After hard pull, smoke cloud immediately proceeds
07-31-2012, 06:11 AM
#22
UPDATE on Oil Cloud of smoke
UPDATE: Just wanted to give everyone a heads up on where I am at. I put the car up on a lift this past weekend and wasn't still fully buying the PCV system failing all on it's own out of no-where. So In digging through everything, I discovered that my driver side WG side port vacumn line was completely demolished. Cracked and leaking right into the atmosphere.
So I replaced the line and changed my oil, and decided to go out for a few pulls. Right after the first pull there was maybe 1/4 the amount of smoke and gradually less after each pull, most likely burning excess off.
Everything appears to be the same in terms of how the car ran and sounded last year, not too mention an added bit of power that I was losing due to my vacumn leak.
I am going to try and study the PCV/ Catch can thread from a while back and still look to help aid the PCV in it's functions, but for the time being, I thought that something so stupid and small might be of interest to others. Below is picture best I could get it while in the car.
So I replaced the line and changed my oil, and decided to go out for a few pulls. Right after the first pull there was maybe 1/4 the amount of smoke and gradually less after each pull, most likely burning excess off.
Everything appears to be the same in terms of how the car ran and sounded last year, not too mention an added bit of power that I was losing due to my vacumn leak.
I am going to try and study the PCV/ Catch can thread from a while back and still look to help aid the PCV in it's functions, but for the time being, I thought that something so stupid and small might be of interest to others. Below is picture best I could get it while in the car.
07-31-2012, 07:33 AM
#25
The opening at spring pressure would explain the terrible top end I was getting.
With regards to how badly this effects my oil issue, I am not sure in entirety yet since it seems to be tapering away, but not 100% gone yet. But If my understanding is right that the PCV system works in line with the Plenum because of how it is plumbed, then a massive leak such as this theoretically would prevent the PCV system from functioning as it was intended to do so.
With regards to how badly this effects my oil issue, I am not sure in entirety yet since it seems to be tapering away, but not 100% gone yet. But If my understanding is right that the PCV system works in line with the Plenum because of how it is plumbed, then a massive leak such as this theoretically would prevent the PCV system from functioning as it was intended to do so.
07-31-2012, 07:34 AM
#26
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wastegate has nothing to do with oil so it's an unrelated condition that happened at the same time.
The pcv didn't "fail" causing oil to be pulled into the intake. That's what it does so it's working properly. On vac it draws the air from the valvecovers. When that happens abruptly after hard boost oil can get pulled through the pcv hose. How do you combat this? Add an inline catch can or run open breathers so the breather hose isn't routed into the intake.
Chances are you finally burned off all the excess oil that was sucked into the engine or exhaust which means the smoke will stop. Takes a few weeks to get any oil to fully burn off after oil gets into the exhaust system.
The pcv didn't "fail" causing oil to be pulled into the intake. That's what it does so it's working properly. On vac it draws the air from the valvecovers. When that happens abruptly after hard boost oil can get pulled through the pcv hose. How do you combat this? Add an inline catch can or run open breathers so the breather hose isn't routed into the intake.
Chances are you finally burned off all the excess oil that was sucked into the engine or exhaust which means the smoke will stop. Takes a few weeks to get any oil to fully burn off after oil gets into the exhaust system.
07-31-2012, 07:46 AM
#28
wastegate has nothing to do with oil so it's an unrelated condition that happened at the same time.
The pcv didn't "fail" causing oil to be pulled into the intake. That's what it does so it's working properly. On vac it draws the air from the valvecovers. When that happens abruptly after hard boost oil can get pulled through the pcv hose. How do you combat this? Add an inline catch can or run open breathers so the breather hose isn't routed into the intake.
Chances are you finally burned off all the excess oil that was sucked into the engine or exhaust which means the smoke will stop. Takes a few weeks to get any oil to fully burn off after oil gets into the exhaust system.
The pcv didn't "fail" causing oil to be pulled into the intake. That's what it does so it's working properly. On vac it draws the air from the valvecovers. When that happens abruptly after hard boost oil can get pulled through the pcv hose. How do you combat this? Add an inline catch can or run open breathers so the breather hose isn't routed into the intake.
Chances are you finally burned off all the excess oil that was sucked into the engine or exhaust which means the smoke will stop. Takes a few weeks to get any oil to fully burn off after oil gets into the exhaust system.
Regardless, I've been looking at both the check valves and routing in the catch can... for nothing other then not looking like a dope when passing someone with a storm cloud of oil behind me.
07-31-2012, 07:59 AM
#29
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If in vac it is supposed to be drawing air from the valve covers and instead it is drawing air from the atmosphere because of the open vacumn line, wouldn't the PCV not be able to function 100% causing a build up of oil? Just trying to fully wrap my arms around this.
Regardless, I've been looking at both the check valves and routing in the catch can... for nothing other then not looking like a dope when passing someone with a storm cloud of oil behind me.
Regardless, I've been looking at both the check valves and routing in the catch can... for nothing other then not looking like a dope when passing someone with a storm cloud of oil behind me.
I think I might have confused you with the last post. There are 2 separate ways to prevent ingestion of oil into the intake system.
You can run the valve covers with open breathers and do not connect them to the plenum. The plenum would be blocked off so no outside air is sucked into the plenum either. So the valve covers are just venting the build up of pressure into the free air when under boost then when boost is stopped there is a loss of pressure in the crankcase and venting stops.
If you want the vac to draw gases from the valve covers into the intake then a catch can used inline with that hose from the valve cover to the plenum would catch the oil that would otherwise pass into the plenum on decel during a high vac condition.
Without the catch can inline the boost builds pressure in the valve covers. The check valve is CLOSED so boost isn't forced into the plenum from the crankcase. So boost in the crank has nowhere to go and builds up. Then all of a sudden you chop the throttle and the pressure on the check valve from the plenum is released and all that build up in the crankcase is forced violently into the plenum. Inside those crankcase gases is oil vapor built up. So then that oil vapor is sucked down into the combustion chamber and burned.
Another thing that can happen. If the seals are wearing out on the turbos after a hard decel oil can be pushed past the seals. So under heavy boost the pressure in the compressor and turbine wheels presses against the oil seals inward which increases the seal's ability to hold oil in the center cartridge. While the engine is high rpm the oil pressure from the engine is very high, probably around 100psi or so. That pressure is inside the center cartridge. When the throttle is shut the compressor and turbine wheels go from lots of pressure on the seals holding them to no pressure on them so the high pressure oil inside the center cartridge can then pressure outwards and force some oil past the seals into the turbine housing. It takes only a small amount of oil in the turbine housing to make a lot of smoke.
07-31-2012, 08:08 AM
#30
I think I might have confused you with the last post. There are 2 separate ways to prevent ingestion of oil into the intake system.
You can run the valve covers with open breathers and do not connect them to the plenum. The plenum would be blocked off so no outside air is sucked into the plenum either. So the valve covers are just venting the build up of pressure into the free air when under boost then when boost is stopped there is a loss of pressure in the crankcase and venting stops.
If you want the vac to draw gases from the valve covers into the intake then a catch can used inline with that hose from the valve cover to the plenum would catch the oil that would otherwise pass into the plenum on decel during a high vac condition.
Without the catch can inline the boost builds pressure in the valve covers. The check valve is CLOSED so boost isn't forced into the plenum from the crankcase. So boost in the crank has nowhere to go and builds up. Then all of a sudden you chop the throttle and the pressure on the check valve from the plenum is released and all that build up in the crankcase is forced violently into the plenum. Inside those crankcase gases is oil vapor built up. So then that oil vapor is sucked down into the combustion chamber and burned.
Another thing that can happen. If the seals are wearing out on the turbos after a hard decel oil can be pushed past the seals. So under heavy boost the pressure in the compressor and turbine wheels presses against the oil seals inward which increases the seal's ability to hold oil in the center cartridge. While the engine is high rpm the oil pressure from the engine is very high, probably around 100psi or so. That pressure is inside the center cartridge. When the throttle is shut the compressor and turbine wheels go from lots of pressure on the seals holding them to no pressure on them so the high pressure oil inside the center cartridge can then pressure outwards and force some oil past the seals into the turbine housing. It takes only a small amount of oil in the turbine housing to make a lot of smoke.
You can run the valve covers with open breathers and do not connect them to the plenum. The plenum would be blocked off so no outside air is sucked into the plenum either. So the valve covers are just venting the build up of pressure into the free air when under boost then when boost is stopped there is a loss of pressure in the crankcase and venting stops.
If you want the vac to draw gases from the valve covers into the intake then a catch can used inline with that hose from the valve cover to the plenum would catch the oil that would otherwise pass into the plenum on decel during a high vac condition.
Without the catch can inline the boost builds pressure in the valve covers. The check valve is CLOSED so boost isn't forced into the plenum from the crankcase. So boost in the crank has nowhere to go and builds up. Then all of a sudden you chop the throttle and the pressure on the check valve from the plenum is released and all that build up in the crankcase is forced violently into the plenum. Inside those crankcase gases is oil vapor built up. So then that oil vapor is sucked down into the combustion chamber and burned.
Another thing that can happen. If the seals are wearing out on the turbos after a hard decel oil can be pushed past the seals. So under heavy boost the pressure in the compressor and turbine wheels presses against the oil seals inward which increases the seal's ability to hold oil in the center cartridge. While the engine is high rpm the oil pressure from the engine is very high, probably around 100psi or so. That pressure is inside the center cartridge. When the throttle is shut the compressor and turbine wheels go from lots of pressure on the seals holding them to no pressure on them so the high pressure oil inside the center cartridge can then pressure outwards and force some oil past the seals into the turbine housing. It takes only a small amount of oil in the turbine housing to make a lot of smoke.
07-31-2012, 10:37 AM
#32
NOW that you discovered your wastegate line was disconnected, would that not cause the turbo to boost endlessly -- without boost reference how is the wastegate supposed to open and limit boost?
If that's the case, then one of your turbos has been doing 90% of the work as long as that line was open. Maybe it was enough to burn out the seals??
If that's the case, then one of your turbos has been doing 90% of the work as long as that line was open. Maybe it was enough to burn out the seals??
Last edited by djamps; 07-31-2012 at 10:41 AM.
07-31-2012, 10:59 AM
#33
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NOW that you discovered your wastegate line was disconnected, would that not cause the turbo to boost endlessly -- without boost reference how is the wastegate supposed to open and limit boost?
If that's the case, then one of your turbos has been doing 90% of the work as long as that line was open. Maybe it was enough to burn out the seals??
If that's the case, then one of your turbos has been doing 90% of the work as long as that line was open. Maybe it was enough to burn out the seals??
07-31-2012, 11:15 AM
#34
with no reference line it opens under spring pressure, which is usually 9 lbs or so in a standard wg unless he has changed them?. it would just cause the other turbo to open under spring pressure aswell if theres no vac on it? assuming your 2 lines off your wastegates are T'd together before the solenoid
Either way, one turbo is going to be doing ALOT more work than the other if he's trying to hit 600+WHP.
07-31-2012, 12:08 PM
#36
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are you sure? i only run 1 line off my tial 38mm wg's and they open no problem at spring pressure with the boost controller turned off. they also opened no problem when my vac from where the 2 are T'd and run up to the solenoid touched the downpiped and fried in half.
07-31-2012, 08:00 PM
#37
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The boost source is what pushes the diaphragm open.
The kicker here, if that happened then the car would overboost and in a 700+hp car I would be safe to say that there is a safety boost cut in that electronic boost controller for that very reason. So the turbo wouldn't be able to reach unsafe boost levels unless for some crazy reason this car was setup with no safety for overboosting.
Even if it did overboost the spinning motion of a turbo will not damage seals. Look at some of the turbo guys with DSM that take the same turbos we run and push them to 50+psi. They are spooling them way faster than we ever would with no problems. So again, i doubt the seals are damaged. The pressure differential when letting off could cause oil to be pushed by the seal if it was an older seal that is wearing out.
The kicker here, if that happened then the car would overboost and in a 700+hp car I would be safe to say that there is a safety boost cut in that electronic boost controller for that very reason. So the turbo wouldn't be able to reach unsafe boost levels unless for some crazy reason this car was setup with no safety for overboosting.
Even if it did overboost the spinning motion of a turbo will not damage seals. Look at some of the turbo guys with DSM that take the same turbos we run and push them to 50+psi. They are spooling them way faster than we ever would with no problems. So again, i doubt the seals are damaged. The pressure differential when letting off could cause oil to be pushed by the seal if it was an older seal that is wearing out.
08-01-2012, 07:47 AM
#38
The other thing here too is that since I had this issue, the car hasn't seen more then 9psi on the pro-efi iboost. Whether the line is connected or not, I have left my car in my first map which is 9psi (spring pressure) so both turbos were opening at the same time.
08-01-2012, 07:55 AM
#39
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The other thing here too is that since I had this issue, the car hasn't seen more then 9psi on the pro-efi iboost. Whether the line is connected or not, I have left my car in my first map which is 9psi (spring pressure) so both turbos were opening at the same time.
08-01-2012, 08:39 AM
#40
Once I saw the oil out the back, I intentionally did not raise the boost until I figured it out. I leave my car in Map 1 most of the time on the street since I can change my maps on a moments notice while driving. However, once I noticed the oil issue, I stopped raising it.
Even if there was a time while this was on and still cracked, and I raised it to a higher level, the turbo would still only build boost to 9psi since that is what my spring rate was at. My other turbo would be cracking open then earlier since everything is T'd together, so if there is a leak, then the boost controller can not work to its full potential because there is a leak. Immediately after fixing, there was a noticeable difference in the pull.
Even if there was a time while this was on and still cracked, and I raised it to a higher level, the turbo would still only build boost to 9psi since that is what my spring rate was at. My other turbo would be cracking open then earlier since everything is T'd together, so if there is a leak, then the boost controller can not work to its full potential because there is a leak. Immediately after fixing, there was a noticeable difference in the pull.