jesseenglish

BTW, I've said this all before several times, just not in its own thread.

Maybe if TS was more open about what they are able to do to the ECU I would have a different opinion. Secrecy does not breed confidence IMO.

12SecZ

Dear Jesse,

The entire first page is dedicated to people blaming ATI. The last thing we needed was another one. Why not just join one of those threads?

You may not care about TS's sales but I am sure they do.

It would really look better if you stopped contridicting yourself though.

First you will never go to the track, then you were gonna.

Then you are saying the ECU flash is bad, then you are not.

Then we were hounding you now you new we were not?

Look, have a nice evening. You can't fight ATI's battles too many people are unhappy with them. Especially with misinformation and contridictions so why start another even more controversial thread tossing names around?

12SecZ

"Maybe if TS was more open about what they are able to do to the ECU I would have a different opinion. Secrecy does not breed confidence IMO."

I asked them this when I was there, they signed non disclosures on company and trade secrets.

Geez, just read your own sig for the answer to this. Have you been drinking?

jesseenglish

Never said it won't work, just that it's not the best option and because of it's inability to adapt, it could be a problem.

Stock Z's can run safely at stoich, because they are NA, so NB sensors work fine. Cars with FI from the factory have ways of accounting for NB O2 sensor inaccuracies. Ours doesn't.

You're welcome

Well obviously that was before we found out that peoples cars like yours are detonating and we found out what the real timing settings were. Now we know better.

Yeah, that was a late night theoretical discussion and obviously I was dead wrong. I never claimed that was the cause, just openly musing about the implications of different pressures between outside and inside the car.

If you look at how a PCV system is designed, you'll notice that it operates from a vacuum. This is nothing new. Yes the PCV valve will vent excess pressures, but by relying on venting of gasses through excess pressure you're relying on blowby gasses to clean out the crankcase. There is a reason why modern vehicles are designed so the PCV system is plumbed through the intake. That's so it can suck the nasty crap out of your engine and burn it up. This helps keep the engine clear of potentially damaging acids that are byproducts of combustion and helps the environment at the same time.

Yeah, I don't really care whether you listen to me or not. You've got your mind made up about things. I'm not gonna change your mind about anything. I just posted this because I got a couple people asking me questions about it, so I figured I'd post my opinions publicly again and maybe get some real feedback on it from people who would know better than I.

From now on I'll make my posts asking questions. Will this make you happy? How can I satisfy you EJ. You seem to think that I get some sort of ego boost out of posting things here. My only motive is to help others with some info I might have. You obviously don't need anyones help, so how about this EJ. Fix your Procharger

Taking posts and situations out of context doesn't disprove my original post, so you are off-topic.

Can someone with a small signature put another perspective on this topic? Is it safe to allow our ECU without the correct sensors to have total control of A/F and timing on an FI engine? Hey that's a question, now someone who has something to relevant to add say something please.

MY350Z.COM

iTrader: (2)

play nice little girlies.

jesseenglish

LOL, good one no not drinking. I've signed plenty of NDA's in my life, but I don't need TS to disclose any technical data, just tell me how the ECU isn't blind to changing conditions. I don't need any info on the ECU itself, just the theory behind it.

hfm

iTrader: (1)

Guys, not my place to post but, I have to say, you people, Jesse, Max are the experts. You guys buy the stuff, you research it and you know what's going on. Us lay people read this stuff and make decisions based upon what you say.

So, do us a favor, keep arguing, keep making your points and keep educating us but, stop attacking each other, it doesn't help your opinion nor does it clarify the subject matter.

And, thanks for posting, whatever your opinion maybe.

jesseenglish

Good question, I'm not sure, but I believe the butterfly valve pivots in the center. If that's the case it would have equal pressure on both sides and should still close under pressure.

spazpilot

iTrader: (2)

quote:

Is it safe to allow our ECU without the correct sensors to have total control of A/F and timing on an FI engine? Hey that's a question, now someone who has something to relevant to add say something please.


Yes. The reason I say this is that on my turbo eclipse I used the HKS VPC to remove the mass/map sensor for more airflow and even the stock one wouldn't help in tuning if the bypass valve failed. The only reason it could take the pain is because its a block build for FI. There is not protection on any car that i know Turbo/N/A that protects from overboost. There are just better build blocks. Jess your making to big of a deal out of this. Our cars will never be 100% safe unless we leave it stock. I'd say TS did a great job with what they had to deal with. also I wouldn't release info on the reprogram except that it works if I was them. What would you consider correct sensors? A unit that reads boost, ok then what if there isn't enough fuel for correction it will run lean. You think if it can continue to retard timing that will help, only to a certain point. the J&S can only do so much also. everything is limited. I know you might say apples and oranges again but boost is boost. There is not a safety system that you are looking for your setup is just as good as TS, not better. You know what they say pinions are like a$$ holes, everyone has one

Z1 Performance

iTrader: (564)

.I read the entire linked thread..and all but 1 post mention this..and gave no reason why.

I will be trying the E Manage next week on my car. So far I have not found a car it did not work on, and I feel the Z will be no exception.

As for the reflash, I understand the nature of what TS does. however, I see no reason why they cannot give us a bit of insight into what parameters they can control, within what ranges, as well as bit of insight into how and why the stock ecu does what it does. I don't think they need be concerned with people copying them....I mean, I know (personally) several firms using the Techtom software for a variety of cars (Subaru, Mitsubishi) and all re quite willing to share what they have found so far about various stock ecu parameters. Knowledge improves the breed.

I think a reflash can be a very powerful, seamless package in the right hands. We have actually been discussing buying the program from TS to be an East Coast dealer, but before doing so, I would like some hard and fast info as to what exactly it can and cannot do, and within what margins I have to work with.

As for wideband vs. narrowband, everyone is partially correct. NB in and of themselves are unreliable as a be all and end all means of tuning. However, this does not mean they are totally inaccurate either. This is why I have begged you guys to get a data logger and at least see where your FI cars are running in relation to how the stock car runs. The whole idea behind tuning, especially with a reflash or with a piggyback, is to make the stock ecu think it is running stock parts. Without a datalogger, you are going blind. Now, correlate said logs of tps, fuel trim, 02 voltage, ignition timing, to something like EGT, and we start to have some very useful information. Couple that to a wideband that can log against rpm (ala FJO, albeit its sensor is not the best out there, it is still loads better than a NB sensor), and we are really getting somewhere. I just don’t see anyone here doing such things, and that’s what I find frustrating...no one seems to want to do the work to find out how to make the car run its best. And on the flipside, the one source out there that is familiar with the ecu code wont tell us how it is they manipulate the variables they manipulate.

For example: when they richen the car up, how are they doing this? Can they actually increase IPW, or are they altering MAF signal. When they adjust timing, are they able to literally advance and or retard timing, or are they simply causing timing changes as a result of the fuel changes they make. On a stock car, where have they seen 02 voltage range through the rev range? how does this compare to what their results are after a flash? This is information that is honestly general enough for lots of us to understand, yet gives us some good info on what exactly the reflash for this car accomplishes. When the Xede comes to fruition you will see what I mean about sharing of knowledge. As much as Shiv and I have disagreed in the past about his findings vs. mine, he always shares loads of info.....loads of technical info, to show you how and why his latest ecu widget does what it does and why.

Not having a MAP sensor at the point many people are at may or may not be a problem. I need to give it more thought

jesseenglish

I don't know of any reason why the Emanage won't work and have never seen any proof that it won't. I believe it's just another internet rumor.

I always assumed that TS is adjusting pulse width to richen the car up. Seems like a roundabout way to do it by altering the MAF signal and never even considered this as a way they would do that, but I suppose it's possible.

The main question I would have for TS is regarding the timing. I have logged data from another user that shows timing advanced as high as 35+ degrees at around 10% throttle opening. How is the timing adjusted during closed loop operation. I understand the engine isn't on boost at 10% throttle, but where do they start their timing adjustment and where do they stop. I'm sure we'll never get that kind of data, but it would help us understand things better. Mainly because with the unpredictable timing advance during closed loop it makes it more difficult to know when and how much timing to retard with a box like the J&S.

I look forward to the Xede. I hope that it is everything it's been advertised as.

elektrik_juggernaut

What i know about the E-manage is that i was discouraged from using it by my tuner.....he told me on the cars that he installed it on, it would say that some changes were made, but they actually weren't when double-checked by another source......i forget now if it was timing or fuel.....but one of these it was saying that it was cutting back on, when it really wasn't.......when you do yours, please let us know if your external data sources tell you that everything's as its supposed to be........there could have been revisions since the bugs, and i'd like to see if this is indeed an option


I will.......all in due time........you see, if there's one thing i've learned from this forum, it's to do my own research

I'm not gonna jump on the first thing to come out........made that mistake once already with the Procharger.........there's two good options out right now(J&S and TS).......i'm not about to waste my breath tearing down either one of them, because they both seem to be proven as successful............i haven't heard anything negative about either from people that have them..........if it ain't broke, don't fix it.......so you don't like the TS.......that's fine, don't get it..........there are three other pending options that i can think of right now.......i'd like to wait and see how they do........its not really important to me who says what about whether they think it will work or not.......i'm interested in results

you say the lack of adaptive learning in the TS ECM limits its ability with respect to FI........the worst scenario i can think of is that it may run rich when the engine is revving high with no load on the engine........i think my engine can stand up to running rich for a second or two

jesseenglish

The worst scenario I can think of besides the bad tank of gas, is a car running lean because it was dyno tuned in on a hot humid day and then driven during the winter where the air is much denser and the MAF not being able to tell the difference. Maybe I'm predicting a worst case scenario that is within the limits of the stock MAF to sense and the ECU to adapt to.

Whatever, I guess this is all just an exercise in futility until someone spills the beans on what TS is doing.

Jim Jones

I didn't read the encyclopedia britannica above, so i dont know what you are all fighting about. and i dont have an FI car so maybe i have no right to post here (that never stopped me before LOL)

All I can say is I trust Tadashi at TS. the ECU flash did wonders for my NA car.

evilz

hey has anyone gotten the techno square reflash without getting injectors?....basically i have a procharged z and i was wondering if i can run it with the ati FMU and reflash it to retard the timing a lil without the injectors?.....would this be stupid?........and wth does the J&S do?....if thats what the J&S does should i just get that?.....help im a FI noober and the ATI SC went with is scaring the **** outta me after reading all these complaints.....i dont push my car hard but i would like to have peace of mind ...so im gonna suck it up and buy either the J&S or the reflash...but i cant afford those damn overpriced injectors...are there any other safety options besides the reflash and J&S out there that i can buy at a more economical price?

S12 driver

The TS injectors are 380cc, so I think if you can find some 380cc injectors that fits (maybe some RC injectors), the reflash would work.

12SecZ

Henry,

A well respected tuner in Sacramento California put GReddy EManage on several 350Z's (as in half a dozen or more.)

He then tuned them and it said they had (X) for fuel. Then a month later one came in for another dyno and the Greddy changes that he had recorded as having being made on the Wideband had not really been made. Either they were negated or as he thinks, it never really changed them! It just said it did!

So he called *all* the Z's back and they all had the same results.

Isn't that odd?

I was ready to pay 350 for one and 300 for tuning and install and he wouldn't let me. He wouldn't take my money! Heck I had him looking at AEM's FCON for a grand! I wanted a good FMU! Even the FCON won't work (last I checked.) TS does. 3k miles and still running strong and hard. So I don't question it like others. I use too trust me, check the archives, But they made a believer out of me. I guess the difference with me is I don't care how it works, I don't plan on writing a book about it. I just know it works, that's enough for me. Sort of like Richard said. Hey it works!

Henry of Motorsports Dynamics is a stand up guy that is 4 weeks booked in advance year round. So I believed him, as did EJ.

However, it may of been fixed, this was several months ago and we all are learning together. I would like to think it has changed or that it works I really would. Because our cars need it! We need ECU control more than any other car I have ever owned!

I am all for sharing info, I think i have proven that by now but I have nothing to share. Except my current setup works good, I do not have any issues or fear of being lean or having the wrong timing. Some of the stock injectors only flowed 280cc's I think that is too little. The next step up is 440, I think that is too much, so I got 380's. The stock pump flows 210, I wanted 280. I heard it was a good combo from 4 different Engineers. Again, I don't know why, I just know it does. More fuel is good. And no a fuel pump straight swap DOES NOT require a reflash. I asked.

Adam,

You seem like a squared away intelligent man to me. Why don't you call Mike at AA? He has Techtom and is close to you (MD) maybe he can answer some questions? He is flashing his car and his customers and he is also removing his FMU and going to larger injectors. He has installed more ATI Kits than any other shop I know. He has tracked his Procharged Z into the ground.
So let's ask him why he is flashing his installs with TECHTOM and why he is removing the FMU and going to larger injectors like I am? He must know somethig right?

If you were seriuosly considering buying the program I honestly think he would be a good person to talk to and is closer to you than TS. Plus he didn't spend 60k or whatever as an intial investment and send an ECU to Japan so maybe he is at more liberty to talk about these questions we all have. Just trying to help. Tossing out ideas.

As for "dataloggers." Anyone who has one is welcome to come and drive in my car with me and log all the data they want. I don't have one and don't know how much they cost but my next money goes towards this pump install and a verter. Then a Stillen oil, and tranny coler. It's just never ending!

If someone really wants data from my car come and get it, I would be happy to share, log away!

The mods are in my sig. Consider it a standing offer. Unless this is like a 50-100 dollar part then sure I'll buy one, but I am just assuming it cost much more than that.

GaryK

Good lord! I stopped reading this thread after getting about halfway through the petty fighting, but I'm going to add my 2 cents, based on logic and not blind faith in a vendors claims.

I agree with the original post by Jesse in this thread, he is pointing out a lot of things that people don't understand. And when it comes down to it, of the people on this board running prochargers he is without a doubt one of the most logical and knowledgable.

Just because the TS ecu flash is good on an n/a application does not mean they have a complete solution for f/i. The TS ecu flash for f/i is not "bad". But, if you really want to see the whole picture and listen to some of the info that is presented on this board alone, you will see that it isn't the absolute solution to getting maximum performance and safety from a f/i z.

Jesse is not losing an argument here. He has presented a post chock full of valid information that most people here just don't understand. The point of this post was obviously not to hurt TS sales. The optimum setup will likely be either a combination of a stock ecu reflash with piggyback fuel and timing control, or a complete replacement of the ecu with one that can do it all. The stock ecu, even when reflashed by TS or anyone else, cannot provide the type of control needed to get to the optimum solution.

If you're in the position of choosing only one thing to add to the complete ATI kit, I'd choose the one that has the best chance of saving the engine while keeping the performance....that's what you guys really want right?

12SecZ

Yes, the Lord is good

and yes that is what I want. However,

I wouldn't say "saving the engine" though more like "protecting the engine" to me saving it implies it is dying, I would like to hope mine is not.

AnywayZ I was told since I flashed with TS I do not need the J&S (by Jesse himself) so now I am even more confused. We are past the fighting and into the meat of the good stuff so don't give up on the thread. This is the net and Vic put us in check nicely. So let's move on. Let's go back to the basics of "adaptive learning and CAN technology." I made a multi page post on that on another forum that was full of great info I jusr reread the whole thread and guess what? We were talking about timing back then in October too lol, negating came up back then too! We have been on the right track all along.

So what is this "Xede?"

First I heard of it but I don't read every thread. Only so many hours in the day. Does it apply to SCer's?

I am all for safety features that don't cripple as you say.

One last thing. The more FI flashes TS gets on the ATI kits the better the flash gets. I will be going back there after I beef up my 9 lb setup. That will be another flash for them to save. They also have an RT flash and Crawford flash now too. Practice makes perfect!

For the record and b4 I get dissed I am not going to 9 lbs for top end higher horse power BTW, with my exhaust wide open and after adding the cat pipes my buffer zone on top end boost was raised. I don't max out like I used to. I am adding the 9 lbs for more low end torque. I will probably be more around 8 lbs though.

I will be safe I promise.

My offer and question on price still stands on this data logger thing. I imagine it's a PnP diagnostic port thing like an OBD1?

One clarification too. I stand corrected. The FCON I think is made by HKS, Henry has met them in person. I had heard AEM was making a stand alone ECU for our car and bailed on it. I looked everywhere prior to going to TS. All the major folks. The 6 cars he recalled on the Emanage they were not all Z's.

jesseenglish

I say that because they have already flashed your ECU for retarded timing. The only advantage you might have with the J&S is with the per cylinder retard feature in case something goes dramatically wrong with your ECU flash.

https://my350z.com/forum/showthread....highlight=xede

Yes they can perfect the flash within the limits of the ECU, the problem I have is that the ecu is still limited. Also, if people have an SC on their car, I definitely would not recommend using a "canned" flash from another user. There are just too many variations between cars to expect best performance and reliability out of the one size fits all flash.