I guess I'm surprised I haven't seen more posts from people who have installed the Vortech kit. Please chime in if you've installed one on your Z. I'd love to compare dynos since I have the G35 sedan (so my numbers are a bit lower than what I'd expect from a Z).

For the rest of you... Has the whole ATI issue caused you to rethink your entire FI decision?

--Steve

 

YES......personally if it is possible for a Greddy kit to blow after all the engineering that went into it I will wait a little longer to see how things go. It's tough because the money is at the ready.....must spend SOOON!!

 

Exactly. I'm with g356gear. I have the money ready, and even have a 2nd vehicle to use as my daily driver, while the Z's in the shop, but damn, I don't want to drop $5-10K, then a week later my engine blows.

Then, of course, Nissan would give me the finger, the kit manufacturer would point fingers at the tuner, and the tuner at the kit manufacturer. Meanwhile, I'm left with a very expensive repair, after just spending thousands of dollars. No way. I'll wait a year or two until I am convinced that a RELIABLE F.I. kit can be made for this vehicle.

It is unreal that ATI would put out a kit and then we see all the problems that we have seen. Ooops, we needed to retard the timing in the upper RPMs. $hit, if that wasn't discovered in ATI's R&D, then there really was NO R&D!!! Now, theFuture has his story w/ the GReddy kit and a blown motor after 5 days!!!!

BOTTOM LINE . . . if tuning this vehicle's motor for F.I. is so sensitive, that it leaves VERY LITTLE room for error, then this vehicle is not meant for a bolt-on F.I. kit. I don't believe everyone who keeps saying that the key is TUNING! If the engine detonated, then it wasn't tuned correctly . . . NO $HIT! But if the engine is so close to detonating after installing ANY kit's engine management and fuel management system, then either the engine/fuel management is poorly engineered, or the engine just shouldn't be blown (or the kit was installed my a monkey). . . Come on, it has a 10.3:1 compression ratio . . . not a good design for F.I. I'm not saying it can't be done. . . but I sure as hel* am not buying yet.

 

Never mind what I said about theFuture . . . that was all B.S. as I and many suspected. He admits it.

Whoever started that thread as "theFuture" is, as Dennis Leary sings, an A$$HOLE, an A$$HOLE, . . . . He's an A$$HOLE A---SS---HO---LE!!!!

 

I CONCUR!!! All that thread did was give people a bad impression of Greddy.

 

It is wrong to say that an engine management/fuel management system is poorly engineered if it is so close to detonating. A poor engineering design has nothing to do with this. It’s the lack of education and the lack of understanding on the customer’s behalf that causes these management systems to not function correctly (OR the tuner.) When dealing with tuning, the key to making HP is to be on the limits of detonation without actually detonating. Being on the limits is common and realistically practical when trying to make HP out of an engine. Most of the famous tuners will tell you the exact same thing.

You can always resort to a more conservative tune, which will overall make everything safer on the engine. Because a system runs on the limits of detonation that does not mean it does not work properly, to me it sounds like an aggressive tune to make peak HP.

 

ForceInduction, how did the Vortech install go on the 5AT 350z that you posted pictures of a couple weeks back?

--Steve

 

Pretty well, it made 304 at the wheels. Since it was an automatic, Vortech actually had to use the 6speed manual tuning for it, which works well so far.

 

Interesting. I'd love to know the A/F ratios. My guess is that they are on the rich side.

I'll probably post more about this in another thread soon once I've had time to gather more data, but it's interesting to point out that the Vortech programming of the piggyback A/F and timing computer did not match my car's ECU very well. Right after install it was way too rich to the point of stalling at idle. I'm guessing that is was caused by differences in my car's ECU and the R&D car. The R&D car was a 2003 350z and mine is a 2004 G35 Sedan.

I was extremely fortunate (LUCKY!!) that the tuner had used the piggyback computer with other supercharger installs (the Paxton Viper kit) and had the software necessary to dial it in properly.

--Steve

 

True, true. It all depends on your goals, what you're willing to risk for greater HP and torque. What I'm saying is that if a customer properly installs a kit, with preprogrammed emanage, like GReddy, and the engine blows . . . then something isn't right . . . the install, the kit design, or the engine just isn't meant to have F.I.

One ought to be able to install the kit, and not think twice about there even being a remote possibility of detonation, assuming he/she doesn't alter the kit for greater boost, etc.

 

I'm holding out. Want to read about daily reliability, reasonable power gains, and hopefully cost will come down. I'm not dropping $5K-$10K into the Z when I can trade in for Z06 and have more power to start out with. Heck, a used Viper would even be an option. Anyway, on the roads I enjoy the Z on (www.tailofthedragon.com), you can't put down a ton of HP. Will spend $$$ on brakes and suspension first.

 

I have not probed on the root causes of the blown engines reported in this forum but it sounds to me from this statement that it is the tuner who deviates from the manufacturer's intended level of performance/application that is to blame for the failure; i.e. cranking up the boost and pairing it with an ecu developed for lower psi?

If this is the case, then is it safe to conclude that given proper installation and careful tuning with the FI manufacturer's support one can then expect a reliable FI car?

I'm just trying to figure out on who's to blame for all these FI-related issues. Unless someone spells it out for me on this thread I'm on my own to use the friendly search engine.

This is my concern. Doing everything according to the book and end up with a toasted engine.

 

Installing an aftermarket F1 and pushing your engine to the limit is a risk. Proper installation, tuning, and other precautionary measures will simply improve your odds; but still a risk, none the less. The weakest link, should one exist will break, no matter what the precautionary measures may be.

I don’t know why it is so difficult for people to understand and accept that fact. Obviously, it is silly to believe a manufacturer when claims of their F1 being absolutely safe.

The only guarantee of safety you have, if the manufacturer of the F1 unit offers you an unconditional warranty for your engine and drive train.

G

 

Over the years, there have been many aftermarket Forced induction kits designed and installed on vehicles with factory naturally-aspirated engines. Vortech, a leading manufacturer of centrifugal supercharging kits, has made a career out of designing and selling these kits. Vortech's stated goal is to produce bolt-on kits with O.E. quality and reliability. With very few exceptions, such kits have functioned very well, with limited trouble, and excellent durability.

ATI, a newer manufacturer to the market, makes quite excellent quality centrifugal superchargers, and their kits almost always contain an air-to-air intercooler. However, most concerns that people have w/ going F.I. w/ the Z, are the multiple reports of blown engines by owners of the ATI Procharger kit for the 350Z. If you do some research on this site, you will get varying reports of who is at blame. My opinion is that the ATI kit is flawed. It is my opinion that even when the ATI kit is installed on an otherwise completely stock vehicle, the risk of detonation is too high, secondary to a progressive advancement of ignition timing as RPM increases by the stock 350Z ECU. This timing advancement is great for HP production from the stock naturally-aspirated engine. However, under F.I, this same timing advancement spells BOOM.

Most reputable tuners will tell you that timing retardation of some kind is essential for a F.I. kit for the 350Z. Without it, as you approach the stock redline of 6500 RPM, you a really chancing detonation w/ the stock 10.3:1 compression, regardless of how rich you make the A/F mix or how cool you can get the intake charge. The stock timing advance just makes the risk of detonation too great w/ F.I. The ATI kit does not have any form of timing retard. The Vortech kit does. The GReddy TT kit does. Every custom F.I system posted on this site does. So who do you think is right? ATI or everyone else?

 

I totally agree with MSGARRETT.

I think the upper RPM timing adjustment is critical. I wish more
people would install the Vortech so we can see if this is true in the real world. Unfortunately, I won't be one of those people!

I need to save some cash, but even if I had it right now, I wouldn't spend it because I want to know, for sure, that I'm not
gonna have to drop 5-6k on an FI system, and then 3-6k to rebuild my engine.

 

Some say that the Greddy kit doesn't have timing control.

 

Sorry, I'm not trying to single anybody out, but this is a good example of how people are approaching FI on the z, and to be blunt, this is wrong. Doing it "by the book" means getting it tuned, and tuned properly .

There is no such thing as a one-size-fits-all tune that will be reliable and safe for your FI car. Maybe people are being misled by the manufacturers of these kits, but it is not just a matter of bolting it on. Tuning is the most important part of a FI installation. Sure, you might get lucky with a pre-programmed solution...but I'm telling you, the risks are high when you depend on that solution.

 

It is my opinion that even when the ATI kit is installed on an otherwise completely stock vehicle, the risk of detonation is too high, secondary to a progressive advancement of ignition timing as RPM increases by the stock 350Z ECU.


I agree that there is a trend to lean on the unit, which I have on my G35 6mt. After doing the base installation and a dyno tune, I subsequently did modifications to the exhaust, and these caused a further leaning out of the air fuel mix. A dyno tune and reset of the mix to richen it down to about 11.5 to 1 followed each mod. Failure to have done so could have resulted in detonation at high rpms. When the last mod was done, I took the car down to TS and got the ECU reprogrammed to take a couple of degrees off the timing at the high end as recommended by the tuner. I have 3000 trouble free miles on the unit and third gear dyno returns of 307 torque and 347 rwhp at 6000rpm.....before the ECU reflash. The actual hp is of course greater, especially above 6000, but I do not "live" up there with the motor so the tuning was cautious. It has been running very sweet, with mix at 11.5 to 1 across the midrange and 11.8 in the high range. Gas mileage sucks of course, but no BOOM. Not yet anyway.

 

Cool deal, you're taking the logical approach to this. Looks like even with the "conservative" tune, you're still getting some very good numbers at only 6k rpm.

Why do you say gas mileage sucks? It shouldn't be guzzling any more (ok, negligible amounts) gas during normal driving. Of course, having that kind of power and a certain comfort level that the engine won't fail would lead to more excessive use of the go pedal...bringing your average down big time

Whenever I run a tank through without too much boosting, I still get the same exact gas mileage I did without the SC.

 

I think you are forgetting that a lot of people who buy these kits may not have the ability to keep it tuned on the edge ALL the time. If you are tuned on the edge and get weather changes you could shift into the danger zone easily. The majority have to keep it in the safe zone where it will not blow-up regardless of outside variables.( aka... a reliable daily driver )