elektrik_juggernaut

Until you have a TS Procharged car with problems, none of this opinion really matters.....the ones that have it are working, and working extremely well

matter of fact.....here's the thread where it all started:

http://350zmotoring.com/forums/showt...&threadid=4680

you posted in their too jesse.......guess you forgot?......thats where Zed talked about being the first TS Procharger.......and i think that's the thread where the J&S Safeguard was first mentioned

12SecZ

Yeah, that is what bothered me and why I reacted the way I did initially. I'm crazy but not stupid. Do you really think I would guinee pig my ATI kit *twice!*



I let someone else do it, I was even offered it for free a few months ago and turned it down! I remember the thread. I remember most everything I post.

So Jesse and Gary let's summarize youur stance so we can start at a fresh point. You both feel that the ATI Kit shipped out in it's stock form with the FMU since June/July is ok as is?

I disagree.

Now we have a new starting point of debate. I will prove my side easy enough having run the stock setup and now a tuner type setup with better results. I am not maing "Vendor claims" I am making real life real world I went through it claims.

GaryK

OK Max, first a few basic points of interest:

1. The ATI supplied FMU is an adequate method for adding fuel as needed with boost levels that you get with the kit. There is not a single person that I know of that has not been able to attain good a/f ratios with this configuration on the ATI kit with the kit pulleys. Note that good a/f ratios do NOT guarantee you won't experience knock.

2. Timing is a completely separate issue. Even though I have not had any problems, I have believed for a while that the timing is an issue for some people. There are a lot of variables that come into play, and I'm not going into detail here.

3. There is nothing "bad" about the TS ecu flash. But, several people here are touting the TS ecu flash as the best solution to fuel and timing control on this forced induction application. This is not the case, and it has NOTHING TO DO WITH TS. It is simply a limitation of the ecu and the sensors available to it for input. There is only so much that can be done by TS within the confines of the stock ecu and inputs.

4. The J&S is not a complete solution to fuel and timing control. It is only a solution to timing control. And a good one at that. As has already been said, a car that uses the J&S unit will likely have better torque in the mid range when set up properly, regardless of whether they're running the fmu or big injectors with ecu tuning. In addition, it may do a better job of adjusting for knock than the ecu alone can do (that part is my opinion). You can use and benefit from the J&S when used with the ATI supplied fmu or with the TS ecu flash.


So, to answer your question...the ATI kit will work fine with the FMU, AS A FUEL SOLUTION, on a car that is relatively stock other than the SC (a couple boltons maybe). You are hung up on the fmu, and it is not really even a problem. That does not mean you will be fine without timing control of some sort. Adding just the J&S would be a wise move. Adding just the TS ecu flash would not be a wise move in my opinion, especially if its a one-size-fits-all deal.

Yes, yes I know that nobody with an ATI/bigger injectors/TS flash has blown a motor yet. I'm not saying they will. But, the chances of that happening are potentially greater with the TS flash versus the J&S. In addition, I think the car with the J&S can be tuned safely while attaining more area under the curve (not peak hp), which will result in a faster car.

Some of what I'm saying here is my opinion, but my opinion is based on facts. Jesse has brought a lot of tech to this board in general, and to this thread. You on the other hand have not. I know you support TS, and are happy with it right now. But Jesse has presented technical information that supports his claims, and you have not done the same. Got tech? Bring it, but please make sure you understand what we're saying first....I'm not sure you do based on what you've said so far.

12SecZ

Well if I have to be an Engineer then I can't play along I guess. I think that leaves about about 75% of the other readers too though Gary.

I'm not gonna argue or be dictated to though while you have all these secrets you are not willing to share publicly.

As for above to your points.

1. No comment, I don't like the FMU for other reasons I haven't went into like adding more fuel lines. Wouldn't you agree that having a T with 3 fuel lines introduces more things that can go wrong then just 1 fuel line? I have caught that T area leaking twice before remving it. Not safe! It also goes lean at times, and this has been proven so no, it's not perfect either.

I am not hung up on the FMU I just think it's a waste of money. I have had mine for sell for 200 shipped for a month without one single buyer so it is not like a brick of gold or anything and lots of people not just me are removing them so no need to single me out on that. When you can't sell an 800 dollar part for 200 shipped that should tell you something. Do you as of 12-12-03 think that the complete kit is a better option than the tuner kit?

2. Why just "some poeple?" You mean as in not all people? Why not go into detail here? Got tech ? Share it and help us. You posted your kit for sale about two weeks after installing it. No one will buy these kits. There are 4 for sale I know of and no will will buy them. So let's not be coy. If there is a timing issue why all the cloak and dagger? This is a community of support, support us.
Is yours for sale? I'm keeping mine. I just want it right. I'm doing everything to make it safe and I am asking questions and sharing answers, that's what forums do.

3. I agree, there is nothing bad with the TS Flash, no arguments there. I am not promoting TS, heck I clowned them for months when it first came out. I could keep all my stuff secret too but I like to share. I am not telling people to go flash their ECU at TS. I am just saying it worked for me and others that's all. Is that a bad thing? I don't get anything out of the deal and paid full price for all of my mods including 900 or more at TS. I am not trying to be argumentative so please don't take it that way in fact here is a big smile :-) , I just won't be down talked for sharing my opinion on what I know people are doing with their ATI kits in *3* yes 3 states now and it is exactly what I did. A fourth state is doing it in the spring. I don't understand why some people say I know of a problem but I am not gonna share it.


4. Please don't assume to know everything about my situation. I have an email into John at J&S about my setup. With me it's not about keeping secrets it's about sharing and no I don't have a degree in Engineering and I may not be as smart as you but I bought the kit and I race with it so I have the right to share my experience with it.

Got manners? Bring em!

12SecZ

Nissan Engineers

https://my350z.com/forum/showthread....&highlight=ecm

BTW the FMU is static right? Atmospheric conditions are not a factor?

GaryK

First of all, after seeing the way you guys jumped on Jesse, I'm losing my desire to be of much help Max. Jesse simply did what you're now asking me to do. He shared information that might be of concern to any of the guys with ATI on their car. You apparently didn't like it for whatever reason. Jesse posted a lot of information in this post, and there's tons more in others you have participated in.

If you truly want to understand, read and ask questions about it. Don't jump to conclusions. Take this how you want it, but you generally don't have technical reasons for not liking something. For example, you just implied in your post that the fmu can't be any good just because nobody wants to buy yours. What kind of logic is that? Give me some tech. What is it that makes it so bad?

No problems with fuel lines here. Installation and attention to detail go a long way. When has it been proven that the fmu "goes lean at times". Who's had this happen?

As far as the "better option" goes, that's a question that cannot be answerd with a blanket statement. It all depends on the individual's needs. Like I said before, the fmu will work as a fuel solution. Are you reading the posts?

Some people means not everybody will have a problem. It depends on available fuel octane, quality of the fuel, atmospheric conditions in your vicinity, other mods to the car, driving habits, tuning.

Nobody is keeping any secrets about the timing. Where do you get this crap from? We have talked about this openly here in several threads.

As far as me selling mine, it has nothing to do with anything but my other needs for cash. FYI, this car is just a toy that I happen to drive daily. And I have other things that I might like to do with the money next year. One of which is doing a full season of roadracing.

And others are just saying that it might not be a complete solution...so why are you so worked up over that? Read and understand what was presented here. It doesn't say you should not get a TS ecu flash. It doesn't say that it will absolutely without a doubt cause a problem. It just says that there may be some disadvantages to using the TS ecu flash without a device like the J&S.

You were the first to reply to this thread, and it was a smartass reply. Now you're worried about being talked down to for expressing your opinion? Give me a break. You act like anybody with facts, or even opinions, that contradict yours is an idiot. That's fine if you have some kind of tech to back up your point. But you don't.

Here we go with the keeping secrets crap again. Nobody is keeping secrets from you Max. The information is right in front of your eyes. But you just want to write it all off because the person from whom it came doesn't drag race or some crap like that. Sharing your experience is fine, but think about the way you present your experience. I understand that some of what we talk about here might be over your head. Do you not want to have a better understanding. We can't break everything down to the most elementary terms all the time...some things are assumed. That's why I say you should ask questions. I'm not saying this is the case, but you almost seem to just dispute anything you don't fully understand.

Now that is FUNNY!

12SecZ

Whatever Gary,

The initial post was innacurate and had my name in it with misatrabutions. I don't see anything in your posts wanting to help people just a bash Max post. I think I have read enough on this topic. You do your thing and I will do mine. You can set your FMU to be perfect and drive into another state and not be safe in your car, but not mine hehe. But heh, it's your car. You can have 6 fuel lines if you like I don't care anymore lol.

My car went boom. Now it runs good. The end.

L8tr.

evilz

uh guys sorry to get caught up in this war...but i have a ati procharged z...complete with fmu ...and i just wanna be safe....should i just get the j+S while keeping my FMU or should i spend all that money on injectors and a reflash.....moderate hp is ok for me...money IS an issue...and so is engine SAFETY...opionions? anyone?

GaryK

What in Jesse's post is inaccurate? And what "misatrabutions" are you talking about? I'm starting to think you just try to stir **** up.

FYI, I don't drive my car more than an hour away ever, and I won't need to. But if I did, I wouldn't be the least bit worried because I have it tuned way rich and I'll have the J&S on to take care of the timing. I'll also be setting the timing up conservatively, so that with the conservative fuel tuning makes me pretty comfortable that it will handle some variations in conditions...quite a bit actually since both my fuel and timing will be controlled based on boost pressure.

So you don't care anymore...I guess I won the argument? Wahoo!

GaryK

How much do you have to spend? If money is tight and you have to choose, I'd go with the J&S and make sure your fuel tuning isn't on the ragged edge. If you're only going to run the kit pulleys then the fmu should be fine for fuel control.

evilz

ok cool...well i drive slow as **** on a day to day basis...but would like to track the car at willowsprings soon....i have a sub 1k budget left for my car... so you think just the ati FMU and a j+s timing retard is sufficient for the track?.....what should my a/f curve be tuned to?...btw im running the 7lb kit pulley...so im only going for like 350 hp to the wheels...im happy with that =)... primarily just looking for dependabillity now untill the next car like in 3 years

Z1 Performance

iTrader: (564)

12 sec - thanks man - I did not know Mike at AA was now a TS dealer for the Z stuff..I will be contacting him soon, and will probably take a drive down for him to do my own car before comitting to being a dealer ourselves.

GaryK

Oh, you plan to track the car. That's a big can of worms. On the track, you'll be running under heavy throttle for an extended period, so it will tend to run hot and increase the potential for detonation. I don't know if the stock radiator will be sufficient, but it might if you aren't running very hard. I'd personally be very cautious about tracking your car.

In any case, I think you absolutely need to run a J&S. Even if you go ahead and run less timing overall, the extra insurance the J&S gives you is a must in my opinion. Ideally, you'd be running a replacement ecu that can control the fuel and timing based on boost. But that isn't an option because of the cost. Its one thing to run the supercharger on the street or at the dragstrip, but its another matter entirely when you run it on a roadcourse. I hate to say it, but I don't know that I'd do it at this point. If I did, I'd at least get the J&S and look into a better radiator.

Oh, regarding the a/f ratios. I'd shoot for 11:1, no higher.

BTW, what are you running for brakes? That will be a problem too.

SKiDaZZLe

i have TS flash (timing retard only), DFMU (boost dependant fuel delivery), and an AFC2 (for fine tuning a/f ratio).

these work fine all together... i do plan on getting a j&s for further safety, and perhaps have some custom timing done with regards to boost levels vs. RPM.

this is all a band-aid for me, as i have major modifications to the car planned for the late-spring/summer.... thats when the 720cc's, 3 bar MAP sensor, and new motec m600 go in

jesseenglish

Hey Gary, thanks for backing me up. It's like banging my head on a brick wall sometimes. I talk about technical stuff and they jump on me because I was wrong about who flashed their ECU first. Arguing about stupid stuff that doesn't matter is tiresome. Glad to see you won the argument though.

You summed up my position very neatly, thanks again. Next time I'll just ignore the petty arguments that have no bearing on anything and only discuss facts.

jesseenglish

Who really gives a ****, and what does it have to do with whether the TS ECU flash is a good option or not? Nothing.

/ignore elektrik_juggernaut

MSGarrett1

SkiDazzLe . . . do you plan, or have you already modified your engine internals? I'm just wondering if you're planning new pistons, rods, etc. Also, I am curious what your goals are. Do you want a 500 rwhp motor? Do you want the first sub-10 second 1/4 mile 350 Z? Or do you just WANT? Then after you have, you WANT more? (not attacking you . . . I like your Z and respect your posts . . . I remember backing you up "back in the day" when people were attacking your audio system b/c your sub was behind the driver's seat . . . I said then and still profess that the sub w/ a properly designed enclosure and LPF will sound just fine . . . sorry to get off topic--my expertise is in car audio and medicine . . . not FI and engine management).

Jesse and Gary, I have to side w/ you guys in this one. I'm no engine expert, but I'll put my intelligence up against anyone, and one need only read the entire thread to realize you guys are voicing technical concerns and others are blindly attacking b/c they like TechonoSquare or b/c they've already paid TS, or maybe b/c they cannot read. Anyway . . . I appreciate your info. It will come in handy once I choose to install my as-yet-undecided method of forced induction. I think in 6 months to a year . . . we'll all know more about the advantages and disadvantages of all the FI options out there, but I think your efforts will go far to optimize the engines of those who have already purchased the Procharger.

whosdady

iTrader: (6)

I think I will throw my .02 in as well. Not to add fuel to the flame (no pun intended) but rather look at this from a different perspective. I personally think both the J&S safegaurd and TS ECU flash are a better option than what we currently have with a stock FMU ATI kit. Not that I have seen the J&S in action, but if it does what it is supposed to do (measure per chamber unlike the average with the ecu ). Then it sounds like it may be slightly more effective in avoiding burnt pistons than a simple ECU flash. However, it is by no means a fix. There are many that believe the fuel supply is limited by the injectors and the pump. No one knows if this is the bomb or simply the timing issue at higher RPM's. I personally think it is a combination.

The J&S will detect knock/AF per psi of boost but will it detect it fast enough before your engine blows due to a lack of fuel? If it does detect it, how sensitive will it be and will you be able to drive your car feeling like it is supercharged? I don't think anyone knows for sure yet. Only time will tell. I think the flash with an upgraded fuel pump, injectors and J&S is the best option overall. However, I personally plan on getting the ecu flash and keep the FMU. For now the FMU seems to work and this will eliminate the timing issues. (not addressing the fuel unfortunately) After a few more months, then I will upgrade the injectors and fuel pump. Hopefully by that time a better set up will be available.

My logic for chosing the ECU over J&S is that the benefits from the ECU flash outweigh the gains from J&S. The TS ECU will control the timing, raise the rev limit, delete speed limit, and keep the t/b open longer. The J&S may be a slightly better solution for simply the timing but that is all. Plus they are only $100 different in price.

Until someone with the TS ECU has issues I will consider it to be safe for my use.

GaryK

whosdaddy-

You are correct in saying the J&S is a solution only for the timing. The timing is the biggest issue at the kit boost levels. The ability of the fuel solution used by ATI to supply enough fuel is not an issue from what I can tell. Nobody has found that they can't get adequate fuel to attain safe a/f ratios to the best of my knowledge. Even on the ones that have had problems, a/f ratios were ok based on what I have read.

Once again, I'm not saying the TS ecu flash is bad. But you mentioned that it can control the timing. The term "control" might be percieved in different ways. Yes, the timing maps can be altered in the ecu...but it does not control timing based on boost. This is an important difference between the TS timing solution and the J&S. And you may already know this, but if you get the ecu flash now with out the changes for larger injectors, then you will have to reflash again later when you do add the injectors.

Also, the J&S is just being adapted for use on the z. But this unit is used on a wide variety of vehicles with excellent results. I used one on my 3rd gen rx7, and it worked great. I know of countless others that have also had excellent results from the J&S.

Just some food for thought...

350Zzzz

I am very curious, based upon your assumptions I would come to understand that the stock 350Z management system is incapable of accurately (close to anyway) responding to F1 boost levels; than how is it that the PE turbo kit works in tandem with the stock management system?

In reference to the stock 02 sensor comment; bear in mind that even the wideband 02 sensor will not be fast enough in its response time to stabilize/maximize the A/F ratio; for the simple reason that the detection occurs after the engine combustion.

Season's greetings

G