Yeah rich, since I was detonating at 535whp on meatbags tune I thought I would just try to make 560whp this t8me and keep my fingers crossed. €@$^&÷;?????????

I have alreay said the tune is not done. I also said I will probably have to go below 500whp on 91oct to be truly safe.

The 560 we made on 91was as low as we could get with the springs that were in it.
My tuner scrounged around and came up with a spring combo to make a 9lb (I think) spring.

So we tried 12lbs of boost and still got some det. Then we backed the timming WAY off and found it was just barely detonating and only sometimes. At that piont we had to call it a day.
Still lots of tunning to be done.

I took the car home and put in 5 galons of 100oct into my tank that was a little over half full of 91oct. That stopped the detonation completely. After that I drove around some and topped it off again with 8gals of 100oct. Had some fun withit saturday and left town sunday.

Now that I know what detonation sounds like I feel alot more confident that I wont hurt my engine in this way.

 

Why should I listen to you? If there is one person more hard headed on here than me its you!
In are previos (conversation) you emidiatly blamed ipp without any evidence whatsoever.
Even after disproving many of your assumptions you you hold your own opinion as fact.

Im way past the spark plug theory so get over it!

575whp on 90oct at 20lbs of boost with stock heat range plugs? Lol. Even I know thats impossible! I was about to call u a liar until I realised your running meth. Funny u left that part out.

You say I keep doing the same thing over and over but nothing could be further from the truth.
I made changes on everyone of my builds to try and correct previous mistakes.

You acuse me of going cheap but I have nothing but top quality parts...stage2 ipp engine, momentum turbo kit, momentum headers,momentum exhaust,jwt c2 cams, cjm stage 2 fuel return, megan racing radiator, custom oil catch can, plenum spacer, full head work, haltec ecu, spec super twin clutch, yada yada bla bla bla.

Not exactly cheap, atleast not by my standards.

Your not a genius just cause you can spin a wrench.
But insted of helpful criticism I just get flamed because I dont have expert mechanical abilities and have to rely on (professionals) to accomplish my goals.

I have no interest in continuing this thread in a negative manner. I have concerns and questions I wanted to ask advice on (thought thats what this forum was about) but I really dont see the piont anymore.

 

yes i did blame ipp because if you honestly think that they had 0 to do with it your retarded its not what I think its fact only a couple things cause spun bearings. even with different tuners unless your hiring bums off the street then obviously its not 100% there fault either.

wanna bet? i was making 600 at 20 psi spiking to 26 psi causing it to drop 100 hp, im running 22 psi now(which going back was still slipping the clutch when i tryed a couple more dyno runs on old clutch, at the same place at the same power.) with no meth and not running any of my 100 octane mix either since im still breaking in the new clutch. no det what so ever so try again obviously it is possible if you know what your doing i run 8.0:1 compression. so come on fly over here and call me a liar to my face and then ill make you look stupid by letting you choose which dyno on island you wanna take it to ill tell you this though munkey wurks will give the highest reading on there dynapack so might wanna steer clear of there but ill gladly make it even easier to do(and hit a higher number) jeff actually mad 650 rwhp at 22 psi on this kit, my number will be slightly lower because of stock cams so i dont rev it as high but torque is also rediculous, the 601 ft lbs recorded at 4800 rpms according to the dyno and i havnt changed the map at all yet other then switching boost from 32 psi(which motor hasnt seen yet) down to 22 psi

no im not running meth might wanna check your own damn facts havnt been running meth for awhile now you simply have 0 idea what your doing with a engine hence why you pay people to do it(and have demonstrated that you fail at even doing that.) went ahead and bolded the common denominator with all your busted engines. in fact its the one thing you HAVE NOT changed but you still keep getting the same result which is what my comment about not changing is pointed at. funny thing is im not the only one whos telling you that your retarded for continuing to throw money at them, why wouldnt they build you a crap engine? they know your going to defend them and keep paying them especially since your not the only one online to have issues with there engines.

nope spinning a wrench dosnt make me a genius however scoring a 144 on the stanford binet 5 technically does, also i was a professional mechanic, as well as collision repair tech, and even did parts work before the army and have demonstrated i know what the hell im doing so i think i have far more credibility then you and others would agree on here. i obviously dint just wake up one night and knew how to build cars nor was my z the first i ever did, what hilarious is that you who have no idea what they are doing is trying to say that myself and others who have ZERO to gain by telling you something are wrong, simply because shops who are repeatedly being paid by you told you something different. again why wouldnt places tell you its not there fault? they dont have to provide proof they simply say so and you defend them and keep throwing your money away. cant promise a engine from someone like dynosty or vtr wouldnt have blown but it would have taken more before it did if you keep running something that obviously isnt running on a correct tune then your retarded.

you are correct there is zero reason to continue because if you look throughout you where told by people who have been there done that and actually do work on there own **** and you simply tell them they are wrong and ignore them. do you honestly think you wont be berated when you ask for help and then ignore it? i would throw someone like that out if they walked into a shop i worked at or owned, in the army the person would be pushing until i got bored possibly longer. i dont make you ignorant you did that on your own.

btw fyi stock plugs on large amounts of meth show slightest hints of glazing at the power level i was making the 600 to the wheels through a slipping clutch where it was spiking to 26. 22 psi on hawaii's shitty 92 octane(go ahead tune on 92 octane with no det, you will det using the 92 here like i said its closer to 90 octane mayby 91) causes them to fully glaze and i need to replace them.

the issue with plug heat ranges IS NOT detonation again if you can grasp that then you shouldnt open your mouth about cars. the issue is they get to hot and glaze and become hot spots leading to PRE IGNITION. the help with det some by removing heat from the chamber and sending it to the head but the cooling from the gas entering the hot chamber provides far more cooling then plugs do hence why exhaust gases are hotter then the melting point of aluminum but dont melt the pistons.

again dont try to tell someone who knows what they are talking about they are wrong when you have no experience it makes you look stupid.

 

I would have changed builders but I had minor dammage and powerfab coverd half the cost thats why I stayed with ipp.

I have been trying to learn as much as possible but all I get is conflicting data.
I have had multiple people (including str8dum) tell me that I was running too much power for 91oct. One tuner told me 91 becomes unstable after about 510hp.

So usually when I open my mouth and look stupid im just conveying info I got from you guys my tuner or something I read.

So why cant I make similar as you on 91?

 

compression has a major affect on it and easily the biggest reason i run a bit more power, i also run a very very loose engine that most wouldnt run on the street on this platform but has done well for me on other platforms which contributes to lower overall heat again allowing a little bit more power however only minor. tradeoff is response with the compression, and a smelly engine with more then average blow by thats noisy on startup(cams are noisy even hot). look at hal he made 610 on there dyno on 93, 2 octane can be a difference but not that big. i also run a bigger more efficient turbo for that power level resulting in a cooler charge(at speed my intake temps even at boost drop to 98 degrees which isnt bad at all) its the sum of the parts that all add up, a bunch of minor things that togeather make a big difference. compression is the biggest thing though mine is absurdly low by todays standards but i had specific goals in mind and knew e85 would be hard to find in some locations.

even at half cost i would rather pay full cost 1 more time then half cost 2 or 3 more times plus the time without my car, but then again thats why i build my own because theres very few people i would trust with a engine build.

 

Ok I stand corected. I guess I just assumed on what I have been told so far that your numbers would be impossible on 91oct.

I am having all the work done now at turbolab in orem utah. Joe the owner is is very knowledgeable and educated. He has a very diversified work history. He has built just about every thing you can think of from vehicles used in movies to turbo charging small aircraft.
He used to work for sts and helped design thier kits.

Even though he has built and tuned many 350/370zs and g's he is more of a honda guy and after he is finished with me car I plan to take it to dynosty or some other shop that can check and fine tune my ride.

Im happy with what he has done so far. Unlike powerfab(recomended to me by kyle at ipp) I have had no immediate issues with fitment or incorrect assembly.

He put my momentum kit back together in lees than a day after it had been sittng in his shop for months without the instructions.

But I do have some concerns I was hoping you could help me with.

Got the car back and did the break in myself. Car was not tuned yet and I did all the break in without boosting it. Had the break in oil drained at 100 miles. Put in some penn 10/40 and after 100 miles oil still looked pretty clean. However after 400 miles I took the car back to be tuned and when joe inspected the oil it was dirty and had trace elements of bearing material in it.

Joe said if this was a honda ebgine he would be sending it back right now.

Is it normal to have a small amount of bearing material in the break in oil on vq's ?
And is it normal for the oil to get dirty so quickly?

I have 0 leaks and dont seem to have any crank case pressure issues.

Joe put some rotela in and after about 200 boosted miles the oil was pretty dirty again but imo had way less particulates in it.

 

it might be normal to have a tiny bit of materials in the oil, i had just a touch that im pretty sure might have just been passages that where not fully cleaned by the machine shop since it was more like dust. had no affect on the engine and you could barely see it my guess if he is saying he is seeing bearing material its pretty noticeable which would worry me immediately.

out of boost untuned could have damaged it but if you where taking it easy i would say it was difficult unless the previous tune was horrible.

my break in oil was cheapo straight 30 weight from oreilys with gm eos added, did a hard break in and changed it at 40 miles, after that it was rotella 15w40 at 100 miles, 250 miles, 500 miles and 1k miles. only one that was noticably dirty was 1k and it saw boost between every oil change even the break in oil.

never used penn because ive had such great success with rotella its a great oil even the newer stuff still matchs race oils for the anti wear package, and its designed to take the high pressures that diesels see.

 

Thats almost perbatum what joe told me. He also used cheapo oil for break in and recomends rotella wich I plan to use. I never got on it at all during untuned break in. May have goton 1 or 2 lbs of boost accidently a couple of times but I tried to not boost at all.

Do you have any theories on what might be causing it to get dirty so quickly?

I have zero blow by so far and no leaks. Put in a really nice catch can and supposedly it is supposed to keep my oil cleaner.

 

all engines will have blow by which is the number 1 cause however just wear does it as well as it collects materials from the engine. pretty much the two top things that cause it to darken is carbon(dosnt take much at all) and also sludge from other particulates in the engine, heat does it as well but takes way longer and oils are different. my main concern would be the bearing material but you could have a little more blow by then you think you have as well.

is this the first time you have taken it to the current shop? seems like he might know what he is talking about mayby just have him build the engine lol

 

Hey why not send the oil out to blackstone? I don't see how staring at it tells you much. Those visible 'particles' could be anything, like jerry said maybe leftover or even normal. The UOE will tell you what's really 'in' the oil, not just sitting in the pan. $30 for peace of mind on a $5-$10k engine makes alot of sense, at least to me

 

I plan on doing that but im out of town right now.

 

Subscribed for engine oil analysis updates.

Jerry:

Do you have any recommendations on break-in oil change schedules for new FI builds?
Not sure what my shops procedure is, but I'm going to spend any extra dollars on a proper break-in.

 

i liked the schedule i did personally, alot of people will say its unnecessary but i would insist on the initial oil change at 25-50 miles, most of the engines break in occurs during that period so getting the majority of particles from break in out of the engine imo is vital. after that i would suggest at a minimum 500 miles and 1k miles then just normal oil changes however im pretty paranoid hence the addition oil changes at 100 and 250, in all reality thats probably overkill but i was very concerned because i built my engine in a parking lot so the possibility of contaminants was very real for me.

the majority of bearing failures come from dirty surfaces, went through an entire roll of lint free rags and 3 bottles of carb cleaner(since it evaps fast) just for my rod and main bearings. after that its improper clearances for the power or oil and finally det.

im still a firm believer that most if the issues on this platform are related to improper clearances, i really dont think so many engines are built in dirty conditions or allowed to get particles on the bearing surfaces but i could be wrong. ive posted it before but the clearances i run are similar to a small block chevy, our bearings are actually larger then theres, larger bearings mean they need more clearance. lsx engines have smaller bearings as well and call for nearly the same clearances as nissan has for the vq motor(factory) which tells me if someone is following the fsm theres going to be issues, which would explain alot since it seems most issues are above a certain power level where extra heat is being generated and causes more expansion of journals. our bearings are nearly the size of a big block chevy which can run .0045 clearances with no issues, the only downside is using thicker oil to account for it. manufacturers cant do this because it increases emissions as well as pumping losses so they run tighter clearances with thin oils to improve these issues to meet government standards.

make no mistake though my engine isnt as efficient as a stock vq, its also smelly and noisy theres always a compromise when you want more power without more displacement.

 

That make alot of sense. I wonder what ipp stets clearances at for the stage 2 block?
Btw, I had another conversation with joe about my oil. He said that he found just a trace of bearing material and that it was like dust similar to what you had present so that makes me feel alittle better.

Im gonna get the tune finished change the oil one more time and then have an analysis done.
Thanks for all the info.

 

Yeah 1st time with turbolab. Im really impressed so far but I really liked powerfb in the beginning too. Proof will be in the pudding.

 

Oil is analyzed in parts per MILLION. If your motor guy can physically see material, then you have a real problem. Unless he's a terminator robot.

 

my first 2 oil changes had a metal dust of sorts that you could see first one far more then second. could see it by looking at it just the right way in the light because the oil was so clear during the first two oils changes. my current 2500 oil changes there would be no way but initial it wouldnt suprise me to see some.

when someone says they see bearing material i think of slivers or chunks something rather large thats very easy to spot not just looking at it in just the right way.

 

Been out of commission for a while since I fried my tranny!
Got new tranny and then attempted to finish tune but we r having problems.

Cant get rid of detonation completely! Car detonates in the same spot every time (around 4500 rpms).

Made 560whp on 91oct @ 15lbs on the dynojet without detonation. However on the street it detonated significantly at 4500rpms.

Put in smaller spring and turned boost down to around 12lbs and same thing happened, although detonation wasnt as bad.

So we started to back off timing and kept backing it off with no luck. Took out 10 degrees of timing (currently at 8 degrees) and it STILL detonates a little.

Been mixing 7 gallons of 100 oct with every tank so I can drive it.

2nd issue is that sometimes (3 for me) the engine will cut out for a second and then come back to life. I have had this happen under heavy acceleration in a straight line with plenty of fuel and it happened once to my tuner under about 1/4 throttle. My previous tuner had some fueling issues ( something to do with the basket I think) and sometimes when low on fuel the engine would cut out if I took a 90 degree right hand turn as fast as possible. However it is my gut instinct that these different types of cut outs are caused by two different problems.hmmm or mabey its a bad battery connection.

3rd issue is that my oil gets dark very quickly (like after 300 miles). Could this be caused by a rich tune?

 

Dark oil means contamination from hydrocarbons. Could be from fuel, unclean engine, or just plain old stuff coming through the filter.

About your detonation. How are you calling it detonation? Based on the knock sensor signal or do you have a det can and have pulled the plugs to verify there is detonation on the spark plugs?

It doesn't sound like detonation to me. Sounds like something else is causing false knock in the system. Also, running the timing that low can cause some serious heat build up in the combustion chambers which would cause detonation. When I first started pushing higher numbers I was really low on my timing and kept getting a knock signal/misfire. It was due to low a/f and low timing. I started adding timing in and it all went away.

 

Havnt verified that it is infact detonation. I will ask my tuner to put new plugs in, make it "detonate" and 5hen check plugs again.

He seemed sure of it so I didnt question him. The detonation went away completly after mixing half 100oct and half 91oct so maybe that was proof enough to him.

So if it isnt really detonation wouldn't the problem still exist after mixing fuel?
Also car is running rich right now...going into the 10's under full boost and I think I may have even bottomed out the aem afr gage at 10 a couple of times.

At idle it reads mid 12's to mid 13's. Is this rich enough to cause problems that relate to the detonation and the dirty oil?


Detonatoin was detected by hearing it during street tuning. Its in only one spot (at about 4500 rpms) and dose not det on the dyno at all.

So far this is the common denominator between this build and the last oneas it is detonating just like it did with the last build.

Last engine showed a lean condition on one piston and detonation on another.