing down your engine every season or sooner. How likely is it that your oil needs to deal with nitro or leaded gas from blow-by, or will it mostly be unleaded? So, why would you trade an effective engine oil which keeps wear low, has a broad viscosity index, is shear resistant at all of your driving temps, removes ash and other deposits, and doesn't need to be changed every weekend for an oil designed for an actual race car? More to the point, what makes you think the oil you're currently using really isn't doing a good enough job?
Food for thought.
Will
Also, while there is ongoing speculation about ZDDP's effects on emissions equipment, high amounts of ZDDP are certain to increase ash. This increases piston deposits and especially sludge. Combined with the fact that some of you are discussing running a detergent-less oil, you would be doing your engine no favors with a high ZDDP detergent-less racing oil.
Just because a car makes a high specific output and it's not your daily doesn't make it a race car. Your oil has to cope with moisture in the crankcase when the engine cools and you go a week without driving it. Your oil must be within the design parameters of your hydraulically operated CVTS system. Your oils needs to inhibit sludge from forming because you won't be tearing down your engine every season or sooner. How likely is it that your oil needs to deal with nitro or leaded gas from blow-by, or will it mostly be unleaded? So, why would you trade an effective engine oil which keeps wear low, has a broad viscosity index, is shear resistant at all of your driving temps, removes ash and other deposits, and doesn't need to be changed every weekend for an oil designed for an actual race car? More to the point, what makes you think the oil you're currently using really isn't doing a good enough job?
Food for thought.
Will
04-10-2011, 04:34 PM
#51
Again, putting the "personal opinion only" disclaimer on this, I've got to say that Pennzoil is the only brand I've ever put in a car and noticed a difference and it wasn't good. This is in the past and pre-Nissan days for me. I know that this makes no sense but I found it to leak when I never had a leak before. Plus, the leak went away when I switched back. I also found it to burn more than any other oil and it smelled bad!
It was a weird difference that didn't make any sense but a friend of mine at the time said the same thing. "Pennzoil. It leaks, it burns, it stinks" is what he said.
Just my
as I know it's irrational...
It was a weird difference that didn't make any sense but a friend of mine at the time said the same thing. "Pennzoil. It leaks, it burns, it stinks" is what he said.
Just my
as I know it's irrational...
04-10-2011, 04:41 PM
#52
We are concerned about less zddp in engine oils because there are NO suitable replacements. Zddp is able to withstand sheering forces of 500,000 psi which to date nothing else can. Yes it does contribute to higher sludge in engines and hence it must be changed regularly 2500-3000 miles as has already been mentioned. Oil manufacturers themselves say past a certain point you need more zddp due to the high forces exhibited on bearings and if you actually read the bob is the oil guy stuff there are pages upon pages upon pages of information, i just found he site today.
By your standard what constitutes a "Race" engine? No cats? Check, the power levels people are seeing problems don't run cats. Alternate fuels? check lot of people are running methanol injection at higher power levels or the ars see c16/q16 at least part time. Frequent teardowns? Ask alberto or cass how many engines they have had. Cass is on number 5 and Alberto's third? I believe i saw something where he mentioned it was about to give up too. I already mentioned i will be checking bearings every 10k miles in another thread. Power output? Nascar engines make 2.514 hp per cubic inch. People seem to be having trouble past 550 hp or 2.575 hp per cubic inch. I think thats another check. So whats the difference, because ours are run on the street? A oil made to withstand the forces of a 300hp engine cannot be asked to do the same at double the power level ther0'es a reason high output engines run high zddp oils to this day, there is no alternative yet.
I assure you if the oil is able to squeeze through a .0026 gap in bearings it will have zero problems moving through the holes that are .125-.250 inchs in diameter for oil galleys and variable valve systems especially since other platforms are using these oils with no problems. Don't see any 600+ hp mivec engines having problems with these oils do you?
Don't assume since its as old as moses there is something newer and better out there. Do some research on engines in the 90's and look at the laundry list of failures in flat tappet motors due to oil's taking zinc out. Those cams are the only thing that is going to come close to the pressures seen on our bearings at higher power levels. Please do go back and read all my post's, look at the nascar bearings after only 500 miles at a lesser power level, because yes each bearing is receiving less power then that in a 550 hp vq35de.
To answer your question why is it thought the oils used in regular engines arn't good enough? The manufacturers say so, blackstone labs confirm via oil analysis that the higher hp engines are seeing significant less wear with more zinc. Cam failures in the 90's when zinc was reduced. Other platforms having similar problems with spun bearings using standard motor oils, that disappeared when higher zinc oils became widely used in that platform.
Again its not this anti wear additive vs that, its how much sheering pressure does this one withstand vs that one. So far zddp is still the way to go, racing oils nowadays have advanced just like conventional oils and racing oil puts them to shame.
"Edit:" Almost forgot if you don't use a high zinc oil or a zinc additive with a flat tappet cam it will void your warranty. Keep going back to this because the pressures at high power levels like this are similar to what flat tappet cams experience. When i bought my lunati voodoo cam it cam with a big ol card that said. "Warning: break in procedure for this cam requires the use of an oil with a zinc/phosphorus content of at least 1700 ppm or the use of general motors EOS lubricant part #dont remember. After this every oil change should be done with an oil that contains at least 1300 ppm zinc/phosphorus or a half bottle of general motors EOS lubricant part #still dont remember. Failure to do so voids and and all warranty associated with this product." It was the old part number that starts with a 1 but its the same thing as the new stuff just a different bottle.
By your standard what constitutes a "Race" engine? No cats? Check, the power levels people are seeing problems don't run cats. Alternate fuels? check lot of people are running methanol injection at higher power levels or the ars see c16/q16 at least part time. Frequent teardowns? Ask alberto or cass how many engines they have had. Cass is on number 5 and Alberto's third? I believe i saw something where he mentioned it was about to give up too. I already mentioned i will be checking bearings every 10k miles in another thread. Power output? Nascar engines make 2.514 hp per cubic inch. People seem to be having trouble past 550 hp or 2.575 hp per cubic inch. I think thats another check. So whats the difference, because ours are run on the street? A oil made to withstand the forces of a 300hp engine cannot be asked to do the same at double the power level ther0'es a reason high output engines run high zddp oils to this day, there is no alternative yet.
I assure you if the oil is able to squeeze through a .0026 gap in bearings it will have zero problems moving through the holes that are .125-.250 inchs in diameter for oil galleys and variable valve systems especially since other platforms are using these oils with no problems. Don't see any 600+ hp mivec engines having problems with these oils do you?
Don't assume since its as old as moses there is something newer and better out there. Do some research on engines in the 90's and look at the laundry list of failures in flat tappet motors due to oil's taking zinc out. Those cams are the only thing that is going to come close to the pressures seen on our bearings at higher power levels. Please do go back and read all my post's, look at the nascar bearings after only 500 miles at a lesser power level, because yes each bearing is receiving less power then that in a 550 hp vq35de.
To answer your question why is it thought the oils used in regular engines arn't good enough? The manufacturers say so, blackstone labs confirm via oil analysis that the higher hp engines are seeing significant less wear with more zinc. Cam failures in the 90's when zinc was reduced. Other platforms having similar problems with spun bearings using standard motor oils, that disappeared when higher zinc oils became widely used in that platform.
Again its not this anti wear additive vs that, its how much sheering pressure does this one withstand vs that one. So far zddp is still the way to go, racing oils nowadays have advanced just like conventional oils and racing oil puts them to shame.
"Edit:" Almost forgot if you don't use a high zinc oil or a zinc additive with a flat tappet cam it will void your warranty. Keep going back to this because the pressures at high power levels like this are similar to what flat tappet cams experience. When i bought my lunati voodoo cam it cam with a big ol card that said. "Warning: break in procedure for this cam requires the use of an oil with a zinc/phosphorus content of at least 1700 ppm or the use of general motors EOS lubricant part #dont remember. After this every oil change should be done with an oil that contains at least 1300 ppm zinc/phosphorus or a half bottle of general motors EOS lubricant part #still dont remember. Failure to do so voids and and all warranty associated with this product." It was the old part number that starts with a 1 but its the same thing as the new stuff just a different bottle.
Last edited by jerryd87; 04-10-2011 at 04:55 PM.
04-10-2011, 04:46 PM
#53
Leaks im only worried about if they are significant, it its a couple drops a day no big deal i check the oil often after my incident in my blazer.................. Burning i would be a bit more concerned about and i will have to see, again it will depend on what they have local at what price, im not going to spend 10 bucks a quart on a very similar oil, the pennzoil looks very good on paper. Smell..............hell its a high performance car i don't care. I'm going to be running a fuel swirl pot with 2x bosch pumps out of it right behind the driver seat where the sub box sits if you have the option lol. Hopefully the Teflon hose eliminates most of that smell..........
Again, putting the "personal opinion only" disclaimer on this, I've got to say that Pennzoil is the only brand I've ever put in a car and noticed a difference and it wasn't good. This is in the past and pre-Nissan days for me. I know that this makes no sense but I found it to leak when I never had a leak before. Plus, the leak went away when I switched back. I also found it to burn more than any other oil and it smelled bad!
It was a weird difference that didn't make any sense but a friend of mine at the time said the same thing. "Pennzoil. It leaks, it burns, it stinks" is what he said.
Just my as I know it's irrational...
It was a weird difference that didn't make any sense but a friend of mine at the time said the same thing. "Pennzoil. It leaks, it burns, it stinks" is what he said.
Just my
as I know it's irrational...
04-10-2011, 06:55 PM
#55
Well, I don't think I'm going to change your mind, but for all the spectators, here's some stuff to consider:
Huh? There's a number of sulferized olefins, metal dithiocarbamates like Antimony DTC, borate ester compounds and more which have been shown as suitable replacements. ZDDP isn't some magical additive that possess supernatural chemical properties unable to be duplicated by any other compound. It's simply an old, proven and relatively cheap additive. Hence, it's popular. But not irreplaceable by any means.
Where did you here this? ZDDP is considered a moderate EP additive- there are a number of more robust EP compounds out there. Good old MoS2 or MoTDC come to mind.
Where did you come up with this interval for a detergent-less oil in the VQ? You do understand that without a detergent, the oil will not carry contaminates through the filter as the engine was designed, right?
Really? At what point do the oil manufacturers say you need more ZDDP, and which manufacturers say this? I have worked with some good chemists and no one ever discussed a point at which more ZDDP is required in the face of all the other options modern engine oils have at their disposal.
Well, that explains it. I would question anything you get from a web forum where anyone can post anything about everything they want.
Is this a trick question? A race engine is an engine built to support racing in race car. It sounds like you think because an engine makes lots of power and runs without cats it's a race engine, or just like one. Feel free to call IES and ask them for a full run-down on why this assumption is false.
What? You think the general crop of engine oils are made for 300hp engines? Engine oil isn't made for particular engines *unless* it's a racing engine. As for double the power level, how about the factory recommended fill for a 600hp Viper? Or maybe the Veyron, which uses Castrol Edge? Are you at all familiar with any of the specification tests these oils go through?
Viscosity is measured as resistance in flow, not the ability to flow. Clearances aren't the impetus in this instance, the viscosity of the fluid is. MIVEC is a straw man; we're talking VQ. Do you know what the specified max viscosity for proper operation of the CVTC is? I'll give you a hint: when Nismo released their RS-C, they specified a 5W-30 for their race engine.
I don't assume there's something better, I know there are are better alternatives spec'd by Nissan for this engine. Even when the whole ester debate came up for their a-c coatings, their own white paper found a TMP to be superior to increased ZDDP for reduced wear and friction.
Red Herring. The oil on the shelf at your local Wal-Mart today is almost nothing like what was around 20 years ago. The correlation you draw isn't evidence against what a VQ owner has at their disposal today for engine oils.
This is just ridiculous. Are you aware of the fundamentally different lubrication dynamics between hydrodynamic operation and boundary? Not to mention the incredibly different application of force seen across two vastly different surface areas with totally different mechanics.
You mean the picture of a totally different engine operated at WOT under a racing environment for many hours straight? I'm sure it's just like how most of the boosted V6's here are.
I'd love to see all the UOA's from boosted VQ's that show a reduction in wear with higher ZDDP. I think you should look around here for some. I happen to have seen quite a few myself, actually, and have seen high ZDDP race oils like Motul 300V with worse UOA results than Rotella T6 in the same engine, high ZDDP oils like Torco worse than M1 0W-40, etc...
Good to know that spun bearing problems have disappeared as long as the owners use high ZDDP racing oils, because I seem to recall spun bearings as being the result of a number of factors aside from engine oil (although oil is such an easy culprit) and that they are still occurring.
Well, I already touched on the fact that ZDDP isn't the top dog of EP additves, but don't take my word for it. "Lubricant Additives" by Rudnick might shed some light on this for you. I used my SAE discount, but I think there are pdf versions online. You might also be surprised to learn that the additives are only a small percentage of engine oil composition, and as I alluded to earlier, higher ZDDP doesn't mean a better performing oil. It is entirely possible, and for most VQ owners it is probable, that they will have higher wear numbers with a racing oil in their VQ engine as opposed to a good modern SN approved synthetic.
BTW, flat tappet OHV cam wear is not the same as DOHC wear simply because the cam acts on a bucket shim. I know it kinda looks like it should be, but it's not. While the wiping surface may be similar in configuration, the loads on the OHV engine are higher. This has been recorded in a number of SAE papers, especially as decreasing engine friction continues to be paramount.
It's not incorrect to pay attention to ZDDP levels. It is a mistake to think high ZDDP = better oil for my engine. Engine lubrication isn't so simple as this, and most, if not all, of the VQ owners on this board will be doing themselves a disservice by using high ZDDP detergent-less oils. I cannot even believe it's being suggested for these engines.
Will
Is this a trick question? A race engine is an engine built to support racing in race car. It sounds like you think because an engine makes lots of power and runs without cats it's a race engine, or just like one. Feel free to call IES and ask them for a full run-down on why this assumption is false.
I assure you if the oil is able to squeeze through a .0026 gap in bearings it will have zero problems moving through the holes that are .125-.250 inchs in diameter for oil galleys and variable valve systems especially since other platforms are using these oils with no problems. Don't see any 600+ hp mivec engines having problems with these oils do you?
When i bought my lunati voodoo cam it cam with a big ol card that said. "Warning: break in procedure for this cam requires the use of an oil with a zinc/phosphorus content of at least 1700 ppm or the use of general motors EOS lubricant part #dont remember. After this every oil change should be done with an oil that contains at least 1300 ppm zinc/phosphorus or a half bottle of general motors EOS lubricant part #still dont remember.
It's not incorrect to pay attention to ZDDP levels. It is a mistake to think high ZDDP = better oil for my engine. Engine lubrication isn't so simple as this, and most, if not all, of the VQ owners on this board will be doing themselves a disservice by using high ZDDP detergent-less oils. I cannot even believe it's being suggested for these engines.
Will
04-10-2011, 07:53 PM
#57
One zddp does resist 500,000 psi of pressure according to oil manufacturers. Two i dint say read the forums i said read the website and what the creator of it has posted. Since he is an actual lubricants chemist im going to take his word over yours, sorry i was trying to keep this thread civil and informative however you seem damn determined to undermine that. The Oil change interval was the standard for non detergent oils, they dint always have detergent oils and even if the oil itself dosnt absorb the particles its still under pressure and the particles will flow. Oil dosnt mix with water but a pressure washer will damn sure blast it out of my driveway. Lets ask any oil company ill email several right now and post there responses as soon as i have internet access since you wont take my word on previous conversations. Yes a damn vq35 pushing 550+ hp is a race engine i dont give a damn what you say as fp would say if you think its not your fooling yourself. It may not be in a track car but it damn sure is under the same stresses as a race engine, again mr troll what is your classification of a race engine?
The viper is a v10 engine, the veyron is a v16 engine both have a significant number of extra bearings compared to the vq35 that help spread out the load. The viper only makes 60 hp per cylinder, the veyron makes 61.6875 per cylinder, the vq35 at 550 hp is at 91.67 hp per cylinder 50% more power aka pressure being applied per bearing.
How about you read the entire thread, realize your a fool because this thread is on engines in general and is not specific to the vq35 and troll somewhere else. Its quite obvious that your a internet mechanic is just looking to cause trouble in what is supposed to be an informative thread. Read again i compare flat tappet cams not to the cams in our engines but the bearings because a flat tappet cam is the only thing that will approach the pressure of the main and rod bearings at the power levels we are speaking about. Do some research not just what you can google in a couple quick minutes then build some engines. Ive already built a couple and never had a spun bearing. There are other reasons for a spun bearing and ive spoken and asked questions about them. It could be from the head lifting super heating the coolant causing the engine to overheat which is why i have made mention of a1 head studs that are designed not to stretch like arp l19s are. However until we begin to change things we wont know what is causing the failures. Obviously you would be perfectly happy keeping things exactly how they are now and people continuously destroying engines.
Stay the **** out of my thread we had good things going until you showed up. If any mod is looking can you please delete resolutes posts in the interest of keeping this thread informative? Should you do so delete this one as well.
The viper is a v10 engine, the veyron is a v16 engine both have a significant number of extra bearings compared to the vq35 that help spread out the load. The viper only makes 60 hp per cylinder, the veyron makes 61.6875 per cylinder, the vq35 at 550 hp is at 91.67 hp per cylinder 50% more power aka pressure being applied per bearing.
How about you read the entire thread, realize your a fool because this thread is on engines in general and is not specific to the vq35 and troll somewhere else. Its quite obvious that your a internet mechanic is just looking to cause trouble in what is supposed to be an informative thread. Read again i compare flat tappet cams not to the cams in our engines but the bearings because a flat tappet cam is the only thing that will approach the pressure of the main and rod bearings at the power levels we are speaking about. Do some research not just what you can google in a couple quick minutes then build some engines. Ive already built a couple and never had a spun bearing. There are other reasons for a spun bearing and ive spoken and asked questions about them. It could be from the head lifting super heating the coolant causing the engine to overheat which is why i have made mention of a1 head studs that are designed not to stretch like arp l19s are. However until we begin to change things we wont know what is causing the failures. Obviously you would be perfectly happy keeping things exactly how they are now and people continuously destroying engines.
Stay the **** out of my thread we had good things going until you showed up. If any mod is looking can you please delete resolutes posts in the interest of keeping this thread informative? Should you do so delete this one as well.
04-10-2011, 08:12 PM
#58
Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Norfolk, VA
Posts: 17
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
KAY I have a question. I'm pretty sure I already know the answer.. But I figured I'd ask to confirm. I have an 05 DE and I started a turbo build. Next on the parts list is exhaust/test pipes. A friend of mine informed me that a friend of his was selling an HKS Hi-Power off of his G35 for 500 dollars with 3' test pipes. Said teh exhaust was on the car for >6 months. Will it fit my 350?
04-10-2011, 08:38 PM
#59
One zddp does resist 500,000 psi of pressure according to oil manufacturers. Two i dint say read the forums i said read the website and what the creator of it has posted. Since he is an actual lubricants chemist im going to take his word over yours, sorry i was trying to keep this thread civil and informative however you seem damn determined to undermine that. The Oil change interval was the standard for non detergent oils, they dint always have detergent oils and even if the oil itself dosnt absorb the particles its still under pressure and the particles will flow. Oil dosnt mix with water but a pressure washer will damn sure blast it out of my driveway. Lets ask any oil company ill email several right now and post there responses as soon as i have internet access since you wont take my word on previous conversations. Yes a damn vq35 pushing 550+ hp is a race engine i dont give a damn what you say as fp would say if you think its not your fooling yourself. It may not be in a track car but it damn sure is under the same stresses as a race engine, again mr troll what is your classification of a race engine?
The viper is a v10 engine, the veyron is a v16 engine both have a significant number of extra bearings compared to the vq35 that help spread out the load. The viper only makes 60 hp per cylinder, the veyron makes 61.6875 per cylinder, the vq35 at 550 hp is at 91.67 hp per cylinder 50% more power aka pressure being applied per bearing.
How about you read the entire thread, realize your a fool because this thread is on engines in general and is not specific to the vq35 and troll somewhere else. Its quite obvious that your a internet mechanic is just looking to cause trouble in what is supposed to be an informative thread. Read again i compare flat tappet cams not to the cams in our engines but the bearings because a flat tappet cam is the only thing that will approach the pressure of the main and rod bearings at the power levels we are speaking about. Do some research not just what you can google in a couple quick minutes then build some engines. Ive already built a couple and never had a spun bearing. There are other reasons for a spun bearing and ive spoken and asked questions about them. It could be from the head lifting super heating the coolant causing the engine to overheat which is why i have made mention of a1 head studs that are designed not to stretch like arp l19s are. However until we begin to change things we wont know what is causing the failures. Obviously you would be perfectly happy keeping things exactly how they are now and people continuously destroying engines.
Stay the **** out of my thread we had good things going until you showed up. If any mod is looking can you please delete resolutes posts in the interest of keeping this thread informative? Should you do so delete this one as well.
The viper is a v10 engine, the veyron is a v16 engine both have a significant number of extra bearings compared to the vq35 that help spread out the load. The viper only makes 60 hp per cylinder, the veyron makes 61.6875 per cylinder, the vq35 at 550 hp is at 91.67 hp per cylinder 50% more power aka pressure being applied per bearing.
How about you read the entire thread, realize your a fool because this thread is on engines in general and is not specific to the vq35 and troll somewhere else. Its quite obvious that your a internet mechanic is just looking to cause trouble in what is supposed to be an informative thread. Read again i compare flat tappet cams not to the cams in our engines but the bearings because a flat tappet cam is the only thing that will approach the pressure of the main and rod bearings at the power levels we are speaking about. Do some research not just what you can google in a couple quick minutes then build some engines. Ive already built a couple and never had a spun bearing. There are other reasons for a spun bearing and ive spoken and asked questions about them. It could be from the head lifting super heating the coolant causing the engine to overheat which is why i have made mention of a1 head studs that are designed not to stretch like arp l19s are. However until we begin to change things we wont know what is causing the failures. Obviously you would be perfectly happy keeping things exactly how they are now and people continuously destroying engines.
Stay the **** out of my thread we had good things going until you showed up. If any mod is looking can you please delete resolutes posts in the interest of keeping this thread informative? Should you do so delete this one as well.
So, I'll keep this next response brief. Back when oils had no detergents they also had poor chemistry compared to what is available today. In fact, the reason OEM's developed a 3k mile interval was primarily because of oxidation, something modern oils resist to a much higher degree. Check it out, page 169 in the Automotive Lubricants Reference Book. It's a definitive source, and all of us internet mechanics have a copy.
Engine oil detergent is responsible for suspending soot and other contaminates in the oil so that they are carried through the filter and eventually out with the oil change. A non-detergent oil does not effectively suspend and carry these contaminates. So, when a non-detergent oil is drained, how much of the soot, ash, and other contaminates which settle in the pan are drained with the oil? Just think about that before coming up with a change interval based on what people came up with in the 50's based primarily on oil oxidation.
Yes, ZDDP is great stuff. We've acknowledged it. But, you said nothing else is a suitable replacement. This is bogus. As I have said, it's a proven, good, and cheap AW additive, but it is not irreplaceable, and there are other compounds which are superior for use in modern engine oils which must meet a variety of demanding conditions none of the oils 20 years ago would have been able to touch. Again, having a healthy dose of ZDDP is great, but high ZDDP does not mean great oil. There are way too many other factors to consider.
By the way, load is a function of force, which is measured about the crankshaft as torque, not hp. So figure the torque per rod at a given rpm and you'll have an actual idea of load. And modern engine oils handle the load of those engines just fine. In fact, if you peruse some of the modern standards, you might be impressed to know that the Sequence VE Test to meet SN requires a 288 hour hard run in 72 cycles with forced blow-by to make things worse. Then a tear down to evaluate oil passageway and pan sludge and varnish, piston skirt varnish, cam lobe wear, and the rings is conducted. The pass/fail criteria is pretty stiff. Even so, MB and Porsche specs are also incredibly hard with their own specs. Porsche has a 203 hour engine test (check out the test rig: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fv53RbvgfGc ) which consists of 5 times the simulation of 1 hour flat-out sessions around the Nurburgring in addition to a variety of hard driving test cycles. Then the engine is stripped down and bearing wear and cleanliness, piston skirt varnish and crown deposits, cam wear, and valve train wear are measured. I guess when they made the 612hp GT2 Rs, someone should have told them the modern M1 oil they recommend was no good and that such an engine really needs a detergent-free 2000ppm ZDDP engine oil.
Also, aftermarket additives are an extra burden for the detergent chemistry of modern oils, whose make-up is not as simple as "more ZDDP is better", so you might not want to bulk-up your oil with aftermarket zinc products. Saturating the detergents is never a good thing.
Will (aka Troll)
04-10-2011, 09:16 PM
#60
Ok I appologize we are at a bit of a misundersttanding. One I'm not saying that non detergent oils are better then detergent. However some of the soot and ash will drain out with the oil, not as much as a detergent oil but still some. Frequent oil changes will help to keep as much out as posssible. I would prefer a detergent oil but most racing oils are non detergent. I am also not supporting going and adding a ton of crap to oil, I recommend going with a racing oil with it added in. However if a person is going to use a low zinc oil it is going to need a addative. I'm not saying zddp is the end all be all, however CURRENNTLY it is the best thing on the market if it wasn't then pros would be using something different however if you loook at the contents of race oil they are not. If you want to discuss torque then. The veyron would loose some of the power per rod, the viper would stay the same, and the vq would loose a little bit as well. I would rather not get into mentions of mobile one, some fine automobiles use it but I believe the don't have problems due to engineering, the oil itself I find is crap. Work at a cadillac dealership like I did where the only thing authorized is mobile 1 or gm won't warrenty anything. Spun bearings everywhere, we replaced about 40-50 engines in a year at a deallership that only sold about 100 cadillacs in a year, across all the engines even the lq in the escallade. Btw working at a chevy dealership the year previous to cadillac we dint have a single lq engine in for spun bearings only difference is mobile 1 synthetic 5w30 vs bulk regular 5w30 in the chevys. I hate mobile one won't let it touch any of my cars after that sorry its a little biased. Again sorry for the troll comments it appeared to be arguing just to argue. I'm a little pissed because a c@ompany charged me twice for a new laptop screen when I only ordered and got one, plus I'm trying not to sleep tonight due to flying out soon. I also appologize for misspelled words I'm at dinner with my wife currenntly on my phone