momentum gt3794r build.
10-20-2011, 03:44 PM
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momentum gt3794r build.
Just got my ipp stage 2 engine finished today.
My 2004 1/2 350z is at powerfab auto in spring tx.
Like some of you, I learned the hard way about fi.
I bought this car in 2008.
I blew my stock motor on an sts kit after about 1500 miles.
I then tried to upgrade my sts kit with better parts..precision 65/62 turbo, exa scavenge pump, uprev tunning, ipp stage 2 engine ect...
but I forgot to upgrade my mechanic so I blew that engine too.
Now I have that engine rebuilt and ready to be mated with a quality kit and installed by a reputable shop.
So without further delay, here is my build list.
Ipp stage 2 long block.
Wiesco .20 over pistons
Eagle rods
L19 studs
Hr head gaskit
Osirus and haltec ecu
Not sure on injector size yet cuz I might do an e85 tune if I can't reach my power goals on 91 octane. ( 93 Oct not available where I live )
Plenum spacer
Plenum chromed
Momentum st tuner kit ( gt3794r upgrade )
Momentum headers.
Momentum cat-back dual exhaust
Cjm stage 2 fuel return system
Aremotive 340lph fuel pump
De-airation kit for coolant
I'm sure I forgot some stuff but that's the just of it.
If I can break 600 whp on 91 octane I won't need the e85 tune.
I also plan on making a c16 tune to see what this set-up can do.
I just hope my sacrifices have appeased the engine gods.
My 2004 1/2 350z is at powerfab auto in spring tx.
Like some of you, I learned the hard way about fi.
I bought this car in 2008.
I blew my stock motor on an sts kit after about 1500 miles.
I then tried to upgrade my sts kit with better parts..precision 65/62 turbo, exa scavenge pump, uprev tunning, ipp stage 2 engine ect...
but I forgot to upgrade my mechanic so I blew that engine too.
Now I have that engine rebuilt and ready to be mated with a quality kit and installed by a reputable shop.
So without further delay, here is my build list.
Ipp stage 2 long block.
Wiesco .20 over pistons
Eagle rods
L19 studs
Hr head gaskit
Osirus and haltec ecu
Not sure on injector size yet cuz I might do an e85 tune if I can't reach my power goals on 91 octane. ( 93 Oct not available where I live )
Plenum spacer
Plenum chromed
Momentum st tuner kit ( gt3794r upgrade )
Momentum headers.
Momentum cat-back dual exhaust
Cjm stage 2 fuel return system
Aremotive 340lph fuel pump
De-airation kit for coolant
I'm sure I forgot some stuff but that's the just of it.
If I can break 600 whp on 91 octane I won't need the e85 tune.
I also plan on making a c16 tune to see what this set-up can do.
I just hope my sacrifices have appeased the engine gods.
10-20-2011, 03:56 PM
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10-20-2011, 04:01 PM
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The Gtx XXr series are billet, the gt series are standard wheels. I'd talk to your shop asap about that, if it's not too late it would be a wise upgrade.
I'm going to be running a 71mm billet looking for less than 600whp (probably like 550+whp) on straight 91. With meth/water I'll seek about 700whp. I think with a 67mm you're going to be a bit harder pressed. That hta flows like 900whp just like my 7175, but on much higher boost levels and on 2 liters. It will be interesting to see what you make, it should make what you want but I think you'll need something better than 91 for 600whp.
I'm going to be running a 71mm billet looking for less than 600whp (probably like 550+whp) on straight 91. With meth/water I'll seek about 700whp. I think with a 67mm you're going to be a bit harder pressed. That hta flows like 900whp just like my 7175, but on much higher boost levels and on 2 liters. It will be interesting to see what you make, it should make what you want but I think you'll need something better than 91 for 600whp.
Last edited by Resmarted; 10-20-2011 at 04:02 PM.
10-20-2011, 04:09 PM
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10-20-2011, 04:48 PM
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The Gtx XXr series are billet, the gt series are standard wheels. I'd talk to your shop asap about that, if it's not too late it would be a wise upgrade.
I'm going to be running a 71mm billet looking for less than 600whp (probably like 550+whp) on straight 91. With meth/water I'll seek about 700whp. I think with a 67mm you're going to be a bit harder pressed. That hta flows like 900whp just like my 7175, but on much higher boost levels and on 2 liters. It will be interesting to see what you make, it should make what you want but I think you'll need something better than 91 for 600whp.
I'm going to be running a 71mm billet looking for less than 600whp (probably like 550+whp) on straight 91. With meth/water I'll seek about 700whp. I think with a 67mm you're going to be a bit harder pressed. That hta flows like 900whp just like my 7175, but on much higher boost levels and on 2 liters. It will be interesting to see what you make, it should make what you want but I think you'll need something better than 91 for 600whp.
For the money I spent, I was hopeing for around 620 whp.
I might not get all the way their but I think ill be happy with the kits performance and quality.
10-20-2011, 05:32 PM
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I'll get what I get.
10-20-2011, 08:13 PM
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600hp is a tough goal on 93, let alone 91.
e85 will probably get you the same power you get on 91 because you will run out of pump before you will octane. You'll need at least a dual setup for those goals on e85.
Better choice would be a meth injection. That would increase your octane and also get you more power with the same fuel system.
The build looks nice. I'm looking forward to seeing what it will do.
e85 will probably get you the same power you get on 91 because you will run out of pump before you will octane. You'll need at least a dual setup for those goals on e85.
Better choice would be a meth injection. That would increase your octane and also get you more power with the same fuel system.
The build looks nice. I'm looking forward to seeing what it will do.
10-21-2011, 02:33 AM
#17
I chose my turbo over a billet 67 because I felt it would run out of steam on a 6 cylinder, and then opted for a 75 hotside (vs the traditional 7168) for nearly the same reason. And to boot the .96 vs the smaller .84 (i think its .84...). I'm hoping I can afford cams and valvesprings NOW before everything's coming together... That way I can rev out and make more power.
Get ready for quite the reading. I'm pretty tired as it's 3:30am, but I kinda been itching to write out all I know about this fuel deal. I'll go over it tomorrow some time and edit for errors, I'm sure I made a few but you guys can point them out ahead of time.
________________________________________________________
+1 on going for meth injection. A 340 is plenty of pump, as long as you're not going with e85. I personally don't really agree with ethanol as a fuel ATM, mainly because it's all made from Corn, and I disagree with the economic effects of using food as fuel... Also my 'gut' skeptical about the combustion chamber effects of Ethanol although I've yet to hear anything bad about ethanol and engine internals. I have heard/seen tons of bad stuff about direct injection (crapping up intake manifolds on bmws etc), but that's a different story. I've heard people quote ethanol to be about 105 octane, and some people quote it as low as 94 octane. From a very smart professor I heard that it should be about 99 octane or 100 (he stated that it could be rated at the 105 level when tested/compared in terms of gasoline, but when tested/compared in terms of methanol its just about 100, idk the specifics behind this so don't ask).
The thing about meth injection is that meth can help you 'make' more power than just straight gasoline, because you are adding fuel (methanol is fuel, just of a lower btu/higher octane). But it doesn't help prevent detonation as much as people think.
Detonation is uncontrolled ignition in the combustion chamber, and methanol has a very low evaporation point. That same thermodynamic property (methanol's ability to dissipate heat easily) allows meth to evaporate quickly and rapidly cool the intake charge (which is where MOST of it's anti knock properties exist when injected). The other way Methanol helps to increase octane is by pure basic percentages, but not by much. You run 10% air volume as meth injection and you knock back your fuel amount. If meth is let's say 105 octane, and you are running 91, you have (these are random percentages, for the sake of quick a example; I don't actually know how much fuel vs meth you can run or most cars run) 90% 91 octane and 10% 105, weighted averages says it's really only 92.4 octane.
Water on the other hand is very good at preventing detonation because it has a higher threshold for evaporation, one that likely won't be seen until the combustion chamber where it squelches knock. It also has a great added benefit of steam cleaning your head and pistons (leading to longer engine life provided that you maintain everything etc). But it doesn't do nearly as much for lowering AIT.
Part of the reason meth/water injection got so popular was because stock cars or lightly modded cars could keep basic fuel systems and add a bit more fuel with the meth and get a bit more detonation protection with the water. That would allow them to crank up the boost and go outside of efficiency islands (for oem or whatever turbos), still have much improved AITs (compared to running that boost level without meth to soak up excess turbo heat), and have slightly better octane.
Here's where things get interesting.
Traditional 'race gas' has a HIGH octane. These are your basic leaded fuels. Lead was added, in the past to our gas, to raise the specific heat of the gasoline, which allows for increased combustion temps without detonation. I'm fairly sure it's still used in some types of race fuel (not sure which ones, have 0 first hand experience with race gas in general so...) but is illegal on the street (for good reason, all that lead gets put straight into our atmosphere and then we breathe that sh*t. lead is a pretty strong carcinogen so that's all bad). But Modern race gas has a high octane (or slow burning rate) with oxygenation (they have Oxygen atoms in the fuel's chemical structure). In other words they can 'burn' more completely per drop. C-16, Q-16 and VP Import I believe are all oxygenated. This lets you make more power.
So, with water injection you can theoretically get a very strong octane rating (or resistance to detonation) but not that much of a power boost like you would with race gas. With meth you can get that 'power boost' (it's a little more complicated than just more meth, more power) but not as much detonation suppression as water.
I personally believe on a street california car, water injection is the way to go and just 'crank up the boost.' I'll be trying this out when my car is done to see what works best. I don't have e85 in my area so it never really came into the discussion. If you are going to want an e85 tune you will need a big fuel system. Thing is distilled water is everywhere and costs like what, a buck a gallon? And meth you can find relatively easily too. A decent meth kit can cost about 400$, maybe 300$ if you want a super basic boost dependent kit, or over 900$ if you want a real clever multi nozzle, multi stage kit.
Ultimately, talk to your tuner. See if they are more comfortable with injection systems, or e85. Both have been proven to work, but it's wisest to go with what your tuner works best with.
Again, probably a few errors in here, feel free to correct me. I'm about spreading the right ish, not the wrong ish.
10-21-2011, 04:24 AM
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Wow I am excited to see a single turbo build hit 600whp on pump gas. I hope one of you two guys go pump + meth so I we can see the results. I have not seen anyone so far with the combo of ST+Pump gas + meth and 600whp.
10-21-2011, 04:33 AM
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Good read! What about going with something like boost juice vs running 100% water? That way you get the best of both worlds?
Doing a one off mid mount 7175 precision with long tube headers and twin 38mm wastegates. .96 A/R
I chose my turbo over a billet 67 because I felt it would run out of steam on a 6 cylinder, and then opted for a 75 hotside (vs the traditional 7168) for nearly the same reason. And to boot the .96 vs the smaller .84 (i think its .84...). I'm hoping I can afford cams and valvesprings NOW before everything's coming together... That way I can rev out and make more power.
Get ready for quite the reading. I'm pretty tired as it's 3:30am, but I kinda been itching to write out all I know about this fuel deal. I'll go over it tomorrow some time and edit for errors, I'm sure I made a few but you guys can point them out ahead of time.
________________________________________________________
+1 on going for meth injection. A 340 is plenty of pump, as long as you're not going with e85. I personally don't really agree with ethanol as a fuel ATM, mainly because it's all made from Corn, and I disagree with the economic effects of using food as fuel... Also my 'gut' skeptical about the combustion chamber effects of Ethanol although I've yet to hear anything bad about ethanol and engine internals. I have heard/seen tons of bad stuff about direct injection (crapping up intake manifolds on bmws etc), but that's a different story. I've heard people quote ethanol to be about 105 octane, and some people quote it as low as 94 octane. From a very smart professor I heard that it should be about 99 octane or 100 (he stated that it could be rated at the 105 level when tested/compared in terms of gasoline, but when tested/compared in terms of methanol its just about 100, idk the specifics behind this so don't ask).
The thing about meth injection is that meth can help you 'make' more power than just straight gasoline, because you are adding fuel (methanol is fuel, just of a lower btu/higher octane). But it doesn't help prevent detonation as much as people think.
Detonation is uncontrolled ignition in the combustion chamber, and methanol has a very low evaporation point. That same thermodynamic property (methanol's ability to dissipate heat easily) allows meth to evaporate quickly and rapidly cool the intake charge (which is where MOST of it's anti knock properties exist when injected). The other way Methanol helps to increase octane is by pure basic percentages, but not by much. You run 10% air volume as meth injection and you knock back your fuel amount. If meth is let's say 105 octane, and you are running 91, you have (these are random percentages, for the sake of quick a example; I don't actually know how much fuel vs meth you can run or most cars run) 90% 91 octane and 10% 105, weighted averages says it's really only 92.4 octane.
Water on the other hand is very good at preventing detonation because it has a higher threshold for evaporation, one that likely won't be seen until the combustion chamber where it squelches knock. It also has a great added benefit of steam cleaning your head and pistons (leading to longer engine life provided that you maintain everything etc). But it doesn't do nearly as much for lowering AIT.
Part of the reason meth/water injection got so popular was because stock cars or lightly modded cars could keep basic fuel systems and add a bit more fuel with the meth and get a bit more detonation protection with the water. That would allow them to crank up the boost and go outside of efficiency islands (for oem or whatever turbos), still have much improved AITs (compared to running that boost level without meth to soak up excess turbo heat), and have slightly better octane.
Here's where things get interesting.
Traditional 'race gas' has a HIGH octane. These are your basic leaded fuels. Lead was added, in the past to our gas, to raise the specific heat of the gasoline, which allows for increased combustion temps without detonation. I'm fairly sure it's still used in some types of race fuel (not sure which ones, have 0 first hand experience with race gas in general so...) but is illegal on the street (for good reason, all that lead gets put straight into our atmosphere and then we breathe that sh*t. lead is a pretty strong carcinogen so that's all bad). But Modern race gas has a high octane (or slow burning rate) with oxygenation (they have Oxygen atoms in the fuel's chemical structure). In other words they can 'burn' more completely per drop. C-16, Q-16 and VP Import I believe are all oxygenated. This lets you make more power.
So, with water injection you can theoretically get a very strong octane rating (or resistance to detonation) but not that much of a power boost like you would with race gas. With meth you can get that 'power boost' (it's a little more complicated than just more meth, more power) but not as much detonation suppression as water.
I personally believe on a street california car, water injection is the way to go and just 'crank up the boost.' I'll be trying this out when my car is done to see what works best. I don't have e85 in my area so it never really came into the discussion. If you are going to want an e85 tune you will need a big fuel system. Thing is distilled water is everywhere and costs like what, a buck a gallon? And meth you can find relatively easily too. A decent meth kit can cost about 400$, maybe 300$ if you want a super basic boost dependent kit, or over 900$ if you want a real clever multi nozzle, multi stage kit.
Ultimately, talk to your tuner. See if they are more comfortable with injection systems, or e85. Both have been proven to work, but it's wisest to go with what your tuner works best with.
Again, probably a few errors in here, feel free to correct me. I'm about spreading the right ish, not the wrong ish.
I chose my turbo over a billet 67 because I felt it would run out of steam on a 6 cylinder, and then opted for a 75 hotside (vs the traditional 7168) for nearly the same reason. And to boot the .96 vs the smaller .84 (i think its .84...). I'm hoping I can afford cams and valvesprings NOW before everything's coming together... That way I can rev out and make more power.
Get ready for quite the reading. I'm pretty tired as it's 3:30am, but I kinda been itching to write out all I know about this fuel deal. I'll go over it tomorrow some time and edit for errors, I'm sure I made a few but you guys can point them out ahead of time.
________________________________________________________
+1 on going for meth injection. A 340 is plenty of pump, as long as you're not going with e85. I personally don't really agree with ethanol as a fuel ATM, mainly because it's all made from Corn, and I disagree with the economic effects of using food as fuel... Also my 'gut' skeptical about the combustion chamber effects of Ethanol although I've yet to hear anything bad about ethanol and engine internals. I have heard/seen tons of bad stuff about direct injection (crapping up intake manifolds on bmws etc), but that's a different story. I've heard people quote ethanol to be about 105 octane, and some people quote it as low as 94 octane. From a very smart professor I heard that it should be about 99 octane or 100 (he stated that it could be rated at the 105 level when tested/compared in terms of gasoline, but when tested/compared in terms of methanol its just about 100, idk the specifics behind this so don't ask).
The thing about meth injection is that meth can help you 'make' more power than just straight gasoline, because you are adding fuel (methanol is fuel, just of a lower btu/higher octane). But it doesn't help prevent detonation as much as people think.
Detonation is uncontrolled ignition in the combustion chamber, and methanol has a very low evaporation point. That same thermodynamic property (methanol's ability to dissipate heat easily) allows meth to evaporate quickly and rapidly cool the intake charge (which is where MOST of it's anti knock properties exist when injected). The other way Methanol helps to increase octane is by pure basic percentages, but not by much. You run 10% air volume as meth injection and you knock back your fuel amount. If meth is let's say 105 octane, and you are running 91, you have (these are random percentages, for the sake of quick a example; I don't actually know how much fuel vs meth you can run or most cars run) 90% 91 octane and 10% 105, weighted averages says it's really only 92.4 octane.
Water on the other hand is very good at preventing detonation because it has a higher threshold for evaporation, one that likely won't be seen until the combustion chamber where it squelches knock. It also has a great added benefit of steam cleaning your head and pistons (leading to longer engine life provided that you maintain everything etc). But it doesn't do nearly as much for lowering AIT.
Part of the reason meth/water injection got so popular was because stock cars or lightly modded cars could keep basic fuel systems and add a bit more fuel with the meth and get a bit more detonation protection with the water. That would allow them to crank up the boost and go outside of efficiency islands (for oem or whatever turbos), still have much improved AITs (compared to running that boost level without meth to soak up excess turbo heat), and have slightly better octane.
Here's where things get interesting.
Traditional 'race gas' has a HIGH octane. These are your basic leaded fuels. Lead was added, in the past to our gas, to raise the specific heat of the gasoline, which allows for increased combustion temps without detonation. I'm fairly sure it's still used in some types of race fuel (not sure which ones, have 0 first hand experience with race gas in general so...) but is illegal on the street (for good reason, all that lead gets put straight into our atmosphere and then we breathe that sh*t. lead is a pretty strong carcinogen so that's all bad). But Modern race gas has a high octane (or slow burning rate) with oxygenation (they have Oxygen atoms in the fuel's chemical structure). In other words they can 'burn' more completely per drop. C-16, Q-16 and VP Import I believe are all oxygenated. This lets you make more power.
So, with water injection you can theoretically get a very strong octane rating (or resistance to detonation) but not that much of a power boost like you would with race gas. With meth you can get that 'power boost' (it's a little more complicated than just more meth, more power) but not as much detonation suppression as water.
I personally believe on a street california car, water injection is the way to go and just 'crank up the boost.' I'll be trying this out when my car is done to see what works best. I don't have e85 in my area so it never really came into the discussion. If you are going to want an e85 tune you will need a big fuel system. Thing is distilled water is everywhere and costs like what, a buck a gallon? And meth you can find relatively easily too. A decent meth kit can cost about 400$, maybe 300$ if you want a super basic boost dependent kit, or over 900$ if you want a real clever multi nozzle, multi stage kit.
Ultimately, talk to your tuner. See if they are more comfortable with injection systems, or e85. Both have been proven to work, but it's wisest to go with what your tuner works best with.
Again, probably a few errors in here, feel free to correct me. I'm about spreading the right ish, not the wrong ish.