Dr Bonz

iTrader: (1)

I'm sorry, but I gotta say it.

WHAT AN A$$!

Turbo Ed

mcduck
I think from your recent posts you are starting to get it and certainly at least a number of the other guys are obviously open minded enough to THINK about what I have said. Which was obviously my objective in the first place. Just a couple of things, before I start a new thread in an to attempt to win our bet!!

1) You have my genuine condolences for what you have been through, as outlined on your other thread. One would not wish that on someone you really did not like and I certainly have no such feelings towards you.

2) It would have been only fair to give me a genuine benchmark!
If you do not want to cover all the labor involved, ( which, given your other thread, I quite understand), at least a clear outline of the parts involved, together with their cost, would have been reasonable. In their absence, I am simply going to have to make some assumptions, I guess. Could you just confirm please that your $7,000.00 figure, included all the NA mods which preceded the blower?

3) I hope you understand, ( even if some others do not), the only reason I mentioned my previous "real world" experience, was in response to earlier postings, suggesting I did not have any. Given both my professional experince AND years of wife's complaints about hours/days/months spent in the garage, it was just a little hard for me to take, that's all!!

4) I am going to be away for a couple of weeks and unable to post, so please do not think I am welshing on our bet, when the thread does not start straight away. It will be close to the end of the month before I can get back to it.

Rest assured, I am well aware that most people do not have my background or experience and at least one of my two suggested approaches should be able to be undertaken by the average guy, using local tradespeople.

Finally, I certainly hope you get on top of the issues outlined in your other thread, without too much further grief,

all the best,

Ed

mcduck

I look forward to hearing more from you Ed... sounds like you can make great contributions to this site. As has been harped on before, I think your initial posts came off as a little brash... I know I took them that way. In any case, I'm glad you're here and willing to share your expertise.

As for the cost of my prior mods, I don't think that isn't relevant. I would have still done those anyways. This has always been planned as a phased project. When it was time to go FI, it still came down to Vortech SC or GReddy TT... cost and complexity (for install and tuning) became the decisive factors.

Had I not done anything to my car prior, I would still have eventually faced this choice. So, I think it does not matter whether I start at 260rwhp and end up at 420rwhp or start at 230rwhp and end up 380rwhp... either way it would have been a gain of 140-160. Just estimate the costs to build a TT kit that would produce those types of gains (or better) and, of course, better torque gains.

WHAT?!?! Where??? I wanna see! Who just walked by, Bonz? Please tell me you're talking about a chick... oh.... wait.... you were just commenting on the responses here, weren't you? Oops... guess everyone knows where my mind is today.

esemes

i too felt this way, however, its hard to tell one's ture intentions thru typed correspondences...


i am in the final planning stages of my FI kit, and have sworn to the vortech route (many many reasons) but will be all ears to gain as much knowledge from Ed as i can...

knowledge is power, right??

-eS

Dr Bonz

iTrader: (1)

fluidz

hmmmmmm! licky lic.........yummy!

PhoenixINX

...

PhoenixINX

All I can say is...

mcduck

MMmmmm... I guess I can live with Crissy Moran being the one to hijack my thread... after all...

Steve@Evolution

iTrader: (3)

Hijacking thread!!!
Turbo Ed - here is another dyno graph for a street car of mine. It's a Honda four banger fwd with a snail. Feel free to comment on it.

mcduck

Holy Cr@p!!!

Impressive Evo... what generates the steep climb at 5500rpm? Also... 9000rpm redline... sweeeeeet!

STR8OUT

Turbo_Ed, what is up with coming out of the woodwork so DAMN strong!

Comon man, I hope that is not how you make friends in real life (trying to turn everything into a pissing contest...) I will also be waiting anxiously to see what you come up with. Good luck with what your doing, I hope it works out for you.

Steve@Evolution

iTrader: (3)

That is when my turbo start spinning reaching full boost over 23 pound. Lag is not always a bad thing, just bad on the street.

Baumer

iTrader: (3)

Is that the turbo for the S2K you guys did at Evolution? I thought I remembered reading in SuperStreet that it was 505 whp and the 9000 rpm redline would make sense too. Sweet car, I can't imagine numbers at 30psi.

Jeff@Evolution

No, this dyno graph is from our white turbo civic HB. The Turbo S2000 made samiliar power with the exact same turbo setup. Both broke 500+ HP. The civic traps 133mph at the track.

g356gear

iTrader: (12)

CLASSIC.....LOL

Loren04G35

First to get this out of the way, there are 2 things that determine HP levels based on a forced induction system: efficiency and drivetrain losses. When looking at superchargers, while roots (scroll type) superchargers make boost at lower rpms, they have the least efficient compressors and take the most power to drive. Roots blowers only have a compressor efficiency of 60% while centrifugals are in the 72-77% efficiency range. Efficiency is the heating of the air charge in the process of compressing it. Remember that a centrifugal SC is essentially a modern turbo compressor wheel turned off the crank of the engine. The wheel design is over 20 years beyond scroll design. The only way you could gain back is a much more efficient intercooler, but this does not exist in the Stillen kit. In their case it is smaller and due to placement, far less efficient. If both systems are using similar intercoolers, it is still physically impossible for a roots blower to make the same power as a centrifugal at the same boost levels and rpms due to compressor efficiencies. The centrifugal is actually 20-28 % ahead in power potential. This is why Stillen won't make the larger numbers of Vortech or ATI.

Since a modern turbo and a centrifugal SC will have similar compressor wheels, they will have similar efficiencies at the same boost levels. A centrifugal SC though needs to drive off the crank of the engine. This uses HP from the engine. Turbos run off exhaust pressure, which is just wasted energy. A supercharger can actually consule 20% of the power it creates to drive the compressor. this is why in an apples to apples test with the same wheel efficiency and similar intercoolers, turbo/turbos will always make more power. It is very possible that the turbo system running less boost could make more power than the centrifugal due to the drivetrain losses.

Now that is out of the way and now I can give the real facts on "are under the curve." Turbo Ed, you seem to understand the basic concept, just not the execution. First it is absolutely true that The Stillen roots kit will put out over 30 lb-ft more torque at 2500 rpms that its centrifugal competitiors. Does this matter? No. How much time do you spend at that rpm? Here is a hint, if you are racing you might only see it at launch in 1st. Do you personally race with rulse like you have to shift by 4000 rpms? Area of the curve only relates to the are being applied. That is the rpms being used in a race. If you are shifting at the stock redline of 6600 rpms, you will only drop to 4000 rpms in 2nd, 4600 rpms in 3rd and 5200 rpms in 4th, 5th and 6th. In the reality of racing, only from 5000+ really matters. Considering that at 4000 rpms, the centrifugal systems are already making more torque and HP than the roots based system, the roots doesn't have a chance.

Turbo Ed, the real issues you have seem to be more of personal preference. That is, the issues of driveability versus gains. A roots SC will feel like just driving a larger displacement engine with an adundance of torque all the time. The downside is significantly less top end power. Turbos lack the low end response and feel like a stock engine until the exhaust volume builds to spool them up. Hard boost spikes aren't everyone's cup of tea why driving in stop and go traffic. They do have the best power capability though. A centrifugal is the compromise between the 2. It has better low-end response than stock and good top end power capability.

My personal opinion is that I think the centrifugals (particularly Vortech) is the best option for a stock engine car. If you didn't need to have a gay looking hood scoop or a bubble hood for the roots kit, it could be a viable option. But it loses out for asthetics and cost in my book. If your going into the motor with a set of rods and low compression pistons, you are doing it for power capability. Then I wouldn't waste the time on an SC kit and go turbo instead. If the point is to make the most power by spending a lot on an engine, why would you short change yourself on what you bolt onto it? My $.02.

chaparro78

iTrader: (2)

First off, Mcduck - awesome car, great numbers.

Well damn, if I learned anything after reading this 30 min thread was that Ed is old. Let me say not all engineers are d1cks (like me, electronics engineer and not a *** ). Well Ed you have been doing this for 40 years. You must be at least 65 then. An average man lives to be 72. That only gives you a few more years so I can see why you are upset with the world. I on the other hand am 26 and by the law of averages still have a long time to live and a long time to improve on my car. I can see why you are in a rush to get that perfect kit on a Z before you die . I hope it happns so that after you pass the pearly gates ( or the gates of hell, whichever) we can look at the kit you make and put it on our cars as we still will have pleanty of time in or lives to enjoy it. Sorry guys I was in a sarcastic mood tonight

Also, prayers to the family of the Army soldier that recently died in Iraq and thanks and more prayers to my fellow Marines still in action.

mcduck

Man... this thread was resurrected from nowhere!

Loren, thanks for the detailed information. Hopefully, that will clarify some of the theoretical debate concerning the FI options available. I still say for the money I made the best choice. Had I had a bigger budget, definitely the Greddy would have been my selection. I never considered the Stillen...

The funny thing is, as I was discussing this same topic with Doug Stewart of Crawford Z Car at ZdayZ, he pointed out the same thing Loren did above.... when you are racing, when are you going to need low RPM power? if you are racing from a launch, for 1st gear only (or whatever gear you launch in... ) After that, you're motor will stay in the 4000+rpm range if you are driving to win.

Can't be happier with my car's performance. A 1 or 2 gear drop and launch from a roll is absolutely exhilarating!

whosdady

iTrader: (6)

Very well said. I would have to agree 100% with your response, minus the Vortech part of course. You know I'm going to be biased

The ATI C2 blower has an 80K redline impeller speed while the Vortech V2 blower has a 53K redline impeller speed. A Vortech owner is already over the safety/efficency range with a 9lbs pulley and a raised rev limiter. I would place the ATI kit one step closer to a turbo than the Vortech kit because of this fact. Granted with various upgrades like new bearings, O rings and a larger IC... the Vortec kit could hold its ground with the ATI kit.

I have been waiting a long time for a S/Ced 350Z with test pipes and good headers to compare numbers at the same PSI levels as a turbo 350Z. I still feel the turbo will produce more HP per PSI but I think it will be a lot closer than anyone thinks. After 11PSI-12PSI (450RWHP) There is no question the turbo takes the cake. However in my opinion, at 450rwhp (and I don't mean one dyno pull I might add) you must be willing to do a lot of work to the engine, tranny, cooling systems (oil temps and engine temps) ect. I would guess you could spend close $25K in perforamnce upgrades/tuning/installation before you are done.

With this car, my intentions are to stay below the 440rwhp-450rwhp mark and thus the S/C is a better choice for me because the supercharger is easier on the engine and tranny. Mainly in part because it produces less heat on these items.

By the way, I never considerd the stillen S/C either. I do have their exhaust but would not have the blower on my car.