Awesome Water Injection Calculator
07-27-2012, 06:30 AM
#41
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here is a nice comparison of e85 verses meth/h2o injection. For the same timing water/meth just fell short of e85 on top but after the fact they were able to run 5* more timing with e85 than with water/meth injection. They also comment about running more timing with 75% or 100% meth to get up to the same area that e85 is with timing. Also, it was e80 and not e85 when he tested it. So less alcohol percentage slightly.
http://forums.corral.net/forums/supe...injection.html
it doesn't compare back to back 50/50, 75/25, 100% meth verses 100% h2o. Maybe someone with a dyno can do those mixtures and show which can push the furthest. I'm still looking for actual research though and not just a single shop experience.
http://forums.corral.net/forums/supe...injection.html
it doesn't compare back to back 50/50, 75/25, 100% meth verses 100% h2o. Maybe someone with a dyno can do those mixtures and show which can push the furthest. I'm still looking for actual research though and not just a single shop experience.
Last edited by binder; 07-27-2012 at 06:32 AM.
07-27-2012, 06:37 AM
#42
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Beyond that, if it works like a charm with race gas, why wouldn't it work well with pump gas? Can you explain that to me?
Pump is drastically different than race gas, but if water takes RACE gas to a NEW level, why couldn't it do the same to pump? Is there some chemical reaction I'm missing here? Or is the same formula of pump as much air and fuel into the cylinders without knocking or overheating not applicable anymore?
You're missing the fact of OCTANE. If you have 116 octane already there is no reason to use meth to raise octane. So those already with race gas would be more inclined to use only water since they already have all the octane. Pumpgas is lacking octane so using methanol increases that octane. Pumpgas users have a HUGE reason to run an additional fuel. How can that be dismissed? Primary fuel octane is a huge factor in what you will use for an injection system.
07-27-2012, 07:36 AM
#43
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Water/Methanol Injection- Power vs. Methanol Concentration
By Matt Snow
Water injection has been used for years in diesels primarily in competition. Benefits include increased charge air density, reduced combustion temps and cooler exhaust gas temps.
Although water is typically used as an intercooler between stages of compounded turbochargers to cool the air charge, the addition of methanol brings a fuel/combustion effect into the system. There is considerable research showing the effects of water and methanol on diesel combustion. The data focuses on heat release and combustion pressure (power), emissions (especially NOx-nitrogen oxides, and PM – particulate matter or “soot”), fuel efficiency (brake specific fuel consumption - BSFC), engine cooling, and the impact on lubricant quality. A quick look at the recent data on power production reveals some interesting points:
1. Injected water slows combustion thus delaying effective peak cylinder pressure.
2. Injected methanol slows combustion if cylinder temps are too low, but increases the combustion rate when cylinder temps are high.
These facts would indicate that to inject water and methanol before normal operating temperatures or at too low a boost level will not result in maximal power increases unless injection timing is advanced to compensate for the ignition delay. After normal operating temperature is reached at high boost (over 15psig) and high load conditions (>86% full), Methanol speeds-up the timing event while water conditions combustion by slowing it.
3. Water when combusted produces steam both at the start of injection and during the power stroke. This increases combustion pressure after peak pressure which effectively prolongs power production during the power stroke, "A calculation indicates that one can expect a 3-psi increase in mean effective pressure (assuming about 75psi IMEP)."1. One issue is that water will not convert to steam during peak combustion pressures. This indicates that the pressure/power effect of vaporization occurs only during the beginning of the compression stroke and the last half of the power stroke. "When water is injected between 85-30° BTC and therefore just prior to fuel injection results in a substantial increase in ignition delay, stronger effective cooling, and a substantial power increase." 1.
Whereas peak combustion pressure is increased only slightly, total work done in the power stroke is increased.
4. Methanol when combusted along with diesel contributes to power as evidenced by increased heat release and peak combustion pressures. Diesel fuel in combination with methanol seems to act as a catalyst to “light off” methanol as higher heat is needed for methanol combustion.
5. Methanol is an oxidizer as well as a fuel in that oxygen is donated to the combustion process increasing the fueling potential of a combination. This is of interest in combinations that are over fueled in an attempt to extract all the power out of the available oxygen.
As a side light, the research on diesel emissions and water injection reveals:
1. "The vaporization of water as well as a local increase in specific heat of the gas around the flame resulted in lower Nitrogen Oxide emissions (NOx) and soot formation rates." 2.
2. Both NOx and PM are decreased in low (20%) and med. (44%) load cases with water injection. Interestingly, at high load (86%) NOx is decreased as expected, but soot remains unchanged possible due to the late injection of fuel in the full power fueling strategy. Advancing the injection timing to compensate for the additional ignition delay
with water injection lowers soot output markedly.
3. Methanol offers potential for reduced emission of both NOx and particulate (PM) in compression ignition engines, especially when used as a replacement fuel (power output is kept constant through the reduction in diesel injection.).
4. Water injection increases both hydrocarbon (HC) and (CO) carbon monoxide emission slightly due to incomplete combustion caused by delayed ignition.
The research shows that in a diesel at normal operating temps, increasing the methanol concentration of a manifold water/methanol injection system will cause cylinder pressure to rise faster thus increasing the effective timing of the combustion event. This fact and increased peak cylinder pressure will result in increased power.
To test this, we used the Mustang chassis dyno at ATS Diesel Performance in Arvada, CO. A 1.227 correction factor was used to bring the data to standard as ATS is at approx 6000ft elevation.
The test vehicle was a 2004 Dodge Cummins Diesel 3500 dually with 9000 miles on the odometer. The only performance upgrade included an Edge EZ performance box set at level #4. Three concentrations of methanol/water were tested: approx. 33/67% ( windshield washer fluid, Wal-Mart , blue, -20°f ), 50/50% , and 75/25%. For a complete comparison, the dyno results for the stock truck are included along with the baseline dyno run with the Edge EZ.
A Stage-2 Diesel Boost Cooler® water/methanol injection system by Snow Performance was used with 375 and 625 ml/min nozzles with the pump set at 150psi. The HD Digital Variable Controller was set at 20psig onset and 30psig full. With this system, approx. 50% of full qty is injected at the onset setting gradually ramping up to 100% at the full setting. This minimizes combustion quench at lower boost levels and provides for maximum cooling/power at higher levels.
Two runs were made with each test condition to flag any problems. Between runs, a standard cool down time of 20 min was incorporated and temperature data was taken at various points in order to better relate the data. The following table demonstrates the results:
The results demonstrate the effect on power of increasing concentrations of methanol. It must be noted that the emissions friendly retarded injection timing of the stock ’04 Cummins and the fact that the Edge EZ doesn’t add appreciable timing,
allows the use of over 50% methanol. If starting higher than 16° advanced injection timing could result in “diesel knock” which puts high strain on various engine parts. Most with pre-2003 HPCR Cummins diesels should use 50% methanol maximum. In the future, the exhaust gas temp. reducing effects of varying concentrations of water/methanol will be demonstrated. Thanks much to Clint, Will, and Jake at ATS for making this article possible.
Sources:
ATS Performance Diesel
5291 Ward Road
Arvada, CO 80002
(800) 949-6002
www.atsdiesel.com
To view the dyno charts and results (i don't know how to get them here) go to www.snowperformance.net. Maybe someone can help me here!
This article in a book is hard to read but the section on using 100% water says the disadvantage to running 100% water is less power increase. 8% power increase on 100% water verses 20% power increase on 50/50 water/h2o. This is from snow performance on towing diesels. http://www.snowperformance.net/produ...cle-pdf-99.pdf
By Matt Snow
Water injection has been used for years in diesels primarily in competition. Benefits include increased charge air density, reduced combustion temps and cooler exhaust gas temps.
Although water is typically used as an intercooler between stages of compounded turbochargers to cool the air charge, the addition of methanol brings a fuel/combustion effect into the system. There is considerable research showing the effects of water and methanol on diesel combustion. The data focuses on heat release and combustion pressure (power), emissions (especially NOx-nitrogen oxides, and PM – particulate matter or “soot”), fuel efficiency (brake specific fuel consumption - BSFC), engine cooling, and the impact on lubricant quality. A quick look at the recent data on power production reveals some interesting points:
1. Injected water slows combustion thus delaying effective peak cylinder pressure.
2. Injected methanol slows combustion if cylinder temps are too low, but increases the combustion rate when cylinder temps are high.
These facts would indicate that to inject water and methanol before normal operating temperatures or at too low a boost level will not result in maximal power increases unless injection timing is advanced to compensate for the ignition delay. After normal operating temperature is reached at high boost (over 15psig) and high load conditions (>86% full), Methanol speeds-up the timing event while water conditions combustion by slowing it.
3. Water when combusted produces steam both at the start of injection and during the power stroke. This increases combustion pressure after peak pressure which effectively prolongs power production during the power stroke, "A calculation indicates that one can expect a 3-psi increase in mean effective pressure (assuming about 75psi IMEP)."1. One issue is that water will not convert to steam during peak combustion pressures. This indicates that the pressure/power effect of vaporization occurs only during the beginning of the compression stroke and the last half of the power stroke. "When water is injected between 85-30° BTC and therefore just prior to fuel injection results in a substantial increase in ignition delay, stronger effective cooling, and a substantial power increase." 1.
Whereas peak combustion pressure is increased only slightly, total work done in the power stroke is increased.
4. Methanol when combusted along with diesel contributes to power as evidenced by increased heat release and peak combustion pressures. Diesel fuel in combination with methanol seems to act as a catalyst to “light off” methanol as higher heat is needed for methanol combustion.
5. Methanol is an oxidizer as well as a fuel in that oxygen is donated to the combustion process increasing the fueling potential of a combination. This is of interest in combinations that are over fueled in an attempt to extract all the power out of the available oxygen.
As a side light, the research on diesel emissions and water injection reveals:
1. "The vaporization of water as well as a local increase in specific heat of the gas around the flame resulted in lower Nitrogen Oxide emissions (NOx) and soot formation rates." 2.
2. Both NOx and PM are decreased in low (20%) and med. (44%) load cases with water injection. Interestingly, at high load (86%) NOx is decreased as expected, but soot remains unchanged possible due to the late injection of fuel in the full power fueling strategy. Advancing the injection timing to compensate for the additional ignition delay
with water injection lowers soot output markedly.
3. Methanol offers potential for reduced emission of both NOx and particulate (PM) in compression ignition engines, especially when used as a replacement fuel (power output is kept constant through the reduction in diesel injection.).
4. Water injection increases both hydrocarbon (HC) and (CO) carbon monoxide emission slightly due to incomplete combustion caused by delayed ignition.
The research shows that in a diesel at normal operating temps, increasing the methanol concentration of a manifold water/methanol injection system will cause cylinder pressure to rise faster thus increasing the effective timing of the combustion event. This fact and increased peak cylinder pressure will result in increased power.
To test this, we used the Mustang chassis dyno at ATS Diesel Performance in Arvada, CO. A 1.227 correction factor was used to bring the data to standard as ATS is at approx 6000ft elevation.
The test vehicle was a 2004 Dodge Cummins Diesel 3500 dually with 9000 miles on the odometer. The only performance upgrade included an Edge EZ performance box set at level #4. Three concentrations of methanol/water were tested: approx. 33/67% ( windshield washer fluid, Wal-Mart , blue, -20°f ), 50/50% , and 75/25%. For a complete comparison, the dyno results for the stock truck are included along with the baseline dyno run with the Edge EZ.
A Stage-2 Diesel Boost Cooler® water/methanol injection system by Snow Performance was used with 375 and 625 ml/min nozzles with the pump set at 150psi. The HD Digital Variable Controller was set at 20psig onset and 30psig full. With this system, approx. 50% of full qty is injected at the onset setting gradually ramping up to 100% at the full setting. This minimizes combustion quench at lower boost levels and provides for maximum cooling/power at higher levels.
Two runs were made with each test condition to flag any problems. Between runs, a standard cool down time of 20 min was incorporated and temperature data was taken at various points in order to better relate the data. The following table demonstrates the results:
The results demonstrate the effect on power of increasing concentrations of methanol. It must be noted that the emissions friendly retarded injection timing of the stock ’04 Cummins and the fact that the Edge EZ doesn’t add appreciable timing,
allows the use of over 50% methanol. If starting higher than 16° advanced injection timing could result in “diesel knock” which puts high strain on various engine parts. Most with pre-2003 HPCR Cummins diesels should use 50% methanol maximum. In the future, the exhaust gas temp. reducing effects of varying concentrations of water/methanol will be demonstrated. Thanks much to Clint, Will, and Jake at ATS for making this article possible.
Sources:
ATS Performance Diesel
5291 Ward Road
Arvada, CO 80002
(800) 949-6002
www.atsdiesel.com
To view the dyno charts and results (i don't know how to get them here) go to www.snowperformance.net. Maybe someone can help me here!
This article in a book is hard to read but the section on using 100% water says the disadvantage to running 100% water is less power increase. 8% power increase on 100% water verses 20% power increase on 50/50 water/h2o. This is from snow performance on towing diesels. http://www.snowperformance.net/produ...cle-pdf-99.pdf
07-27-2012, 09:13 AM
#44
+100
Was just addressing the misconception that water would hurt spool etc.
It's all about the torque curve. How long your engine lasts, when you get traction, how you drive the car, what gears you pull in lol everything is all about that torque curve.
smoother the better.
I'd take 550 smooth any day over a 600+ spike at like 4 grand.
But back to main topic, comparing drag cars that run 100% alcohol is completely unfair to compare to gasoline+injection systems. FFS they usually don't even have wastegates on their hot sides. When your car runs no intercooler, and has a wastgate on the INTAKE side (that's you titan motorsports etc) you can GTFO. LOL completely different class of car. I'm only talking about cars that use gasoline in their tanks and injections systems.
Was just addressing the misconception that water would hurt spool etc.
It's all about the torque curve. How long your engine lasts, when you get traction, how you drive the car, what gears you pull in lol everything is all about that torque curve.
smoother the better.
I'd take 550 smooth any day over a 600+ spike at like 4 grand.
But back to main topic, comparing drag cars that run 100% alcohol is completely unfair to compare to gasoline+injection systems. FFS they usually don't even have wastegates on their hot sides. When your car runs no intercooler, and has a wastgate on the INTAKE side (that's you titan motorsports etc) you can GTFO. LOL completely different class of car. I'm only talking about cars that use gasoline in their tanks and injections systems.
you wouldnt deny race gas is better then water would you? thats essentially all i am doing is injecting a mixture of race gas and regular gas into the engine during boost when it needs it EXACTLY the same thing NRE does on its engines in a slightly different fashion(actual injectors vs just nozzles) as well as many other shops when they only need it in boost. difference? the c16 NRE injects has 3 less octane then i do, dosnt cool the intake charge, plus isnt oxygenated.
07-27-2012, 09:30 AM
#45
the problem is that the carnot cycle is how a STEAM engine works, not how a gas engine works, the gas engine has no re condensing of fuel, it uses 1 step of a 4 step cycle and that is the expansion of a hot gas. problem with trying to quote it? gasoline, methanol, and other burning fuels have 100 times or more energy then expanding steam power.
like i keep saying your trying to focus one 1 single aspect when there's hundreds involved. thats like a sniper taking wind speed into account but nothing else..............he is never going to hit his target doing that. engines are simple devices but maximum power from them is a very complex subject, they are sorta heat pumps, sorta air pumps, but they arnt exactly either at the same time because they dont work like a steam engine but they do, they also dont work like a compressor but they do.
for a steam engine you have to have all the carnot cycle to work, a gas engine does not, the point for a gas engine is maximum heat without destroying it but also maximum pressure, no matter what you say its not going to change how fuels work. water expands alot when converted to steam sure, but it dosnt expand close to as much as a burning fuel end result? your going to be lowering in chamber temps(which may or may not be a good thing more then likely good) but your reducing the cylinder volume regardless. you say 6%? well take that figure and imagine its probably double that at about 12%, because as soon as that charge enters the combustion chamber its going to start turning to steam, which is going to cause it to take up more volume. its not going to halt that process until the intake valve closes and the pressure starts to build resulting in a higher boiling and vaporizing point.
im due to go back to the dyno monday but honestly essentially what your saying is you can do better on pump gas and water then pump gas and race gas...............which has been disproved about a million times. like i said bro go check out turbo mustangs or the meth forums those are the best 2 places for a truly eye opening experience(more so turbo mustangs)
like binder said further research has definitely been done by the industry to produce better products and get more money from there competitors that research all says pure meth is better for maximum power, every company is however require to tell people not to because anything beyond 50/50 mix is considered a fuel and they dont want legal repercussions.
you might find a few guys running water and swearing by it but its small, and they are definitely not competitive, because like i said before while 1700 hp and 7-8 seconds might be impressive, its laughable when nearly the carbon copy setups are making over 2k hp and running 6's..................... that tells me that are simply unwilling to accept the facts and are the "my way or no way" type people which is actually about 95% of the domestic community. i worked with a dude who would guarantee call my car a slow pos despite the fact that it would outrun and out handle anything he has ever owned.
i dont understand why running 15% or more of meth as fuel is insane.................... whats wrong with that? because its flammable? uhhhh yah about that............. and you keep mentioning people washing cylinder walls but the fact of the matter if someone IS washing the walls they are ****ing stupid or had a injector problem. on the initial tune of my car after the direct port ive removed about 230 ccs of fuel and it was still pegged full rich, got misfires but no washing oil still looks good. the only time ive EVER heard of someone washing cylinder walls with ANY fuel is when something happens like the injector gets stuck open and its a simple fix.
pull plugs out, dump a tablespoon of atf down the cylinder and crank for about 30 seconds............. engine will fire right up no problem after that
finally the whole "outside the box" concept you introduced would be great if this was something new.................... but methanol injection has been around for a long time, tested endlessly and every new platform that comes out has this type of topic resulting in the meth outperforming. the fear of running high concentrations of meth was when people used engine boost to push it into the engine vs a electric pump, it got hot and would catch on fire in pure meth concentrations.
like i keep saying your trying to focus one 1 single aspect when there's hundreds involved. thats like a sniper taking wind speed into account but nothing else..............he is never going to hit his target doing that. engines are simple devices but maximum power from them is a very complex subject, they are sorta heat pumps, sorta air pumps, but they arnt exactly either at the same time because they dont work like a steam engine but they do, they also dont work like a compressor but they do.
for a steam engine you have to have all the carnot cycle to work, a gas engine does not, the point for a gas engine is maximum heat without destroying it but also maximum pressure, no matter what you say its not going to change how fuels work. water expands alot when converted to steam sure, but it dosnt expand close to as much as a burning fuel end result? your going to be lowering in chamber temps(which may or may not be a good thing more then likely good) but your reducing the cylinder volume regardless. you say 6%? well take that figure and imagine its probably double that at about 12%, because as soon as that charge enters the combustion chamber its going to start turning to steam, which is going to cause it to take up more volume. its not going to halt that process until the intake valve closes and the pressure starts to build resulting in a higher boiling and vaporizing point.
im due to go back to the dyno monday but honestly essentially what your saying is you can do better on pump gas and water then pump gas and race gas...............which has been disproved about a million times. like i said bro go check out turbo mustangs or the meth forums those are the best 2 places for a truly eye opening experience(more so turbo mustangs)
like binder said further research has definitely been done by the industry to produce better products and get more money from there competitors that research all says pure meth is better for maximum power, every company is however require to tell people not to because anything beyond 50/50 mix is considered a fuel and they dont want legal repercussions.
you might find a few guys running water and swearing by it but its small, and they are definitely not competitive, because like i said before while 1700 hp and 7-8 seconds might be impressive, its laughable when nearly the carbon copy setups are making over 2k hp and running 6's..................... that tells me that are simply unwilling to accept the facts and are the "my way or no way" type people which is actually about 95% of the domestic community. i worked with a dude who would guarantee call my car a slow pos despite the fact that it would outrun and out handle anything he has ever owned.
i dont understand why running 15% or more of meth as fuel is insane.................... whats wrong with that? because its flammable? uhhhh yah about that............. and you keep mentioning people washing cylinder walls but the fact of the matter if someone IS washing the walls they are ****ing stupid or had a injector problem. on the initial tune of my car after the direct port ive removed about 230 ccs of fuel and it was still pegged full rich, got misfires but no washing oil still looks good. the only time ive EVER heard of someone washing cylinder walls with ANY fuel is when something happens like the injector gets stuck open and its a simple fix.
pull plugs out, dump a tablespoon of atf down the cylinder and crank for about 30 seconds............. engine will fire right up no problem after that
finally the whole "outside the box" concept you introduced would be great if this was something new.................... but methanol injection has been around for a long time, tested endlessly and every new platform that comes out has this type of topic resulting in the meth outperforming. the fear of running high concentrations of meth was when people used engine boost to push it into the engine vs a electric pump, it got hot and would catch on fire in pure meth concentrations.
I'm not sure I agree with your points.
Physics is physics. Engines are really neat heat pumps regardless of how old they are. Hell the non overhead cam engines of old are still being used today... The Carnot cycle has NOT changed a SINGLE bit since it's introduction.
With the fail safe, they have post and pre detection. They will measure flow vs injector rate, pressure, etc. If you setup the map to be very tight, any variation in pressure in the line will trigger a safety map. A leak will definitely cause that just as much as a clog or empty tank. In fact the AEM info video covers the leak alarm.
I'd love to see any data you can find!
But I believe water *injection* is the absolute best thing you can add to (Pump) gasoline to improve the *absolute max* power you can make on a big hp, big turbo setup. Simply put it matches the issues you encounter when running big hp on pump gas so very very well, and lines up with the principles of the carnot cycle very well.
I'm definitely going to be testing my theory myself. Need more time and money for that though!
Physics is physics. Engines are really neat heat pumps regardless of how old they are. Hell the non overhead cam engines of old are still being used today... The Carnot cycle has NOT changed a SINGLE bit since it's introduction.
With the fail safe, they have post and pre detection. They will measure flow vs injector rate, pressure, etc. If you setup the map to be very tight, any variation in pressure in the line will trigger a safety map. A leak will definitely cause that just as much as a clog or empty tank. In fact the AEM info video covers the leak alarm.
I'd love to see any data you can find!
But I believe water *injection* is the absolute best thing you can add to (Pump) gasoline to improve the *absolute max* power you can make on a big hp, big turbo setup. Simply put it matches the issues you encounter when running big hp on pump gas so very very well, and lines up with the principles of the carnot cycle very well.
I'm definitely going to be testing my theory myself. Need more time and money for that though!
Last edited by jerryd87; 07-27-2012 at 10:06 AM.
07-28-2012, 01:21 AM
#46
Um jerry do you have any idea why running meth is bad?
A lot of alcohol drag cars have an un-presidented problem of water in their oil. I've seen cars that run a lot of meth have water in their oil. Not a lot, but to me that's just a sloppy way to run their car. And from what my local machinists say about running lots of meth, I'm just not interested. e85 is great, but I don't like the idea of alcohol for a few reasons, all of which I previously stated. Mainly I don't like using food for fuel. I frown upon any kind of support of this... but that's my own opinion.
And please remember back when water was being tested the military and gov funded research facilities had plenty of various kinds of alcohol to use, in great quality and quantity. I brought up the fact that it was originally used to keep the water from freezing, because frankly that's something people over look. And I don't understand your point about cars not needing more fueling being bs... If you build your car correctly and get the right sized injectors, fuel pump, and lines, you shouldn't need more fuel.
I personally would not feel comfortable running 40% meth. Yes because it burns. Especially because it burns invisible. That's some very very dangerous ****. There's a reason tracks don't allow meth injection... That's just unbelievably sketchy. 40% of the fuel needed for 1000hp is a lot. That much in a line catching on fire, is just a nightmare regardless that it's INVISIBLE. Yes you can do all sorts of things to keep it safe, but on a street car, I'd like to not have to worry about anything more than my fuel line.
And the washing thing, I've heard it from machinists, tuners, fellow car guys, people who've run it and regular bench racers. I don't know who more I need to hear it from. I think it should be ok if you run a bit of water in your mix to help clean things out, but even then I'm not fond of the idea at all.
Sorry jerry nothing you've posted has convinced me otherwise.
I didn't just come up with this opinion over night, I've spent the last 2-3 years reading about it, and studying about things similar in school. Heard the arguments you've made (not saying they're bad or invalid or anything like that) and still choose to invest time into pursuing water. I'm really putting my block on the line to test this (eventually). I've even come up with a set of parameters I want to data log and how exactly to ramp the car up to push the engine to it's max on water.
And yes the carnot cycle is well not really for a steam engine, precisely it's for a "perfect" heat engine, which is simply impossible. And having drawn up and data recorded some pretty simple 4 stroke engines for testing in school/fun, I understand that it's not exactly how a gas engine works. BUT, the alterations from ideal to real world are very simple and are easy to understand.
Meth has it's place, and it does work. But I believe if you properly set it up water can give you more.
I'm going to be putting a lot of money into doing this myself and do my own R/D so I can get the proof, or the denial of my own beliefs.
I'll come back to read binder's post and give some more information tomorrow. I'm kind of exhausted right now.
A lot of alcohol drag cars have an un-presidented problem of water in their oil. I've seen cars that run a lot of meth have water in their oil. Not a lot, but to me that's just a sloppy way to run their car. And from what my local machinists say about running lots of meth, I'm just not interested. e85 is great, but I don't like the idea of alcohol for a few reasons, all of which I previously stated. Mainly I don't like using food for fuel. I frown upon any kind of support of this... but that's my own opinion.
And please remember back when water was being tested the military and gov funded research facilities had plenty of various kinds of alcohol to use, in great quality and quantity. I brought up the fact that it was originally used to keep the water from freezing, because frankly that's something people over look. And I don't understand your point about cars not needing more fueling being bs... If you build your car correctly and get the right sized injectors, fuel pump, and lines, you shouldn't need more fuel.
I personally would not feel comfortable running 40% meth. Yes because it burns. Especially because it burns invisible. That's some very very dangerous ****. There's a reason tracks don't allow meth injection... That's just unbelievably sketchy. 40% of the fuel needed for 1000hp is a lot. That much in a line catching on fire, is just a nightmare regardless that it's INVISIBLE. Yes you can do all sorts of things to keep it safe, but on a street car, I'd like to not have to worry about anything more than my fuel line.
And the washing thing, I've heard it from machinists, tuners, fellow car guys, people who've run it and regular bench racers. I don't know who more I need to hear it from. I think it should be ok if you run a bit of water in your mix to help clean things out, but even then I'm not fond of the idea at all.
Sorry jerry nothing you've posted has convinced me otherwise.
I didn't just come up with this opinion over night, I've spent the last 2-3 years reading about it, and studying about things similar in school. Heard the arguments you've made (not saying they're bad or invalid or anything like that) and still choose to invest time into pursuing water. I'm really putting my block on the line to test this (eventually). I've even come up with a set of parameters I want to data log and how exactly to ramp the car up to push the engine to it's max on water.
And yes the carnot cycle is well not really for a steam engine, precisely it's for a "perfect" heat engine, which is simply impossible. And having drawn up and data recorded some pretty simple 4 stroke engines for testing in school/fun, I understand that it's not exactly how a gas engine works. BUT, the alterations from ideal to real world are very simple and are easy to understand.
Meth has it's place, and it does work. But I believe if you properly set it up water can give you more.
I'm going to be putting a lot of money into doing this myself and do my own R/D so I can get the proof, or the denial of my own beliefs.
I'll come back to read binder's post and give some more information tomorrow. I'm kind of exhausted right now.
Last edited by Resmarted; 07-28-2012 at 01:33 AM.
07-28-2012, 08:58 AM
#47
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6 Posts
Um jerry do you have any idea why running meth is bad?
A lot of alcohol drag cars have an un-presidented problem of water in their oil. I've seen cars that run a lot of meth have water in their oil. Not a lot, but to me that's just a sloppy way to run their car. And from what my local machinists say about running lots of meth, I'm just not interested. e85 is great, but I don't like the idea of alcohol for a few reasons, all of which I previously stated. Mainly I don't like using food for fuel. I frown upon any kind of support of this... but that's my own opinion.
A lot of alcohol drag cars have an un-presidented problem of water in their oil. I've seen cars that run a lot of meth have water in their oil. Not a lot, but to me that's just a sloppy way to run their car. And from what my local machinists say about running lots of meth, I'm just not interested. e85 is great, but I don't like the idea of alcohol for a few reasons, all of which I previously stated. Mainly I don't like using food for fuel. I frown upon any kind of support of this... but that's my own opinion.
And please remember back when water was being tested the military and gov funded research facilities had plenty of various kinds of alcohol to use, in great quality and quantity. I brought up the fact that it was originally used to keep the water from freezing, because frankly that's something people over look. And I don't understand your point about cars not needing more fueling being bs... If you build your car correctly and get the right sized injectors, fuel pump, and lines, you shouldn't need more fuel.
I personally would not feel comfortable running 40% meth. Yes because it burns. Especially because it burns invisible. That's some very very dangerous ****. There's a reason tracks don't allow meth injection... That's just unbelievably sketchy. 40% of the fuel needed for 1000hp is a lot. That much in a line catching on fire, is just a nightmare regardless that it's INVISIBLE. Yes you can do all sorts of things to keep it safe, but on a street car, I'd like to not have to worry about anything more than my fuel line.
Not sure where 40% came from because the standard is to run 20% of fuel with methanol. Either way, if you needed 40% fuel and you are using a non-flammable mixture then it will still be non-flammable. So if you have 1000cc of fuel and want 40% (400cc) to be methanol then you would inject roughly 800cc of 50/50 mix to get 50$ methanol as fuel. 50/50 is non-flammable otherwise they wouldn't be able to ship it via UPS, USPS, etc to your front door (boost juice).
And the washing thing, I've heard it from machinists, tuners, fellow car guys, people who've run it and regular bench racers. I don't know who more I need to hear it from. I think it should be ok if you run a bit of water in your mix to help clean things out, but even then I'm not fond of the idea at all.
Meth has it's place, and it does work. But I believe if you properly set it up water can give you more.
I'm going to be putting a lot of money into doing this myself and do my own R/D so I can get the proof, or the denial of my own beliefs.
I'll come back to read binder's post and give some more information tomorrow. I'm kind of exhausted right now.
So basically ask yourself this question: Do you think c16 and water injection will produce more power than 93 octane and water injection?
If you say YES c16 and water will produce more power then you are effectively saying that pump+methanol (to get octane similar to c16) plus water on top of that meth would be the best way to get the most power.
In reply, answer that last question first. I will leave these forums indefinitely if you honestly think that a higher octane fuel with water isn't going to yield any more power than a pump gas plus water. How that high octane fuel is obtained doesn't matter. Pump+methanol, pump+toluene, or race gas.
and that stuff I posted was just stuff I found. I really didn't have any argument or anything with it. I tried to find the dyno plots from Matt Snow but they must have been taken down.
I do find it funny that these idiots actually say that no injection at all produces more power. LOL. The turbo buick forums are a bunch of morons because they do all these dynos with any type of injection saying it doesn't increase power but the idiots aren't tuning for it. That's like dumping race gas in the tank and not tuning...of course it won't produce any extra power that way.
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...yno-Experiment
thought everyone would get a kick out of those fools
07-28-2012, 10:08 AM
#48
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ok, I found comparison dynos with a baseline, water only, 50/50 water/meth and 50/50 water/ethanol.
This of course is on a small engine mazda MPV. Timing and a/f was optimized each time.
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=209796
More octane=more gains over water injection alone. Simple concept. Now, if the primary fuel was race gas (high octane) then of course the results would probably be equal but that's not what is in question. PUMP (low octane) plus water is what is in question and it falls short of a combo with meth since meth adds octane to the primary fuel.
This of course is on a small engine mazda MPV. Timing and a/f was optimized each time.
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=209796
More octane=more gains over water injection alone. Simple concept. Now, if the primary fuel was race gas (high octane) then of course the results would probably be equal but that's not what is in question. PUMP (low octane) plus water is what is in question and it falls short of a combo with meth since meth adds octane to the primary fuel.
07-28-2012, 12:24 PM
#49
can you should be me one? because i used to be at the strip three times a week and have not seen it. the only ones i have seen with a retarded amount of bad things in there oil is nitromethane vehicles which end up with it in there oil and it ends up making napalm.
water will wind up with water in your oil however........... because your going to have blow by.
about e85............... you do realize that if corn or some other food is used it retains 99% of its nutritional value after distillation? most of it made with corn is made from livestock corn and still used to feed livestock as slop, however some destined for humans is used. ever had a can of cream corn? thats the byproduct of producing e85, they are moving more to using algae to produce it though. and obviously meth is made from wood so no food consumption there either.
burning? at that statement it would make me think you would be opposed to running gasoline it burns too............ add in a table spoon of a impurity and it wont burn clear either the denatured alcohol im running burns red from the 1-4% mik in it which is a petroleum product.
any machinist or tuner who says you will wash your cylinder walls is one i wouldnt trust with a lawn mower........ plain and simple they are supid it wont happen it dosnt happen. i injected 18 gph of meth at idle just to test the system really quick after getting everything back togeather end result? nothing. and bench racers...............well need we say more they are about as useless as useless can get they dont do anything. meth is a superior cleaning agent to steam hands down, want more evidence of that ask my wife who couldnt get a simple sticky spot off the kitchen floor where the boy got into something(which i have no idea what it was) 30 minutes later i grab some alcohol and wipe it up with 3 swipes.
im gona leave it at that bro your going to be sadly disappointed with it which i believe is bad for the community, because it breeds negative feelings but i cant convince you so im not gona try anymore.
water will wind up with water in your oil however........... because your going to have blow by.
about e85............... you do realize that if corn or some other food is used it retains 99% of its nutritional value after distillation? most of it made with corn is made from livestock corn and still used to feed livestock as slop, however some destined for humans is used. ever had a can of cream corn? thats the byproduct of producing e85, they are moving more to using algae to produce it though. and obviously meth is made from wood so no food consumption there either.
burning? at that statement it would make me think you would be opposed to running gasoline it burns too............ add in a table spoon of a impurity and it wont burn clear either the denatured alcohol im running burns red from the 1-4% mik in it which is a petroleum product.
any machinist or tuner who says you will wash your cylinder walls is one i wouldnt trust with a lawn mower........ plain and simple they are supid it wont happen it dosnt happen. i injected 18 gph of meth at idle just to test the system really quick after getting everything back togeather end result? nothing. and bench racers...............well need we say more they are about as useless as useless can get they dont do anything. meth is a superior cleaning agent to steam hands down, want more evidence of that ask my wife who couldnt get a simple sticky spot off the kitchen floor where the boy got into something(which i have no idea what it was) 30 minutes later i grab some alcohol and wipe it up with 3 swipes.
im gona leave it at that bro your going to be sadly disappointed with it which i believe is bad for the community, because it breeds negative feelings but i cant convince you so im not gona try anymore.
Um jerry do you have any idea why running meth is bad?
A lot of alcohol drag cars have an un-presidented problem of water in their oil. I've seen cars that run a lot of meth have water in their oil. Not a lot, but to me that's just a sloppy way to run their car. And from what my local machinists say about running lots of meth, I'm just not interested. e85 is great, but I don't like the idea of alcohol for a few reasons, all of which I previously stated. Mainly I don't like using food for fuel. I frown upon any kind of support of this... but that's my own opinion.
And please remember back when water was being tested the military and gov funded research facilities had plenty of various kinds of alcohol to use, in great quality and quantity. I brought up the fact that it was originally used to keep the water from freezing, because frankly that's something people over look. And I don't understand your point about cars not needing more fueling being bs... If you build your car correctly and get the right sized injectors, fuel pump, and lines, you shouldn't need more fuel.
I personally would not feel comfortable running 40% meth. Yes because it burns. Especially because it burns invisible. That's some very very dangerous ****. There's a reason tracks don't allow meth injection... That's just unbelievably sketchy. 40% of the fuel needed for 1000hp is a lot. That much in a line catching on fire, is just a nightmare regardless that it's INVISIBLE. Yes you can do all sorts of things to keep it safe, but on a street car, I'd like to not have to worry about anything more than my fuel line.
And the washing thing, I've heard it from machinists, tuners, fellow car guys, people who've run it and regular bench racers. I don't know who more I need to hear it from. I think it should be ok if you run a bit of water in your mix to help clean things out, but even then I'm not fond of the idea at all.
Sorry jerry nothing you've posted has convinced me otherwise.
I didn't just come up with this opinion over night, I've spent the last 2-3 years reading about it, and studying about things similar in school. Heard the arguments you've made (not saying they're bad or invalid or anything like that) and still choose to invest time into pursuing water. I'm really putting my block on the line to test this (eventually). I've even come up with a set of parameters I want to data log and how exactly to ramp the car up to push the engine to it's max on water.
And yes the carnot cycle is well not really for a steam engine, precisely it's for a "perfect" heat engine, which is simply impossible. And having drawn up and data recorded some pretty simple 4 stroke engines for testing in school/fun, I understand that it's not exactly how a gas engine works. BUT, the alterations from ideal to real world are very simple and are easy to understand.
Meth has it's place, and it does work. But I believe if you properly set it up water can give you more.
I'm going to be putting a lot of money into doing this myself and do my own R/D so I can get the proof, or the denial of my own beliefs.
I'll come back to read binder's post and give some more information tomorrow. I'm kind of exhausted right now.
A lot of alcohol drag cars have an un-presidented problem of water in their oil. I've seen cars that run a lot of meth have water in their oil. Not a lot, but to me that's just a sloppy way to run their car. And from what my local machinists say about running lots of meth, I'm just not interested. e85 is great, but I don't like the idea of alcohol for a few reasons, all of which I previously stated. Mainly I don't like using food for fuel. I frown upon any kind of support of this... but that's my own opinion.
And please remember back when water was being tested the military and gov funded research facilities had plenty of various kinds of alcohol to use, in great quality and quantity. I brought up the fact that it was originally used to keep the water from freezing, because frankly that's something people over look. And I don't understand your point about cars not needing more fueling being bs... If you build your car correctly and get the right sized injectors, fuel pump, and lines, you shouldn't need more fuel.
I personally would not feel comfortable running 40% meth. Yes because it burns. Especially because it burns invisible. That's some very very dangerous ****. There's a reason tracks don't allow meth injection... That's just unbelievably sketchy. 40% of the fuel needed for 1000hp is a lot. That much in a line catching on fire, is just a nightmare regardless that it's INVISIBLE. Yes you can do all sorts of things to keep it safe, but on a street car, I'd like to not have to worry about anything more than my fuel line.
And the washing thing, I've heard it from machinists, tuners, fellow car guys, people who've run it and regular bench racers. I don't know who more I need to hear it from. I think it should be ok if you run a bit of water in your mix to help clean things out, but even then I'm not fond of the idea at all.
Sorry jerry nothing you've posted has convinced me otherwise.
I didn't just come up with this opinion over night, I've spent the last 2-3 years reading about it, and studying about things similar in school. Heard the arguments you've made (not saying they're bad or invalid or anything like that) and still choose to invest time into pursuing water. I'm really putting my block on the line to test this (eventually). I've even come up with a set of parameters I want to data log and how exactly to ramp the car up to push the engine to it's max on water.
And yes the carnot cycle is well not really for a steam engine, precisely it's for a "perfect" heat engine, which is simply impossible. And having drawn up and data recorded some pretty simple 4 stroke engines for testing in school/fun, I understand that it's not exactly how a gas engine works. BUT, the alterations from ideal to real world are very simple and are easy to understand.
Meth has it's place, and it does work. But I believe if you properly set it up water can give you more.
I'm going to be putting a lot of money into doing this myself and do my own R/D so I can get the proof, or the denial of my own beliefs.
I'll come back to read binder's post and give some more information tomorrow. I'm kind of exhausted right now.
07-28-2012, 07:33 PM
#50
can you should be me one? because i used to be at the strip three times a week and have not seen it. the only ones i have seen with a retarded amount of bad things in there oil is nitromethane vehicles which end up with it in there oil and it ends up making napalm.
water will wind up with water in your oil however........... because your going to have blow by.
about e85............... you do realize that if corn or some other food is used it retains 99% of its nutritional value after distillation? most of it made with corn is made from livestock corn and still used to feed livestock as slop, however some destined for humans is used. ever had a can of cream corn? thats the byproduct of producing e85, they are moving more to using algae to produce it though. and obviously meth is made from wood so no food consumption there either.
burning? at that statement it would make me think you would be opposed to running gasoline it burns too............ add in a table spoon of a impurity and it wont burn clear either the denatured alcohol im running burns red from the 1-4% mik in it which is a petroleum product.
any machinist or tuner who says you will wash your cylinder walls is one i wouldnt trust with a lawn mower........ plain and simple they are supid it wont happen it dosnt happen. i injected 18 gph of meth at idle just to test the system really quick after getting everything back togeather end result? nothing. and bench racers...............well need we say more they are about as useless as useless can get they dont do anything. meth is a superior cleaning agent to steam hands down, want more evidence of that ask my wife who couldnt get a simple sticky spot off the kitchen floor where the boy got into something(which i have no idea what it was) 30 minutes later i grab some alcohol and wipe it up with 3 swipes.
im gona leave it at that bro your going to be sadly disappointed with it which i believe is bad for the community, because it breeds negative feelings but i cant convince you so im not gona try anymore.
water will wind up with water in your oil however........... because your going to have blow by.
about e85............... you do realize that if corn or some other food is used it retains 99% of its nutritional value after distillation? most of it made with corn is made from livestock corn and still used to feed livestock as slop, however some destined for humans is used. ever had a can of cream corn? thats the byproduct of producing e85, they are moving more to using algae to produce it though. and obviously meth is made from wood so no food consumption there either.
burning? at that statement it would make me think you would be opposed to running gasoline it burns too............ add in a table spoon of a impurity and it wont burn clear either the denatured alcohol im running burns red from the 1-4% mik in it which is a petroleum product.
any machinist or tuner who says you will wash your cylinder walls is one i wouldnt trust with a lawn mower........ plain and simple they are supid it wont happen it dosnt happen. i injected 18 gph of meth at idle just to test the system really quick after getting everything back togeather end result? nothing. and bench racers...............well need we say more they are about as useless as useless can get they dont do anything. meth is a superior cleaning agent to steam hands down, want more evidence of that ask my wife who couldnt get a simple sticky spot off the kitchen floor where the boy got into something(which i have no idea what it was) 30 minutes later i grab some alcohol and wipe it up with 3 swipes.
im gona leave it at that bro your going to be sadly disappointed with it which i believe is bad for the community, because it breeds negative feelings but i cant convince you so im not gona try anymore.
Meth is a terrible cleaning agent for engines. Better than steam? I'm sorry but you're loosing a lot of merit in this discussion if you are going to compare how **** wipes up. Maybe I should add distilled water to leaving a spotless car if you wash with it? That makes it a fantastic injection substance. *Sarcasm out the ****
I don't have pictures because frankly I'm not devoted to posting things on the internet. The internet is for entertainment and some sharing. I've seen it and I added a mental note of it; that's all I need to do for myself.
If you want to run xylol and meth in huge amounts go ahead. That's sloppy in my book and is not something I'd ever do. Don't care if that is offensive or anything like that, that's my opinion.
And yes they are moving more towards algae and others. In fact, my father's company funded a great deal of money for research on that project sometime in the 2000's
Last edited by Resmarted; 07-28-2012 at 07:40 PM.
07-28-2012, 07:36 PM
#51
More octane=more gains over water injection alone. Simple concept. Now, if the primary fuel was race gas (high octane) then of course the results would probably be equal but that's not what is in question. PUMP (low octane) plus water is what is in question and it falls short of a combo with meth since meth adds octane to the primary fuel.
I'm pretty sure that in the article the gains found with pure WI were more than the 600hp ish you cited. I'll have to reread it, been very busy lately with general birthday related debauchery.
Last edited by Resmarted; 07-28-2012 at 07:41 PM.
08-07-2012, 03:58 AM
#52
Actually, if you read that old research you posted they found 30% of the oil was water. And that's pure water injection. So the argument that meth will dilute the oil in the crankcase doesn't hold weight since far more dilution is present with a straight water injection. The research you posted goes against what you are trying to prevent. That makes you look silly, almost like you didn't fully read what you posted to make your point.
Nope didn't read it all the way thanks for pointing that out, that sucks *******.
It wasn't costly for the military to stock 2 types of fuel. Especially if they were only using the injection for cooling. They had 130octane fuel so adding something with 123 octane into an injection system wouldn't do anything for them so methanol wasn't needed. It's as simple as that. And the "needing more fuel" isn't about quantity of fuel it's about octane. With 93 octane there is HUGE room for increase in octane. If we were running 130octane like the planes then no, there is no reason for methanol. The same way someone running c16 would only inject water because they don't need extra octane. You are comparing a person with low octane injecting methanol to increase octane with a race car running high octane already. It's about application. If you don't need octane then it's stupid to inject additional fuel that is high octane. It would serve no purpose in combination with race fuel.
Octane rating is a combination of the fuel mixed with air, and I think we can all agree that no liquid you can mix in the air fuel mixture will make it burn slower and cooler than water no? Water would be added to gasoline but it can't be stored at higher concentrations safely in gas tanks. The octane level of pump gas with water i bet would be much higher than meth
Research proven that anything under a 60% methanol by volume mixture is NOT flammable. That's why all the injection systems are required by law to recommend only using a mixture under 60% (hence all the 50/50 mixtures). Buy a bottle of 50/50 Boost juice and pour it on the ground, drop a match on it, nothing happens.
I'm talking about running 40% of your fuel at 100% methanol not running 40/60 meth/water
Not sure where 40% came from because the standard is to run 20% of fuel with methanol. Either way, if you needed 40% fuel and you are using a non-flammable mixture then it will still be non-flammable. So if you have 1000cc of fuel and want 40% (400cc) to be methanol then you would inject roughly 800cc of 50/50 mix to get 50$ methanol as fuel. 50/50 is non-flammable otherwise they wouldn't be able to ship it via UPS, USPS, etc to your front door (boost juice).
again I'm talking about running 40% of your fuel at 100% methanol not running 40/60 meth/water, which is comparable to what a lot of big hp meth cars actually run on "pump" gas
Again, washing occurs when there is raw liquid in the combustion chamber. That can be done by just running an overly rich pumpgas map. If you run pumpgas at say 7:1 a/f then chances are a good amount is not being burned and will wash the cylinder walls. I have seen just as many engines washed with straight pump gas or race gas due to a bad tune than I have with any type of injection. Of course since water is never "burned" it would be a liquid within the combustion chamber and just as much a risk to wash the cylinders than any other fuel. By your comments you say that water "steam cleans" the combustion chambers. Wouldn't that mean it would steam off any oil protecting the walls of the cylinders? by your example yes so that means you are saying it is doing exactly what it takes to wash cylinder walls. This is incorrect though otherwise we would see water injection causing cylinder wall washing. So properly tuned fuel amount that is being fully burned in the combustion chamber WILL NOT wash the cylinder walls.
My machinist says he always sees blocks that had meth running in them come back faster and looser. I just did some searching and found people stating the same thing, and others stating what machinist says. I just don't trust it, that's me.
Properly set up water injection can do a lot for combustion temps but it does nothing for octane of the fuel. Ya, I understand the 'effective octane" being increased by the cooling suppressing detonation. In a system running race gas then water would be the only thing to use but from pump gas you are starting with a low octane fuel and adding only water while being stuck at 93 octane. I'm very confused how you don't think more power will be produced by raising the octane of the fuel with methanol AND having water injected thus adding cooling and increasing the fuel.
Ill explain with a wiki quote: "Methanol is far more difficult to ignite than gasoline and burns about 60% slower. A methanol fire releases energy at around 20% of the rate of a gasoline fire, resulting in a much cooler flame. This results in a much less dangerous fire that is easier to contain with proper protocols. Unlike gasoline, water is acceptable and even preferred as a fire suppressant, since this both cools the fire and rapidly dilutes the fuel below the concentration where it will maintain self-flammability. These facts mean that, as a vehicle fuel, methanol has great safety advantages over gasoline.[13] Ethanol shares many of these same advantages. My dislike of meth as unsafe in 100% quantities is based purely off of the fact that it can burn invisible I just don't want that kind of risk on a 'daily' car, blowing an engine is one thing but catching my car on fire and not realizing it till it's too late is another.
The water doesn't just cool the combustion temp, but it slows it down as I've stated before. Lets say you want to run 20% injection. If you run water you'll be able to cool the combustion temperature in a more effective way, and slow it more so than injecting 20% methanol. e85 is one thing but 20% meth is completely different. Lets use some weighted averages to explain this. 20% methanol mixture: .20*.60=.12 .80 of your fuel is still burning at 1 (80% fuel is still going to burn at 100% speed), so you get an end theoretical burn speed around 92% (assume it's a bit better via mixing or something and lets say 89%) Do you really believe that 20% water won't slow it down 11%? Nothing you can add to gasoline will slow and cool the burn as well as water will for that 20%. That's the theory. Does that make sense? e85 on the other hand does it a lot more convincingly with about 66% weighted average of fuel burn speed. Check my math on this, it is 5:20 AM and I started off nearly a whole day ago about 10,000 feet above where I am now and somewhere near 300 miles of driving... im feeling a bit hazy
So basically ask yourself this question: Do you think c16 and water injection will produce more power than 93 octane and water injection?
This is the right question to be asking about the topic at hand. In theory, water should be-able to stave 'all' detonation. What I believe is you'll run into limitation of your vehicle before you run into limitations of your air fuel water mixture. Because we know we are limited to XX% fuel to water injection to add onto the gasoline, we have an end octane/burn rate that is xxx slow. Obviously if we bump up that original octane level we'll see that xxx even slower. I think that water probably could slow down the burn enough to reach xxx burn speeds that would allow for race gas like (around c16) afr, timing and boost levels. I'm not saying injecting pure water is better than running race gas, I'm saying for injection purposes water can do more per droplet towards getting you to that race gas level than meth can.
If you say YES c16 and water will produce more power then you are effectively saying that pump+methanol (to get octane similar to c16) plus water on top of that meth would be the best way to get the most power.
Here's how I see that same question and I want your answer. It uses the exact same logic. If water is better than methanol to inject in a race fuel engine (ONLY for Knock prevention which is what I'm after), why wouldn't it be better to inject than methanol? I'm curious what you have to say to that.
In reply, answer that last question first. I will leave these forums indefinitely if you honestly think that a higher octane fuel with water isn't going to yield any more power than a pump gas plus water. How that high octane fuel is obtained doesn't matter. Pump+methanol, pump+toluene, or race gas.
The question in my mind is how far does water reach out with knock suppression. Not many people run 100% water, and beyond that not many people really push it out without the backing of a race team where they already use race gas. Beyond that, I doubt my car could take advantage of full race gas and water injection, and if any car here could it would be some like ashton or rich with very very big turbos.
and that stuff I posted was just stuff I found. I really didn't have any argument or anything with it. I tried to find the dyno plots from Matt Snow but they must have been taken down.
Nope didn't read it all the way thanks for pointing that out, that sucks *******.
It wasn't costly for the military to stock 2 types of fuel. Especially if they were only using the injection for cooling. They had 130octane fuel so adding something with 123 octane into an injection system wouldn't do anything for them so methanol wasn't needed. It's as simple as that. And the "needing more fuel" isn't about quantity of fuel it's about octane. With 93 octane there is HUGE room for increase in octane. If we were running 130octane like the planes then no, there is no reason for methanol. The same way someone running c16 would only inject water because they don't need extra octane. You are comparing a person with low octane injecting methanol to increase octane with a race car running high octane already. It's about application. If you don't need octane then it's stupid to inject additional fuel that is high octane. It would serve no purpose in combination with race fuel.
Octane rating is a combination of the fuel mixed with air, and I think we can all agree that no liquid you can mix in the air fuel mixture will make it burn slower and cooler than water no? Water would be added to gasoline but it can't be stored at higher concentrations safely in gas tanks. The octane level of pump gas with water i bet would be much higher than meth
Research proven that anything under a 60% methanol by volume mixture is NOT flammable. That's why all the injection systems are required by law to recommend only using a mixture under 60% (hence all the 50/50 mixtures). Buy a bottle of 50/50 Boost juice and pour it on the ground, drop a match on it, nothing happens.
I'm talking about running 40% of your fuel at 100% methanol not running 40/60 meth/water
Not sure where 40% came from because the standard is to run 20% of fuel with methanol. Either way, if you needed 40% fuel and you are using a non-flammable mixture then it will still be non-flammable. So if you have 1000cc of fuel and want 40% (400cc) to be methanol then you would inject roughly 800cc of 50/50 mix to get 50$ methanol as fuel. 50/50 is non-flammable otherwise they wouldn't be able to ship it via UPS, USPS, etc to your front door (boost juice).
again I'm talking about running 40% of your fuel at 100% methanol not running 40/60 meth/water, which is comparable to what a lot of big hp meth cars actually run on "pump" gas
Again, washing occurs when there is raw liquid in the combustion chamber. That can be done by just running an overly rich pumpgas map. If you run pumpgas at say 7:1 a/f then chances are a good amount is not being burned and will wash the cylinder walls. I have seen just as many engines washed with straight pump gas or race gas due to a bad tune than I have with any type of injection. Of course since water is never "burned" it would be a liquid within the combustion chamber and just as much a risk to wash the cylinders than any other fuel. By your comments you say that water "steam cleans" the combustion chambers. Wouldn't that mean it would steam off any oil protecting the walls of the cylinders? by your example yes so that means you are saying it is doing exactly what it takes to wash cylinder walls. This is incorrect though otherwise we would see water injection causing cylinder wall washing. So properly tuned fuel amount that is being fully burned in the combustion chamber WILL NOT wash the cylinder walls.
My machinist says he always sees blocks that had meth running in them come back faster and looser. I just did some searching and found people stating the same thing, and others stating what machinist says. I just don't trust it, that's me.
Properly set up water injection can do a lot for combustion temps but it does nothing for octane of the fuel. Ya, I understand the 'effective octane" being increased by the cooling suppressing detonation. In a system running race gas then water would be the only thing to use but from pump gas you are starting with a low octane fuel and adding only water while being stuck at 93 octane. I'm very confused how you don't think more power will be produced by raising the octane of the fuel with methanol AND having water injected thus adding cooling and increasing the fuel.
Ill explain with a wiki quote: "Methanol is far more difficult to ignite than gasoline and burns about 60% slower. A methanol fire releases energy at around 20% of the rate of a gasoline fire, resulting in a much cooler flame. This results in a much less dangerous fire that is easier to contain with proper protocols. Unlike gasoline, water is acceptable and even preferred as a fire suppressant, since this both cools the fire and rapidly dilutes the fuel below the concentration where it will maintain self-flammability. These facts mean that, as a vehicle fuel, methanol has great safety advantages over gasoline.[13] Ethanol shares many of these same advantages. My dislike of meth as unsafe in 100% quantities is based purely off of the fact that it can burn invisible I just don't want that kind of risk on a 'daily' car, blowing an engine is one thing but catching my car on fire and not realizing it till it's too late is another.
The water doesn't just cool the combustion temp, but it slows it down as I've stated before. Lets say you want to run 20% injection. If you run water you'll be able to cool the combustion temperature in a more effective way, and slow it more so than injecting 20% methanol. e85 is one thing but 20% meth is completely different. Lets use some weighted averages to explain this. 20% methanol mixture: .20*.60=.12 .80 of your fuel is still burning at 1 (80% fuel is still going to burn at 100% speed), so you get an end theoretical burn speed around 92% (assume it's a bit better via mixing or something and lets say 89%) Do you really believe that 20% water won't slow it down 11%? Nothing you can add to gasoline will slow and cool the burn as well as water will for that 20%. That's the theory. Does that make sense? e85 on the other hand does it a lot more convincingly with about 66% weighted average of fuel burn speed. Check my math on this, it is 5:20 AM and I started off nearly a whole day ago about 10,000 feet above where I am now and somewhere near 300 miles of driving... im feeling a bit hazy
So basically ask yourself this question: Do you think c16 and water injection will produce more power than 93 octane and water injection?
This is the right question to be asking about the topic at hand. In theory, water should be-able to stave 'all' detonation. What I believe is you'll run into limitation of your vehicle before you run into limitations of your air fuel water mixture. Because we know we are limited to XX% fuel to water injection to add onto the gasoline, we have an end octane/burn rate that is xxx slow. Obviously if we bump up that original octane level we'll see that xxx even slower. I think that water probably could slow down the burn enough to reach xxx burn speeds that would allow for race gas like (around c16) afr, timing and boost levels. I'm not saying injecting pure water is better than running race gas, I'm saying for injection purposes water can do more per droplet towards getting you to that race gas level than meth can.
If you say YES c16 and water will produce more power then you are effectively saying that pump+methanol (to get octane similar to c16) plus water on top of that meth would be the best way to get the most power.
Here's how I see that same question and I want your answer. It uses the exact same logic. If water is better than methanol to inject in a race fuel engine (ONLY for Knock prevention which is what I'm after), why wouldn't it be better to inject than methanol? I'm curious what you have to say to that.
In reply, answer that last question first. I will leave these forums indefinitely if you honestly think that a higher octane fuel with water isn't going to yield any more power than a pump gas plus water. How that high octane fuel is obtained doesn't matter. Pump+methanol, pump+toluene, or race gas.
The question in my mind is how far does water reach out with knock suppression. Not many people run 100% water, and beyond that not many people really push it out without the backing of a race team where they already use race gas. Beyond that, I doubt my car could take advantage of full race gas and water injection, and if any car here could it would be some like ashton or rich with very very big turbos.
and that stuff I posted was just stuff I found. I really didn't have any argument or anything with it. I tried to find the dyno plots from Matt Snow but they must have been taken down.
Last edited by Resmarted; 08-07-2012 at 04:22 AM.
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