vortech/stock block let go...so *knock on wood, reliable build thread ;-)
03-06-2013, 06:16 PM
#61
This is WRONG........
ABEC Specs refer to Tolerances, not Tight or Loose Clearances.
An ABEC-5 Bearing can have Looser Tolerances, meaning that, say one Bearing could have a bigger difference between *****, an ABEC- 7 would be Less Difference.
A ABEC-5 can be more "out of Round" (eccentricity)(.000138") than a ABEC-7 (.000098")
So, you guys Think that a More "out of Round Bearing is Better than one that is not?
Roundness, Flatness, Trueness, Diameters of ***** all being the same, makes a Better Bearing........
How many years experience do you have a Mechanical Engineer?
Think about it guys! with your logic, why not just use an old worn out bearing
ABEC Specs refer to Tolerances, not Tight or Loose Clearances.
An ABEC-5 Bearing can have Looser Tolerances, meaning that, say one Bearing could have a bigger difference between *****, an ABEC- 7 would be Less Difference.
A ABEC-5 can be more "out of Round" (eccentricity)(.000138") than a ABEC-7 (.000098")
So, you guys Think that a More "out of Round Bearing is Better than one that is not?
Roundness, Flatness, Trueness, Diameters of ***** all being the same, makes a Better Bearing........
How many years experience do you have a Mechanical Engineer?
Think about it guys! with your logic, why not just use an old worn out bearing
oldman how long have you been on your setup? stock bearings right?
also here is what Carl from 928m said when i asked about the abec7-9 bearing
Be advised - they are using the ABEC rating (American Bearing Engineer's Committee) as evidence of quality - like the ABEC 7 bearings are better than the ABEC 5 bearings. That is not true.
ABEC 7 is a call out for dimensional specification, not quality. An ABEC 7 bearing is tighter than and ABEC 5 bearing. As such, it has less room to expand when heated.
If the engineers at Vortech called for an ABEC 5, I'd replace it with an ABEC 5 if I were you. Install too tight a bearing and watch it seize up when it gets hot!
Carl
Carl Fausett
Member SAE
www.928Motorsports.com and
www.SuperchargerUpgrades.com
also here is what Carl from 928m said when i asked about the abec7-9 bearing
Be advised - they are using the ABEC rating (American Bearing Engineer's Committee) as evidence of quality - like the ABEC 7 bearings are better than the ABEC 5 bearings. That is not true.
ABEC 7 is a call out for dimensional specification, not quality. An ABEC 7 bearing is tighter than and ABEC 5 bearing. As such, it has less room to expand when heated.
If the engineers at Vortech called for an ABEC 5, I'd replace it with an ABEC 5 if I were you. Install too tight a bearing and watch it seize up when it gets hot!
Carl
Carl Fausett
Member SAE
www.928Motorsports.com and
www.SuperchargerUpgrades.com
Last edited by OldManZ350; 03-06-2013 at 06:28 PM.
03-06-2013, 08:02 PM
#62
anyone heard of this site? or sent the blower here. they claim upgraded bearings. and they sell impellers??? thoughts
http://www.superchargerrebuild.com/?page_id=6
this guy has a video of him on youtube where he replaces the bearings of a vortech w "highspeed" bearings.
https://jonbondperformance.com/
< video
http://www.superchargerrebuild.com/?page_id=6
this guy has a video of him on youtube where he replaces the bearings of a vortech w "highspeed" bearings.
https://jonbondperformance.com/
Last edited by Colombo; 03-06-2013 at 08:05 PM.
03-06-2013, 09:09 PM
#63
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I'm not gonna over think this and second guess myself. My blower is coming off tomorrow and being sent in on Friday. Will Have Hal spin it by hand to see how loud it is and will probably get the bearing / seals done as well as the impeller to give it a new life...
I will budget a re-build of the unit every 1-2 years or so if need be. I'm sure the abec 5's will be sufficent for what I will be pushing. Did you upgrade your barings Tim with running it at 71000 rpms? Yours seems to be running strong for awhile now
I will budget a re-build of the unit every 1-2 years or so if need be. I'm sure the abec 5's will be sufficent for what I will be pushing. Did you upgrade your barings Tim with running it at 71000 rpms? Yours seems to be running strong for awhile now
03-06-2013, 10:13 PM
#64
My Blower has never been touched, it's a V2 Sc-trim......about 42,000 miles on the SC.
Vortech only uses ABEC-7 and -9, I don't know where people are getting -5 froms.
Your Blower should last 100,000 mile if you take care of it....
Vortech only uses ABEC-7 and -9, I don't know where people are getting -5 froms.
Your Blower should last 100,000 mile if you take care of it....
I'm not gonna over think this and second guess myself. My blower is coming off tomorrow and being sent in on Friday. Will Have Hal spin it by hand to see how loud it is and will probably get the bearing / seals done as well as the impeller to give it a new life...
I will budget a re-build of the unit every 1-2 years or so if need be. I'm sure the abec 5's will be sufficent for what I will be pushing. Did you upgrade your barings Tim with running it at 71000 rpms? Yours seems to be running strong for awhile now
I will budget a re-build of the unit every 1-2 years or so if need be. I'm sure the abec 5's will be sufficent for what I will be pushing. Did you upgrade your barings Tim with running it at 71000 rpms? Yours seems to be running strong for awhile now
03-07-2013, 07:03 AM
#66
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I never responded to what the Vortech rep claimed (see post 23), and I'd like to now.
In the design of our S-trim performance impeller we started with a blank sheet of white paper, and the dimensions of the Vortech S-trim volute. We hired the top fluid dynamics engineer (a specialist in just impellers) for this project, and asked him to assess the S-trim impeller and whether Vortech had left anything on the table. We had previously done this with the Powerdyne BD-series and found that we were able to get a 20% gain relative to their impeller design.
Vortech's "S" trim impeller was better than the Powerdyne, and as such we were only able to net a 15% increase in CFM. But still, that was well worth the expense of the project.
Our impeller was drawn from scratch, tested, and patented. It holds US Patent D588,158 S which it received on March 10th, 2009.
We engineered our impeller to operate at 60,000 rpm, and each impeller is dynamically spin balanced to 60,000 rpm. Each impeller is serialized, and the patent number and serial number appears on the back of our impellers after they have been spin-balanced.
We commissioned a destructive over-speed test for our impeller as well. A 10% over-speed test is common in the impeller industry, but we asked for a 20% over-speed test. The impellers were spun to 72,000 rpm without failure.
In addition to the improvements in shape and design that we can claim vs.. the original S trim impeller, there is of course the fact that our impeller is cut from billet, where the stock part is cast, then machined. The difference between a cast part and a part cut from billet is significant, not only in the ability to hold tighter tolerances, but also in the ability to use stronger aluminum alloys that are not castable.
Also consider that, as a cast part, the vanes on the Vortech impeller must limit the amount of "hook" or curve in them. If they double-back at all, the part will not release from the casting mold. When cut from a billet, you can see the hook in our vanes can be quite a bit more aggressive because we have removed that manufacturing limitation. This improves low-speed output of the supercharger, starting the boost earlier.
Please do not assume that, because your impeller can go 60,000 rpm your bearings can too. They cannot. The mass of the ***** in the cages of the bearings become a factor, as does the quality of the bearings. The bearings (and how you cool them) are usually the limiting factor in how fast you can spin your supercharger.
I and my staff have actively supported Vortech engineering and materials/parts used for many years. Their engineering is top-notch. Vortech uses top quality bearings in its units, and that is why, when I am asked, I will tell you there is no bearing upgrade for the Vortech bearings because they are using the very best already. I have seen claims for "bearing upgrades" to the Vortech units by others, and we debunk them as being untrue. The bearings we use in our rebuilds here are identical to the spec called for by the Vortech engineers, and are exceptionally good.
I hope you can see that there is a significant difference between the stock cast "s" impeller and our billet performance impeller.
It should also be clear that we started from scratch, and copied no-one.
I hope that the rep at Vortech will take the time to review our webpage about our impeller
http://www.928motorsports.com/parts/...h_impeller.php and see there is no ill-will towards Vortech in its text.
And I hope that in the future, he can sell his product on its merits alone as we have done.
Carl
Carl Fausett
Member SAE
www.928Motorsports.com and
www.SuperchargerUpgrades.com
"Like" us on Facebook to get instant product updates and 928 race reports!
http://www.facebook.com/pages/928-Mo...02377033156459
In the design of our S-trim performance impeller we started with a blank sheet of white paper, and the dimensions of the Vortech S-trim volute. We hired the top fluid dynamics engineer (a specialist in just impellers) for this project, and asked him to assess the S-trim impeller and whether Vortech had left anything on the table. We had previously done this with the Powerdyne BD-series and found that we were able to get a 20% gain relative to their impeller design.
Vortech's "S" trim impeller was better than the Powerdyne, and as such we were only able to net a 15% increase in CFM. But still, that was well worth the expense of the project.
Our impeller was drawn from scratch, tested, and patented. It holds US Patent D588,158 S which it received on March 10th, 2009.
We engineered our impeller to operate at 60,000 rpm, and each impeller is dynamically spin balanced to 60,000 rpm. Each impeller is serialized, and the patent number and serial number appears on the back of our impellers after they have been spin-balanced.
We commissioned a destructive over-speed test for our impeller as well. A 10% over-speed test is common in the impeller industry, but we asked for a 20% over-speed test. The impellers were spun to 72,000 rpm without failure.
In addition to the improvements in shape and design that we can claim vs.. the original S trim impeller, there is of course the fact that our impeller is cut from billet, where the stock part is cast, then machined. The difference between a cast part and a part cut from billet is significant, not only in the ability to hold tighter tolerances, but also in the ability to use stronger aluminum alloys that are not castable.
Also consider that, as a cast part, the vanes on the Vortech impeller must limit the amount of "hook" or curve in them. If they double-back at all, the part will not release from the casting mold. When cut from a billet, you can see the hook in our vanes can be quite a bit more aggressive because we have removed that manufacturing limitation. This improves low-speed output of the supercharger, starting the boost earlier.
Please do not assume that, because your impeller can go 60,000 rpm your bearings can too. They cannot. The mass of the ***** in the cages of the bearings become a factor, as does the quality of the bearings. The bearings (and how you cool them) are usually the limiting factor in how fast you can spin your supercharger.
I and my staff have actively supported Vortech engineering and materials/parts used for many years. Their engineering is top-notch. Vortech uses top quality bearings in its units, and that is why, when I am asked, I will tell you there is no bearing upgrade for the Vortech bearings because they are using the very best already. I have seen claims for "bearing upgrades" to the Vortech units by others, and we debunk them as being untrue. The bearings we use in our rebuilds here are identical to the spec called for by the Vortech engineers, and are exceptionally good.
I hope you can see that there is a significant difference between the stock cast "s" impeller and our billet performance impeller.
It should also be clear that we started from scratch, and copied no-one.
I hope that the rep at Vortech will take the time to review our webpage about our impeller
http://www.928motorsports.com/parts/...h_impeller.php and see there is no ill-will towards Vortech in its text.
And I hope that in the future, he can sell his product on its merits alone as we have done.
Carl
Carl Fausett
Member SAE
www.928Motorsports.com and
www.SuperchargerUpgrades.com
"Like" us on Facebook to get instant product updates and 928 race reports!
http://www.facebook.com/pages/928-Mo...02377033156459
Last edited by Carl Fausett; 03-07-2013 at 07:26 AM.
03-07-2013, 07:48 AM
#67
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I thought you might enjoy these photos of our impeller in-process of manufacturing, and one of quality inspection stations.
If you are unsure of the benefits/differences between cast and billet parts,
I published a short over-view of this topic that you can download here:
http://www.928motorsports.com/install.php
Download the Article "Challenges When racing a Street Vehicle, Session II"
and see page 7 and 8.
This was part of a 2-part lecture I recently gave to the Chicago branch of the SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers).
If you are racing your Z - please grab Session 1 of that lecture from our website too. I think you will find it informative.
Carl
928 Motorsports, LLC
If you are unsure of the benefits/differences between cast and billet parts,
I published a short over-view of this topic that you can download here:
http://www.928motorsports.com/install.php
Download the Article "Challenges When racing a Street Vehicle, Session II"
and see page 7 and 8.
This was part of a 2-part lecture I recently gave to the Chicago branch of the SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers).
If you are racing your Z - please grab Session 1 of that lecture from our website too. I think you will find it informative.
Carl
928 Motorsports, LLC
03-07-2013, 11:14 AM
#68
I'm not gonna over think this and second guess myself. My blower is coming off tomorrow and being sent in on Friday. Will Have Hal spin it by hand to see how loud it is and will probably get the bearing / seals done as well as the impeller to give it a new life...
I will budget a re-build of the unit every 1-2 years or so if need be. I'm sure the abec 5's will be sufficent for what I will be pushing. Did you upgrade your barings Tim with running it at 71000 rpms? Yours seems to be running strong for awhile now
I will budget a re-build of the unit every 1-2 years or so if need be. I'm sure the abec 5's will be sufficent for what I will be pushing. Did you upgrade your barings Tim with running it at 71000 rpms? Yours seems to be running strong for awhile now
i was thinking same thing still kinda confused on his setup w 17psi on stock impeller
Last edited by Colombo; 03-07-2013 at 11:16 AM.
03-07-2013, 11:15 AM
#69
anyone heard of this site? or sent the blower here. they claim upgraded bearings. and they sell impellers??? thoughts
http://www.superchargerrebuild.com/?page_id=6
this guy has a video of him on youtube where he replaces the bearings of a vortech w "highspeed" bearings.
https://jonbondperformance.com/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbx-7ErjZkQ < video
http://www.superchargerrebuild.com/?page_id=6
this guy has a video of him on youtube where he replaces the bearings of a vortech w "highspeed" bearings.
https://jonbondperformance.com/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbx-7ErjZkQ < video
also thanks for the information carl!!! again sorry for the million questions
03-07-2013, 11:27 AM
#70
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Yeah, Dynosty got the SC off the bracket this AM and it is getting ready to ship out. I already have a Vortech 2.87 pulley that I have had and never installed. I have been running the 3.12 since install and with the new motor it should handle the 2.87 with no issues. I was hitting 370ish whp at 9psi on a dyno dynamics so I am thinking I should get up into 400 - 450whp range with the upgrades. Although I will be going from the stock compression 10.3 to a tad lower at 9.5 for a bit of safety I still think it should get up there...
I personally don't need to get into 500whp range and just want a safe, fun and reliable setup.
03-07-2013, 12:07 PM
#71
Yeah, Dynosty got the SC off the bracket this AM and it is getting ready to ship out. I already have a Vortech 2.87 pulley that I have had and never installed. I have been running the 3.12 since install and with the new motor it should handle the 2.87 with no issues. I was hitting 370ish whp at 9psi on a dyno dynamics so I am thinking I should get up into 400 - 450whp range with the upgrades. Although I will be going from the stock compression 10.3 to a tad lower at 9.5 for a bit of safety I still think it should get up there...
I personally don't need to get into 500whp range and just want a safe, fun and reliable setup.
I personally don't need to get into 500whp range and just want a safe, fun and reliable setup.
03-07-2013, 03:16 PM
#73
psi is just a measure of back pressure not power making ability, so dont get caught up in x combo makes 21 psi. its pretty much irrelevant bc no 2 setups are the same.
worry about the impeller rpm calculator and what impeller rpm equates to what HP (since they are always tied together)
worry about the impeller rpm calculator and what impeller rpm equates to what HP (since they are always tied together)
03-07-2013, 03:44 PM
#74
psi is just a measure of back pressure not power making ability, so dont get caught up in x combo makes 21 psi. its pretty much irrelevant bc no 2 setups are the same.
worry about the impeller rpm calculator and what impeller rpm equates to what HP (since they are always tied together)
worry about the impeller rpm calculator and what impeller rpm equates to what HP (since they are always tied together)
so since i bought my blower guy i bought it from never installed the whole system together but included a synapse syncronic BOV which after speaking with synapse they told me to just remove the small spring and leave the large spring on the inside and it should work great. and up to now it has they can hold tons of boost and are a pretty interesting BOV
here is video
sounds to me like the BOV flutters as it lets air out because its deff comming from the BOV area since its opposite side of the blower.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4AXg0...ature=youtu.be
Last edited by Colombo; 03-07-2013 at 04:36 PM.
03-07-2013, 06:58 PM
#76
7200 rpm limiter (revup engine)
what was your limiter set to? (you may have told me in the message if so my bad) i think when all is said and done i will dyno to 7k which will overspin it by alot just to see what power it makes, then have tuner (prob forged since im in georgia) bring it back to stock for track/street use to not overspin by so much.
03-08-2013, 06:30 AM
#77
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I think I caused some confusion about my use of the phrase "ABEC 5 bearings". It was an analogy I was making - just an example. I was not saying that Vortech uses ABEC 5 bearings. Bad choice of words on my part.
I highly doubt there is an ABEC 5 bearing to be found anywhere in the Vortech line. That's a common spec for an industrial bearing. Vortech uses two thrust bearings in opposition to locate the impeller and make sure that it does not move axially.
Given that the clearances are so tight between the impeller and the housing (often at or less than .003") a very high quality bearing with high dimensional consistency and tolerances is required.
Again - we think highly of Vortech's engineering, so if they spec bearing "x" in a particular unit, we match it. You should too, IMO.
I highly doubt there is an ABEC 5 bearing to be found anywhere in the Vortech line. That's a common spec for an industrial bearing. Vortech uses two thrust bearings in opposition to locate the impeller and make sure that it does not move axially.
Given that the clearances are so tight between the impeller and the housing (often at or less than .003") a very high quality bearing with high dimensional consistency and tolerances is required.
Again - we think highly of Vortech's engineering, so if they spec bearing "x" in a particular unit, we match it. You should too, IMO.
Last edited by Carl Fausett; 03-08-2013 at 06:33 AM.
03-08-2013, 07:25 AM
#78
I think I caused some confusion about my use of the phrase "ABEC 5 bearings". It was an analogy I was making - just an example. I was not saying that Vortech uses ABEC 5 bearings. Bad choice of words on my part.
I highly doubt there is an ABEC 5 bearing to be found anywhere in the Vortech line. That's a common spec for an industrial bearing. Vortech uses two thrust bearings in opposition to locate the impeller and make sure that it does not move axially.
Given that the clearances are so tight between the impeller and the housing (often at or less than .003") a very high quality bearing with high dimensional consistency and tolerances is required.
Again - we think highly of Vortech's engineering, so if they spec bearing "x" in a particular unit, we match it. You should too, IMO.
I highly doubt there is an ABEC 5 bearing to be found anywhere in the Vortech line. That's a common spec for an industrial bearing. Vortech uses two thrust bearings in opposition to locate the impeller and make sure that it does not move axially.
Given that the clearances are so tight between the impeller and the housing (often at or less than .003") a very high quality bearing with high dimensional consistency and tolerances is required.
Again - we think highly of Vortech's engineering, so if they spec bearing "x" in a particular unit, we match it. You should too, IMO.
carl i should have blower off this weekend and contact you again once i ship it out. the knowledge is much appreciated. Question #344556767 to those w the vortech (this may be a stupid question) but i have always ran this synapse bov which has multiple vacuum ports 1 goes dirrectly to the vortech (the nipple off the front of blower) and the other straight to intake manifold. my question is because im looking at going with a mondo or another bypass valve that has been tried and true like the Tial Q that the mustang vortech guys seem to praise with my new setup and notice it only has 1 nipple? do you guys T off this nipple and send 1 to manifold and 1 to blower or what? again sorry if its a stupid question. quick search at work and got no answer.
03-08-2013, 08:33 AM
#80
+1 what OldManZ said...same setup as the standard Vortech Bypass Valve for the Mondo...
Also, you can't use the stock piping flange for the Mondo since it's a 3 bolt and stock is 2 bolt; you'll have to weld a new flange on the piping...for me, the Mondo is so big that I just closed up the stock hole for the bypass valve and had my Mondo welded onto the intercooler...
carl i should have blower off this weekend and contact you again once i ship it out. the knowledge is much appreciated.
Question #344556767 to those w the vortech (this may be a stupid question) but i have always ran this synapse bov which has multiple vacuum ports 1 goes dirrectly to the vortech (the nipple off the front of blower) and the other straight to intake manifold. my question is because im looking at going with a mondo or another bypass valve that has been tried and true like the Tial Q that the mustang vortech guys seem to praise with my new setup and notice it only has 1 nipple? do you guys T off this nipple and send 1 to manifold and 1 to blower or what? again sorry if its a stupid question. quick search at work and got no answer.
Also, you can't use the stock piping flange for the Mondo since it's a 3 bolt and stock is 2 bolt; you'll have to weld a new flange on the piping...for me, the Mondo is so big that I just closed up the stock hole for the bypass valve and had my Mondo welded onto the intercooler...
carl i should have blower off this weekend and contact you again once i ship it out. the knowledge is much appreciated. Question #344556767 to those w the vortech (this may be a stupid question) but i have always ran this synapse bov which has multiple vacuum ports 1 goes dirrectly to the vortech (the nipple off the front of blower) and the other straight to intake manifold. my question is because im looking at going with a mondo or another bypass valve that has been tried and true like the Tial Q that the mustang vortech guys seem to praise with my new setup and notice it only has 1 nipple? do you guys T off this nipple and send 1 to manifold and 1 to blower or what? again sorry if its a stupid question. quick search at work and got no answer.