jerryd87

iTrader: (4)

the tech actually changes ALOT especially with different materials and casting method. dont believe me try to run a cast iron chevy on 92 with 11:1 compression =D you will develop excellent windows thats for sure.

like i said domestic guys are a poor source, i bet you $100 i can get a extra 50+ hp from those engines running pure meth, in fact i can provide you a 6 second 1700 hp 2L that runs pure meth(general motors ecotec race program) i used to be a domestic guy so i know how hard it is to change there mind. i can also provide you about 3 dozen of them that i personally know who wont run a turbo (and this is an exact quote from a a couple of them but they all believe it the ones i know personally) "the same size super charger will make more power"

the extra power from IAT is minimal, a 50 degree temp drop at 45 psi boost only increases your actual density ratio about .1. HOWEVER when you add a 120 octane fuel there is a major benefit and that is where you get most of your power, and also why its recommended to run 15%

it contains less power per molecule however it also requires more to burn properly so in the end the only thing that is affected is how much you consume, you will have the same total power potential since your running more. if you need 1000 cc of fuel and want to run 15% meth, it has double the fuel requirements of gasoline then the amount you want to replace is 150cc. Now since you need double the amount you will actually run 300 cc of meth for a total of 1150 cc of fuel, if you simply run 850 cc of gas and 150 cc of meth your running lean and of course will det, just like you will with any fuel.

ill be going to the dyno again soon ill try and get a temp prob for my exhaust but i think the biggest benefit will be power, boost, timing comparisons with a slight allocation for different environments as well the fact your going to flow more at a lower boost due to bigger turbo. just got my new spark plug in today(went back to two step colders and one was damaged so i had to order another) so ill work on tuning the fuel better(perfect) this weekend.

im not looking for 1000 hp but i honestly dont think you will hit it on water + pump, plus i honestly cant justify spending $35 a gallon on race gas(q16, c16, 110, and 100 are all the same price here its retarded) so will have to be pump to pump.

water isnt really increasing octane since it has no octane, also remember lowering exhaust and combustion temps increases spool time =P

jerryd87

iTrader: (4)

i think your trying to break it down one item at a time which is what is leading to your conclusions, which we must remember its everything togeather.

we would have to know the exact amount water reduces temps. spark plugs per ngk ae 100 degrees C per step colder so we have that and its pretty significant. you also must remember that you have to factor time into it as well since the water will only be absorbing heat 25% of the time(power stroke) it must work 4 times harder since the spark plug is constantly pulling heat out. by using a two step colder plug, water would in theory have to draw 800 degrees C out of the chamber to match it, no small number and i imagine you are going to have to run quite a bit more then your expecting based on this. now you also must figure in the colder intake temp is also going to result in a lower combustion temp(is there even math to predict this?) however a very minor change. now figure in the fact that your fuel has a 5% greater resistance to detonation(running 15% pure meth) and your looking at something pretty major.

running the colder plugs with water could lead to misfire issues but not impossible. some other things i know im forgetting but im tired so ill think on it more tomarrow.

i can tell you this, NRE dosnt run water at all and is making 1600 hp small blocks, using race gas as a secondary injection essentially doing the same thing as the meth injection, more race gas to compensate for the lower octane and no temp reduction.

also have to consider cylinder pressures as well but ill have to think how each will be effected.

i will fully admit to you though is most of my experience is real world application and not the actual science(which we all know sometimes just dosnt work the way it theoretically should) my actual science thing is software dev haha, cars are just what i prefer.

Resmarted

iTrader: (2)

I agree that sometimes things don't work as they should, and water injection is much more difficult to setup than meth which you just slap on and re-tune basically and get a bunch of power, so basically i've been on the road learning this by the book trying to figure out what EXACTLY is the correct way to do this and then try to apply it and see what happens

EDIT god that red is obnoxious. lol

Resmarted

iTrader: (2)

No issues on not running race gas, im broke

I honestly have no idea how much I will make on pure water and pump. In theory I should be able to make that 1khp, but we'll see.

well it depends on how you define octane. MON AKI etc water will help absorb the detonating/pre ignition heat, and kind of act as a heat filter until the spark kicks in. And remember leaded race fuels? tetraethyl lead is added into fuel, then when the fuel com-busts it forms lead and lead oxide, simply to slow down and cool combustion. MBTE on the other hand basically provides more oxygen to reduce CO's and make more CO2's which means more power.
So that's oddly similar to water (lead) and meth (mbte), because water cools/slows down combustion (by literally dividing up benzene molecules in a way) and acting as a heat sink, and meth increases oxygen levels via lower iats and a bit of oxygen in it's molecule ALMOST like mbte (very close but not quite the same). MBTE is found in c16 and is what oxygenates the fuel.

And decreased velocities does increase spool time, but you know what decreases it? Burning slower/retarding your timing before boost. Runs crappier but decreases spool... some rb20 guys swear by retarding the **** out of their engines before boost, and they need DAYS to spool a turbo.
The idea to tuning water injection is to spray just enough to get your egt's in a safe/ideal level, so it really shouldn't hurt much.

binder

iTrader: (8)

That's strange. Every car I've tuned spooled faster with more timing in the midrange. Mine spooled over 500rpms sooner by optimizing timing in the midrange. I've never heard any of my DSM friends retarding timing to get more spool.

also, c16 does not contain mtbe. q16 contains mtbe which is why Injector dynamics says you can't use q16. The mtbe in it causes the injectors to swell. ID says c16 is ok to use so it can't contain mtbe nor to I ever remember seeing the warning on any of my c16 jugs like there was on the U4 and U4.2. Maine does not allow fuels with MTBE to be sold and they allow vp to sell c16 but not q16. I can't find it on the vp website and I don't use c16 anymore so I have no drums to check.

jerryd87

iTrader: (4)

how do you figure the change in octane isnt linear, you take 85% of 92 octane and 15% 120 octane and the result is 96.2 octane, now because im not running a controller and just a switch i have to be careful due to mix plus im running about 17% meth so in actuality at peak boost im running 97.76 octane, at 15 psi boost im running about ~105 octane due to more meth and less fuel since its not progressive and just full one. for the lower boost i can have more spark enabling faster spool and more mid-low end.

misfires can be alot of things, i misfire from too much fuel, you can also misfire from too little, spark gap being incorrect, or the temp inside the combustion chamber being too low. the reason that running too much water actually increases temps is because in effect you are slowing the flame front and retarding the timing since the fuel mixture will take longer to ignite. as i said not impossible but you are going to have to run a smaller gap, with our combustion chambers shouldnt have too much issues with swirl introducing fuel to the gap but i know alot of us fi guys are already running pretty small.

now ill fully admit i dont honestly think your going to cool effectively with just a sparkplug change but the point i was making is the combination of systems is what makes it superior. colder plug is going to continue to pull heat the entire time, even when its not firing, colder initial temp will result in a colder post ignition temp so pulling heat out when the engine isnt firing is just as important as during ignition. if you can get the same total cooling it shouldnt matter. water will be quicker, but why not use all available time and simply use a fuel instead of something that dosnt burn?

i will fully agree with you water is by far safer, but when the tech guys that build the systems and invest hundreds of thousands of dollars into testing which none of us can and say "yes pure alcohol is better" i tend to believe them more then a couple guys saying "yah i run water its better cuz i say so and make alot of power" 1700 hp isnt really impressive when you think about it considering guys have been making 2k+ on 402 based lsx engines for awhile now, some without water or meth.

on your calculation did you factor in for steam? water takes up far more room as a vapor vs liquid, and even when not in a combustion phase the temp is actually still high enough in the chamber to begin the phase change. the only thing that actually stops the aluminum pistons from melting is actually the liquids that are injected.

jerryd87

iTrader: (4)

det would be my only worry, our combustion chambers and pistons are honestly smooth as silk vs most so pre ignition means you have a air bubble in the cooling system and def no good.

the theory on retarded timing however is a separate issue, what they are discussing allows the timing to be retarded enough so that the mix is still burning a bit when it leaves the combustion chamber. not exactly safe for the turbo.

reasoning i dont think you will hit it on water+ pump is because i had issues FAR below that with a lower compression ratio running partial meth. even dropping temps down your still going to run into issues of the water can only absorb so much heat, and thats pretty much all it does so your going to hit a limit, but its also using up power. i would rather run a slightly higher temp without using any power resulting in more total power but ill post some example numbers later. got some stuff today at work for the orphanage my battalion sponsors, they are visiting from japan till next week.

Resmarted

iTrader: (2)

When the water turns into steam you WANT more volume, that's literally on the power stroke, and you dont convert all the water to steam, which is what helps cool the exhaust and heads.

It's a non linear change for percentages likely because of entropy. You should read the first article i posted.
As you can see it's not as simple as adding more fuel and retuning. Which is why meth is "better". Ill be honest i bet i can go further on water injection than pure meth. You ran into issues because that fuel mixture is a much lower octane and has inferior combustion cooling properties.
Give me some physics behind running 100% meth and explain why its the best. Because it drops aits? And increases octane by percentage?
Like ive explained before water doesnt work like that and allows the carnot cycle to be more efficient. In fact some of the fuel saver freaks add WI to run
afrs 20-1. Does that make the cooling properties a bit more clear? No liquid known to man can absorb as much energy as water. It's practically magic. In fact that's the reason we're primarily made of water; evolution chose the beings made of water for it's ability to retain heat and resist getting essentially boiled off.
I love the discussion of this topic, but quoting what big name shops run is nothing compared to physics. Running straight alcohol works like a charm but injecting it will still limit you to how much gasoline you run. Unless you inject a crap ton of meth, for the same % of fuel removed water can take you further. Ive never heard of people injecting more than 20% maybe a case of 30%, which i wouldnt do. That's why the common guesture is to run 50/50 water meth; water's doing a ton of work in the combustion chamber while meth is cooling down the intake charge.
Ps i think youd get more out of your meth injection if you sprayed long before the runners. Id be surprised if you got ideal atomization and max cooling that quickly

Resmarted

iTrader: (2)

But yes the idea of retarding timing for turbo spool is to burn outsise the valve. Is it bad for the turbo? Will it ruin your manifolds/valves? Idc, i was simply stating a delayed burn in fact does spool turbos more quickly.

And c16/q16. A small mistake at 3am. Im ok with that

jerryd87

iTrader: (4)

a delayed burn yes but you would have to look to see if your delaying the burn or simply lowering the temp. from what your saying your just looking for lower temp, if you try and pull alot of timing you are going to counteract anything you do with water injection since the temp is going to shoot back up plus your going to make less power to boot from so little timing. the issue with steam i was bringing up is that the chamber is going to be hot enough to start turning the water to steam before ignition, its going to be hot enough that it is already happening on the compression stroke which you definitely do not want. heres nothing really there to cool the chamber outside the head and spark plug until liquid is injected so your going to get steam before ignition and cause less mass to be in the cylinder. essentially lowering your volume. in a liquid form this may only be a 6% difference but its undoubtably quite a bit higher in actuality since its already turning to steam while the intake valve is still open.

i read the excerpt you posted not the full article though, not sure what you ment with a lower octane, the only issues i have ran into where because of the limit of the fuel or running too rich, running mostly water i saw very minimal gains, not even worth the cost of the system imo.

its better for the same reason race gas it better, but its not a % it varys with how much your injecting and the base fuel. both fuels have a set octane rating, at 15 psi like i said im running a 105 octane mix because the amount i inject is a set amount, the meth dosnt increase in volume but gas does, so at 26 psi im about 97 octane, it does indeed drop IAT temps, far more then your thinking, with my direct port setup now i watched them ice the intake on the dyno, from 117 degree intake temps post intercooler but before the meth, however that is very minor vs the octane increase, on top of that the fuel itself contains oxygen.

so in essence water gets you det resistance in the form of cooler combustion chamber temps, at the cost of lower ve since it is neither usable oxygen nor fuel even if this is only a 1% reduction its a reduction and will require more boost to compensate cant fight that.

vs methanol gives det resistance in the form of higher octane, more det resistance in the form of a cooler incoming charge which will result in a cooler post ignition temp granted not even close to what water does(this is why people say meth burns cooler then gas), more dense air from cooler air charge, and more air volume from the fuel itself breaking down.

water does one thing and it does it very well, meth does several things ok, they just add up to be slightly better(as i said before typically 4-8% better according to the experts who get paid to do nothing more then test these theories we discuss) now if methanol say dint do one of those things such as wasnt oxygenated or dint lower intake temps i would agree water is better but its a strength in numbers thing, it simply does more. the reason i quoted NRE is because i dont know of a single shop(i imagine some are out there though) that runs pure water, even mallet ran pure meth on there 1700 hp bull run corvette zr1(i know because i was at there shop filling out a application when they where going over the system, it was in there shop about 8 months before it went on sale)

now on my setup in particular i know theres more cooling to be had if it where in the runners longer but unfortunately thats as close to the plenum as i can get, gives me a little over a foot before it hits the chambers, the nozzles help atomization though anything that is left on the table is very minor. like i said i watched the intake ice on a 85 degree day with intake temps of 117. not to mention most of my power is going to be coming from octane, the only reason i dont just dumb the alcohol into the tank is its cheaper. i dont run in boost all the time so no need to run a really expensive fuel that most of the time currently i dont need. essentially im running a dual injector setup, my second set of injectors are simply nozzles with no actuation lol.

Resmarted

iTrader: (2)

Water delays and slows the burn. The h2o molecules physically seperate the gasoline molecules and slow burn down significantly. Just like lead it isn't an oxygenator nor a fuel. We all know how awesome leaded fuels run. The difference here is the mixing and tuning is much more complicated. Water drop for drop is a far stronger octane booster than meth, when added to gasoline. Gasoline and water dont mix which is why its an issue if you have water in your tank.

Beyond this explanation ill just be repeating myself. If you understand the carnot cycle and the relationships between temperature, pressure, and volume you'll see where the beauty of pure water injection lives

jerryd87

iTrader: (4)

i dont doubt at all water helps, nor that it suppresses detonation very well and better then meth its just the combination of everything togeather. in the end i see it like this, a engine is essentially a converter it converts heat energy into kinetic energy. alot of which is wasted, by giving something else a ability to absorb the heat you are decreasing its efficiency.

i understand the carnot cycle its the primary theory on how steam engines where developed but theres not much power generated from this. the expansion of water from this cycle will mayby be 1% of gasoline combusting can do. we had a stanley steamer when i was at school for collision repair. it had a modified engine, inline 4 4L thing was monstrous. not sure what the torque on it was but it barely made any power, about 24 hp and a top speed of 42 mph........ the thermal efficiency of a engine using steam is about 7% vs a internal combustion engine in the 30% range, add water to a internal combustion engine and your just dropping efficiency and what it can do.

ive also seen many of those 1700 hp engines you speak of online, not personally but online, what i HAVE however seen are those same engine build to a T on other cars.......... running meth....................... making over 2000 hp and running 6's

like i said before go for it but i think your seriously going to be disappointed, just go talk to some guys on the meth forums, posting a question of what is better is like posting what turbo kit to use here they will flame you endlessly that its been covered a million times, meth is better, and they dont recommend pure meth for legal reasons.

hell the turbo mustang forums theres a dude who custom built a quick spool system for his turbo using meth, and outspooled his exact same system running a 50 shot of nitrous to spool it(iirc i would have to look but i believe it was a 402 running a 91mm pro mod turbo no idea on manufacturer though.) for advanced discussions like this i find the absolute best place to discuss it and actually have the science broken down if you want it is actual forums dedicated to it(forums that only cover meth and water injection like what the manufacturers provide.) or turbo mustangs, the **** they discuss makes me O.o and i understand ALOT of ****.

domestics are great for making some crazy **** but they arnt very adventurous and in most cases are a poor place to look for anything except old school methods. thats why most of them make half the power per cubic inch we do.

DaveJackson

iTrader: (5)

This is a tl;dr for me right now, but I intend to get into it over the next few days.
My initial perception is that you (resmarted) are overly in love with water as a coolant based on limited cases where it is a superior coolant. I don't think you can call it universal. Latent heat, Carnot and a few other things will be at play, here.
Looks like a he11 of a debate, though. I wish my job want so busy right now.

binder

iTrader: (8)

nbd, I don't use it anymore so I could have missed something if they changed c16.

About the spool, going from low timing to high timing I gained significant spool. I have on all the turbo systems I've tuned. Based on that I'm still confused how the low timing is more spool when I personally see the opposite. I'll have to look it up more online and maybe talk to some of the high hp guys around here. The tuner from the local shop here (craven motorsports) told me I'm barely running half the timing I should to make gains from the e85 fuel i'm running. He told me I would gain in spool and hp by increasing it. This is a guy with a personal 1500hp challenger and daily does acr vettes and domestics with e85, turbo and nitrous injections (all on the same cars) so I trust the experience he has with tuning.


join the crowd. I can't keep up with the reading in this thread.

str8dum1

iTrader: (11)

retarded timing = antilag. you wouldnt do that during acceleration. faster spool does not always equal more power under the curve. torque takes a **** with low timing. who cares if you make 5 psi sooner....

Resmarted

iTrader: (2)

+100
Was just addressing the misconception that water would hurt spool etc.

It's all about the torque curve. How long your engine lasts, when you get traction, how you drive the car, what gears you pull in lol everything is all about that torque curve.

smoother the better.

I'd take 550 smooth any day over a 600+ spike at like 4 grand.

But back to main topic, comparing drag cars that run 100% alcohol is completely unfair to compare to gasoline+injection systems. FFS they usually don't even have wastegates on their hot sides. When your car runs no intercooler, and has a wastgate on the INTAKE side (that's you titan motorsports etc) you can GTFO. LOL completely different class of car. I'm only talking about cars that use gasoline in their tanks and injections systems.

binder

iTrader: (8)

I'm slow at reading the first page but I have just a couple comments.

The comment about setting it up correct means not risk of a failure. Not true. The fail safes are about clogged nozzles or pump issues but it won't always detect a leak. If the line gets pinched and is leaking the pump will see that the water or meth is flowing just fine but it doesn't know if it's flowing into the engine bay or into the intake runners. No matter how well it's installed or how elaborate the equipment is there is always a chance for a failure. If there wasn't then race teams with million dollar budgets would never have engine failures or engine fires from a fuel problem. The only way to prevent something from failing is to not add it to the car. Same with any and all parts not just injection stuff.

I like the plane stuff since I'm a pilot. The downfall for that article when using it to argue against meth is meth wasn't tested in that article. It only made mention of it in the beginning. The entire article was just testing for water which nobody here is arguing water injection does what it does. The research was done in 1942. That's way too old of research to ever use in an argument. Hell, when discussing procedures for use in medicine any research over 3 years old is considered ancient. I would assume there has been quite a huge leap in fuel type and research performed in the last 70 years. Also, take note that the reason they needed water injection for cooling in those engines is due to the fact that they were air cooled. They ran either 100 or 130 octane avgas so octane was never a factor to worry about. I know the research used 80 octane but that wasn't the fuel used in the planes for actual flight. So in their instance water injection is cheap, readily available, and octane wasn't needed to gain performance.

The gain of 150hp by adding water is only about a 6% increase in power. So if you hit 600hp on pump gas alone and then inject the huge amounts of water they were using (enough to show 30% dilution of the oil in the crankcase) you would gain about 36hp if you get the same gains they noticed with water injection.

I'm going to have to get in our research database this weekend when I'm in the lab and see if I can find any research performed on methanol injection. The ultimate would be to find research comparing the two fuels. I'm sure it would have to be performed with all the advances in racing engines. 70 year old research really doesn't hold a lot of weight. I have medical research showing the best thing for dyslexia is a lobotomy. That's only about 40 year old research so if we never looked at more recent literature then a considerable about of people we lobotomized just because they have a reading disability. Research is disproved all the time. That water research won't be disproved because it does what it does but nowhere does it compare itself to any other types of injection to see the effectiveness on a comparison basis.

Resmarted

iTrader: (2)

I'm not sure I agree with your points.
Physics is physics. Engines are really neat heat pumps regardless of how old they are. Hell the non overhead cam engines of old are still being used today... The Carnot cycle has NOT changed a SINGLE bit since it's introduction.

With the fail safe, they have post and pre detection. They will measure flow vs injector rate, pressure, etc. If you setup the map to be very tight, any variation in pressure in the line will trigger a safety map. A leak will definitely cause that just as much as a clog or empty tank. In fact the AEM info video covers the leak alarm.


I'd love to see any data you can find!

But I believe water *injection* is the absolute best thing you can add to (Pump) gasoline to improve the *absolute max* power you can make on a big hp, big turbo setup. Simply put it matches the issues you encounter when running big hp on pump gas so very very well, and lines up with the principles of the carnot cycle very well.

I'm definitely going to be testing my theory myself. Need more time and money for that though!

binder

iTrader: (8)

The research is old and only designed for a specific application. Air-cooled engine with 130 octane fuel. Their goals are vastly different than your goals with a modern cooled engine. Even if that applied directly to your engine with 93 octane the gains they made were very minimal. The research only tested it for climb out and high load situations for detonation prevention not for total power increase. It also in no way compares it to any other injection system or fuel so it doesn't prove that it is better or worse than any other injection type. Since methanol wasn't being used an an injection system (no reason to since they have 130 octane already) they wouldn't do any research on it. Now modern day with low octane fuels for cars there is a need to increase octane for power gain so I assume further investigation and research has been performed. There has to be a strong reason people would spend money on methanol injection with all these diesel engines and drag cars. They wouldn't add the fire hazard and cost if water was all they needed.

Multi million dollar teams use methanol injection in their street class vehicles when they could use water...why would they do that? You commented to rich that you can't compare race cars to this but about 10 posts ago you were bragging about the 1 or 2 drag cars with 1700hp and pure water injection. Wouldn't that be the same argument?

Resmarted

iTrader: (2)

Like I just stated those cars run gasoline. Some run race gas yes, but others do run pump. Pure alcohol is a completely different game. And back to my other point you're basing the fueling off of gasoline. 15 to even lets say 35 % of your fuel as meth injection is completely asinine and anyone who ran that would be completely insane in my book.

Multi million dollar racing teams also have regulations to follow and get paid to run xxx parts. Not sure if I trust anything with corporate backing as we see in racing as a viable source of information. Hell nascar finally switched to EFI and people ***** about that. All that stuff at the end of the day is kind of horse sh*t. I believe what individual/weekend guys find more-so tbh (most of the time people posting what they found on forums isn't a corporate hose down job).

There was a point in our time that everyone believed the world was flat, and one man believed the world was round. We also at one point argued whether dark matter existed or not. Now we can prove it.

See where I'm going with this? I've got enough data and examples to make me believe that water is better, it's just far more misunderstood than people can even imagine.

Beyond that, if it works like a charm with race gas, why wouldn't it work well with pump gas? Can you explain that to me?
Pump is drastically different than race gas, but if water takes RACE gas to a NEW level, why couldn't it do the same to pump? Is there some chemical reaction I'm missing here? Or is the same formula of pump as much air and fuel into the cylinders without knocking or overheating not applicable anymore?