jesseenglish

Not to start a fight, but if you're trying to imply that GaryK or I are also D'oh, then you really oughta pay attention more before you make ridiculous claims like that.

swinke

This thread is getting a little frazzled at the end here. On to the next subject I guess.

D'oh

Yeah, I guess I wasn't too helpful so here you go:


First, I am neither GaryK or Jesseenglish, but that is really beside the point (but I'm honored that you'd include me in their company since they seem to be some of more knowledgable people on this site).

You posted here asking for help, but seemed to have already made up your mind about what the problem is.

From an outsider's perspective - someone who has nothing invested in the outcome of your situation - it just seems wierd that you'd be acting the way you are to people who seem to be asking the right questions and giving you ideas as to what the problem could be. So, yeah, I guess I really don't understand whatever it is I'm supposed to be understanding.

Anytime one of our company's products have a problem, we perform a failure analysis to try and determine what went wrong and whether we can take preventative measures to fix the problem on future versions of the product. That analysis is a step by step process in which all the potential causes are evaluated and once a cause is found it is further evaluated until we discover the "root cause" (sometimes this is complicated by the fact that the "root cause" is a number of things that need to happen simultaneously for a problem to manifest itself). This process is a real PITA, and not too enjoyable.

So in your case, and possibly E_J's as well, it sounds like you can look at things like this:

Initial Problem - Lean @ high RPMs
Why? - Not enough fuel (pretty simple)
Why? - Fuel Pressure too low (determined by the 95 psi max you are measuring compared with the 150 that GaryK has seen - or calculated)
Why? - Now this is where the real work begins. It doesn't seem like anyone knows this yet, and there are many reasons why this could happen. It looks like you've eliminated many of them, but since you haven't proactively indicated what you've already measured (and instead only tell people that when they make suggestions, I'll just list what comes readily to mind):
1. restriction in the fuel system - can you test what the pressure is @ the pump while the car is running under boost? If the pressure @ the pump is significantly higher than the 95 @ the rail then you know there is a restriction somewhere between your test point near the pump and your initial test point near the fuel rail.
2. fuel pump not creating enough pressure - assuming the pump is maxing out @ 95 psi (which is probably the most likely given what you've already checked) then you'll need to start looking at why that could happen:
2a. Mechanical problem with fuel pump - could there be something wrong with the pump itself? Wrong fittings with small orifice, poor pump tolerances causing leaks in the pump mehcanism, etc. A possible way to check this would be to get some data from the pump MFG or ATI regarding the pressure the pump should generate at various input voltages (or PWM signals). You could then use a DC power supply or signal generator to mimic these voltages to see if the pump creates the correct pressure
2b. Electrical problem with fuel pump - is the pump motor a brushed DC motor? Are the brushes bad and therefore not allowing the motor to operate at the proper effeiciency? Is it a brushless motor with hall sensors for commutation? Were the hall sensors mounted incorrectly and therefore the motor is commutated incorrectly? Is one of the phases shorted or broken. Are the magnets our of position or missing? Can you get winding specs from the pump MFG and ohm out the windings to check some of these things.
2c. Problem with DFMU output - assuming the pump itself is operating correctly, then is the DFMU generating the correct signal based on the slider position? I think others have already discussed how to measure this.

Obviously there are tons of things that can be wrong with the kit, as well as things that might have happened during the install. None of us can know what you've already double checked and triple checked, so all we can do is make suggestions based on our understanding and experience. How you choose to react to those suggestions is up to you. Hopefully you have acted the way you have only because you are frusturated at the whole situation, and I can understand that.

Based on what you and others have said, my belief is that your DFMU is not operating correctly (assuming that you have indeed installed it properly like you previously stated). It seems like the fuel pump would be a possible culprit, but would be less likely to have a problem. If I were you, I would therefore do the following:
change the fuel filter to a new one and try to get a new DFMU and pump from ATI or have them evaluate yours to confirm that they are operating properly. If they are operating correctly, then you can focus on other parts of the system.

I think injectors are not the culprit, because even if they were higher or lower flowing than the injectors on cars that are operating correctly, you should still be able to compensate for that with higher fuel pressures. The fact that you can't get the higher pressures is what you need to solve.

I don't yet have any opinion on whether or not ATI is a good company, but I do believe that you will need to try and get their help to fully understand your problem (unless you have both the equipment and time to do all that testing yourself, which should not be your responsibility in the first place).

So, hopefully ATI will be able to help you if you need it, and hopefully you can solve the problem.

Good luck.

-D'oh!

12SecZ

Hey all,

The "fuel filter" is a screen in the gas tank area. Love these Imports lol!

elektrik_juggernaut

Wow D'oh, nice post!.......well written, constuctive, non-condescending, and non-argumentative

My problem isn't really this.......i have an 11.8:1 AFR when pre-ignition gets the heaviest........ATI defines the target AFR as 12:1 on page 58 of the manual......so i'm okay on the fuel, at least as far as ATI is concerned........granted i would like to add more to quench my detonation, but i can't

hopefully ATI will take more these problems more seriously.......whenever i've had to deal with them, they really just don't seem to care too much about any of the problems i'm having.......its like they think i'll figure this out on my own, and pretty much have "canned" responses for everything.......when they run out of cans, they quit responding........thats been my experience anyway

daking350

I know this is off topic and helps no one but I have yet to have a problem dealing with ATI..They have been pretty informative and even sent me free stuff....

Dr Bonz

iTrader: (1)

Doh: That was an awesome post. You are extremely logical!

Live Long.......and Prosper!

12SecZ

How do I get on the "free stuff" list?

I need that blower oil sucker tool. Surely I have earned that?

daking350

You can get more flies with sugar....Than with salt...Just be nice and get a cool dude on the phone...

elektrik_juggernaut

be careful of your word choice also.......i've found them to react unfavorably to the words "defective", "faulty", and "refund"

12SecZ

It's vinegar not salt but I'll pass on eating crow to get a 10 dollar oil sucker

I'll just mail the an 11.99 time slip with a Vortech sticker on my car.

D'oh

Yeah, I'm kinda counting your case as a marginal one since you seem to be OK on fuel, but compared to other people you should be able to get much more if you wanted. Since you can't, it seems something might be amiss in your case as well, although not as severely as in swinke's case.

I think your best bet is to get that timing issue resolved and to leave the fuel situation alone for the time being.

If I were ATI, I'd probably think hard about adding the a timing retard option to the "full" kit (and increasing the price accordingly), and then offer the additional timing solution at a reduced cost to existing customers who are interested in adding it to their existing kit. Another option might be to create a third "super" kit with the timing solution, and offer that at an increased price. Either way, I'd try to get something available with a timing solution since it looks like the rest of the F/I choices will have some sort of timing retard. They could always use the "staying competitive" argument to justify the change, instead of trying to argue about whether or not the existing kit is safe.

-D'oh!

elektrik_juggernaut

Yeah thats definitely my problem.......a little while ago someone PM'd me and asked me about my AFRs.......when i pulled out the chart i realized that i was looking at the wrong dyno run when i quoted that 11.8:1!!!!......i was looking at the one that I had done with an intercooler hose leak!!!!.........the run with no leak has me at 11.25:1.......i think its safe to say that with an AFR like that, fuel is pretty much ruled out for the most part

12SecZ

Nice thoughts Doh! , and yes they should do those things but would that be like admitting fault? All I want is a 10 dollar oil sucker, the rest I will chock up to lessons learned and what goes around comes around (tuner.)

But....

10 blown motors out of a hundred you would think they would want to turn this nightmare around but it just doesn't seem like they do man. It's mind boggling.

Fix a few cars, add timing control, get some good press on an LS1 killer running low 12's and instant turn around. INSTANT!

So who is to blame? Someone upstairs with bad Management and desion making skillz is my guess/opinion.

One thing for sure, letters and technical posts are not working.

How about just ONE post that says, hey WE HEAR YOU!

daking350

Thats what guys like you and me are for!!!EAST COAST!!!!

12SecZ

You are going down baby as I throw up the Wub and watch you with my rear camera on LCD.

Lol.

booger

iTrader: (6)

Hey guys...thanks for the info I have been reading in this thread .Have been thinking of putting a SC on my G35 . I was at the local speed shop today talking to the Import tuner .He asked me to put this ? to you guys .What do you guys think about adding a thicker [ metal] head gasket to lower compresion a little. He said he has done this with his TT cars and it lowered the compresion .5 that would put are engines down to 9.8 to 1...for a little safty margin .He wanted to know if this would be a good option for a SC ed car ? BTW...every guy in that shop said they wouldnt put a procharger on any of there cars.....not because of the product....but of the customer service

elektrik_juggernaut

for the most part it sounds good to me.......as long as you're okay with a drop in the horsepower.......lowering your compression will make your HP more boost-dependant, so to get the same HP most people are getting with the kit, you'd have to increase the boost

12SecZ

Sounds like a good shop but hey, if you go that far to get to the head gasket (labor wise) I would do other internal mods besides too. Good Luck. Get some boost you can change on the fly

daking350

But by increasing your boost you put yourself right back in the same situation...