str8dum1

iTrader: (11)

yes, both meth and E85 are a waste on a stock block.

you will have physical failure before something that is octane related on a proper tune.

TopgunZ

Ok. So what is the number that it makes sense to switch? If i were to get a built block and run it at 425-450 would it pay to install an injection system or run E85? What if i wanted to run 500? 550?

Not trying to sound like a smartass. Just curious as to at what point does it turn into a good idea and you can utilize the benefits of it.

My concern with my setup is heat. We all agree heat is a contributor to engine failure and also robs the car of hp. I think a stock block pushing the limits around 400whp that has slight detonation and alot of heat will tend to bend a rod quicker than a stock around 450 without det and has IT's 30 degrees cooler.

*Article*

Uses for E85

Because of the alcohol/gasoline mixture, E85 has a rough estimate octane rating of between 105-113 octane depending on the mixture. Also the alcohol in E85 has a HUGE cooling property associated with it as well. E85 has a lot of the cooling properties that you also find with Water Meth Injection. (www.enginebasics.com/methinjection) It is great at lowering intake temperatures, lowering engine block and head temperatures, and basically doing everything that can help suppress detonation. So with E85 being SO amazing, why don’t we all convert over and start using it?

Resmarted

iTrader: (2)

It depends on what you have done for what hp. I'd say if you want over 550whp you pretty much HAVE to have something better than pump gas. But then again different dynos read different, and the bigger the displacement the further you can go on pump.

Why don't we all convert? You can't run a fuel you can't get.
That and some of us don't like e85's politics.

Boosted Performance

iTrader: (14)

I don't think this is true at all. This is a simple short block build, stock heads, cams, IM..ect. 340lph fuel pump and 850cc injectors, stock fuel rails, not sure about the fuel return...6266 T4 .81 a/r turbo, industry standard DJ:




Vince said that there was still room left and that the tune was on the conservative side of things...perhaps another 20-30whp. I think it's safe to say that the days where you need race gas (or E85 available today) is not needed for mid 600's on a single turbo kit. Perhaps with the smaller GT35r turbos, but not with a these PTE turbos.

Resmarted

iTrader: (2)

600whp on a dj vs DD are not really the same thing. I only think in dd numbers now a days! I'd say 550 on a dd is similar to low 600's on a dj no?

Besides that, pump gas is **** at least here. california 91 is awful.

Boosted Performance

iTrader: (14)

I understand that, hence the reference to the industry standard DJ. But yes, that would be about 550whp on a DD. With a large enough turbo though 600+ is possible on the DD, I think Hal has proof of this with a GT42 turbo.

TopgunZ

So depending on what I have done....Twin-charged. Im compressing already compressed air. Blowing more heat than usual.

Im after it strictly for the cooling properties.

So is it to be determined that it would still be a waste? Its about the only cooling mod I havent done. Ill know for sure my IT's when my dual readout air temp gauge gets installed. But once im built i wanted to put the higher psi pulley on and i know that will for sure raise temps even more.

binder

iTrader: (8)

In all honesty there is no set hp level to switch fuel.

Like i said the cost is just too much to warrant the changes. If you want a little safety on top of your tune the cheapest and easiest way would be to just dump a gallon of c16 into every tank. Adding a meth system would help but again more complex and really not needed.

Truthfully, if HEAT is your main concern then a 100% h2o injection system would be the cheapest way to go and it would not change your tune therefore you wouldn't have to worry about if the meth ran out would you blow your engine. You tune the car safe on pump gas then add some minor h2o injection and the a/f will remain the same. If you run out of water you will still be safe since you tuned without the h2o injection.

That would be the safest bet and only costs the price of an injection system and distilled water. no risk for engine failure if your injection system fails as well (if properly tuned without the h2o on)

For myself just as an FYI I use e85 because it's everywhere here in the midwest so no issues getting it. The cost per mile for me is actually way cheaper than running straight race gas to achieve the hp I need. Could I get 650hp out of 93 octane, probably close but that would be risky. So for safe 650 I would need race gas or e85. E85 is easier for me to get and cheaper per mile. I have thought about going down to maybe 600hp and use pump gas but at the same time with my sized turbo (67mm) the e85 gives me faster spool due to the exhaust gas charge. On the dyno I gained about 500hp of spool on e85 over pump gas. With anything smaller than a 67mm I wouldn't worry about spool and would lean more towards pump gas.

Resmarted

iTrader: (2)

That's not exactly what I meant. Cams, displacement bumps etc, should in theory help raise the max power you can make on pump. But every car/setup is different, so the only true way to know HOW much power you can make on pump is to get it properly tuned on a dyno. If you think about it, dyno tuning/tuning in general is just a bunch of testing to find the limits of your setup. The tuner is the one who decides how close to the edge to go, and the better your tuner is, the easier he/she will find that 'safe' limit.

As binder said, h2o injection would be a great consideration if you were worried about heat/fuel limitations. You will always need it when you drive the car into boost if you fully setup the car on h2o. H2o would be the most affordable, simple, and most logical step up for your system.

str8dum1

iTrader: (11)

log your AITs and make sure you have a proper intercooler before getting all worried.

Robert_K

iTrader: (25)

I had the Walbro 255 w/ RC 750cc injectors. I've upgraded to the AeroMotive 340 when I did my built longblock w/ ID 1000cc injectors. Still losing fuel pressure passed 10lbs of boost around 500whp. Order the CJM twin pumps and hopefully we'll find out something this week.

binder

iTrader: (8)

stock fuel supplie lines and fuel rails? do you have a return system? With no return system the pump will run out a lot sooner. The stock fuel lines are tiny (5/16"). The fuel rails are small diameter as well which will add to resistance and reduce flow. Could also be a leak between the pump and the basket causing a loss of pressure under heavy load.

Robert_K

iTrader: (25)

LOL Oh no. CJM Stage II return kit w/ damper rails.

binder

iTrader: (8)

That's what I thought but i've been in my own world lately so I forgot.

Then I would check to see if there is a leak where the fuel pump attaches to the basket. If too much is shaved off of the white plastic piece that holds the pump in place it won't have a solid connection and could cause it to leak.

mx594

iTrader: (4)

Any updates on your fuel pressure issues?

Robert_K

iTrader: (25)

The CJM twin pump fixed the issue. I believe car is going on the dyno today/this week.

rcdash

iTrader: (18)

Nice fuel pump comparison: http://www.radiumauto.com/blog-page....l-Pump-Test-73



My calculations indicate the Walbro 400 E85 version should be able to flow enough fuel to approach 750 whp on E85 (80% duty cycle using 1200cc injectors flowing 400+ lph at 16.5 volts, 20 amps, 80 psi, 0.84 BSFC). 700 whp should be possible with 1000 cc injectors at 90% duty cycle.

Fuel calculators:
http://www.rceng.com/technical.aspx
http://www.mopacautosupply.com/fuelc...alculators.htm

Robert_K

iTrader: (25)

Interesting graph! Thanks for sharing!

binder

iTrader: (8)

get that dreamer 16.5 volts out of here! Might as well buy a twin pump with the cost of a kenne bell boost a pump with a walbro 400 to get that 16.5 volts.

Also, there is a walbro 485 now too. that would help at normal voltages.

mx594

iTrader: (4)

Yaaaay fun with Excel