Ultimate Racing on Fuel AND Timing !
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Ultimate Racing on Fuel AND Timing !
I've been exchanging emails with a very nice guy, Darryl, from Ultimate Racing, in Canada, about fuel/timing solutions for the Greddy TT kit.
I'd like to post a few quotes from the emails for the general good of the community, so I hope he won't get upset at me for doing so.
As for running more boost pressure (8psi) I don't think you're prepared for what's coming. We have found some very serious problems with the stock fuel system that will cause fuel pressure to drop. THIS OCCURS WHETHER OR NOT A FUEL PRESSURE REGULATOR AND/OR UPGRADED PUMP ARE PRESENT. We truly believe the idea of using the Aeromotive Digital FMU is a BAND AID solution. If you think about it, the inline fuel pump is voltage regulated. Voltage is constantly fluctuating on a day-to-day basis. That is just the nature of electrical components in cars. What if you decide to install a large stereo system? Voltage will drop to the inline fuel pump, fuel pressure will decrease, and Air/Fuel mixtures will go leaner. This is most definitely the reason why everyone is having problems holding a steady tune.
The fuel system we've released is quite extraordinary. I honestly don't think any of the competitors, whether it be Turbo or Supercharger, have done enough testing. When we originally designed our Twin Turbo Kit, we tested to see if the stock fuel pump was up to par. Fuel pressure began to drop fast while in boost so we decided to upgrade the fuel pump (standard procedure when designing a turbo kit). With the fuel pump installed fuel pressure still began to drop! This told us that a fuel return line was definitely necessary. We went ahead and installed a boost dependant fuel pressure regulator as well. This should've did the trick, but it didn't. We were left scratching our heads for several days. After tearing apart the factory fuel system, we found the problem. For the most part it has to do
with the dual fuel tank design. We made some modifications, changed the fuel pump (again) and there it was, rock solid fuel pressure.
Their fuel solution includes:
- Modified Fuel Rails (supplied by the customer)
- Modifed Fuel Pump Assembly (supplied bv the customer)
- Aluminum Fuel Y-Block
- Boost Dependant Fuel Pressure Regulator (Dual Port)
- Fuel Lines (Return line included)
- Custom 255lph Intank Fuel Pump
All this for an acceptable core charge, which I won't mention without permission.
These parts are all essential to running boost on the 350z. We've even had a couple Greddy turbo'd 350z's here which were experiencing the same problem. Fuel pressure began to drop above 5000rpm. Mind you, this is at 5.5psi!
With regards to timing, he mentioned the following:
We have been very successful retarding timing with the E-Manage. We've never tried advancing as we've never had a need to advance. I can provide you a timing harness that would allow you to retard timing. For this, I would need you to send in your E-Manage as well. You will lose the original map provided by Greddy. The timing harness is $70 which will include detailed instructions on how to wire everything up. You will also need a connectivity cable as well as the latest E-Manage software in order to tune your own setup. This is $150 and includes the latest version 1.11 software which is very hard to obtain.
So now, does this sound like it's worth a shot ? I plan on utilizing AT LEAST the timing solution via the eManage... but I think I may well do both! =) Hopefully I can find someone in the NY/NJ/PA area who can use the eManage software to tune things properly... any suggestions ?
PS: I think if this works this can be monumental, so I hope you guys digest every piece of this thoroughly. Let's begin the discussion.
I'd like to post a few quotes from the emails for the general good of the community, so I hope he won't get upset at me for doing so.
As for running more boost pressure (8psi) I don't think you're prepared for what's coming. We have found some very serious problems with the stock fuel system that will cause fuel pressure to drop. THIS OCCURS WHETHER OR NOT A FUEL PRESSURE REGULATOR AND/OR UPGRADED PUMP ARE PRESENT. We truly believe the idea of using the Aeromotive Digital FMU is a BAND AID solution. If you think about it, the inline fuel pump is voltage regulated. Voltage is constantly fluctuating on a day-to-day basis. That is just the nature of electrical components in cars. What if you decide to install a large stereo system? Voltage will drop to the inline fuel pump, fuel pressure will decrease, and Air/Fuel mixtures will go leaner. This is most definitely the reason why everyone is having problems holding a steady tune.
The fuel system we've released is quite extraordinary. I honestly don't think any of the competitors, whether it be Turbo or Supercharger, have done enough testing. When we originally designed our Twin Turbo Kit, we tested to see if the stock fuel pump was up to par. Fuel pressure began to drop fast while in boost so we decided to upgrade the fuel pump (standard procedure when designing a turbo kit). With the fuel pump installed fuel pressure still began to drop! This told us that a fuel return line was definitely necessary. We went ahead and installed a boost dependant fuel pressure regulator as well. This should've did the trick, but it didn't. We were left scratching our heads for several days. After tearing apart the factory fuel system, we found the problem. For the most part it has to do
with the dual fuel tank design. We made some modifications, changed the fuel pump (again) and there it was, rock solid fuel pressure.
- Modified Fuel Rails (supplied by the customer)
- Modifed Fuel Pump Assembly (supplied bv the customer)
- Aluminum Fuel Y-Block
- Boost Dependant Fuel Pressure Regulator (Dual Port)
- Fuel Lines (Return line included)
- Custom 255lph Intank Fuel Pump
All this for an acceptable core charge, which I won't mention without permission.
These parts are all essential to running boost on the 350z. We've even had a couple Greddy turbo'd 350z's here which were experiencing the same problem. Fuel pressure began to drop above 5000rpm. Mind you, this is at 5.5psi!
With regards to timing, he mentioned the following:
We have been very successful retarding timing with the E-Manage. We've never tried advancing as we've never had a need to advance. I can provide you a timing harness that would allow you to retard timing. For this, I would need you to send in your E-Manage as well. You will lose the original map provided by Greddy. The timing harness is $70 which will include detailed instructions on how to wire everything up. You will also need a connectivity cable as well as the latest E-Manage software in order to tune your own setup. This is $150 and includes the latest version 1.11 software which is very hard to obtain.
So now, does this sound like it's worth a shot ? I plan on utilizing AT LEAST the timing solution via the eManage... but I think I may well do both! =) Hopefully I can find someone in the NY/NJ/PA area who can use the eManage software to tune things properly... any suggestions ?
PS: I think if this works this can be monumental, so I hope you guys digest every piece of this thoroughly. Let's begin the discussion.
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From: Earth
If he truly knew what he was talking about he would know that advancing timing with a piggyback unit is absolutely impossible. I've never had to readjust my tune because of varying voltages. The DFMU has a voltage regulator to maintain a steady output voltage to avoid just such a problem.
I personally don't see the benefit of adding a return line when companies such as Vortech have devised a FPR with our returnless system. A larger diameter fuel line from the tank to a larger diameter fuel rail could be a benefit, but other than that, I just don't see it. Maybe if you were boosting 15+ PSI.
Oh and the greddy software is not very hard to obtain. I got it for free, and you can buy it from various vendors online. Namely www.mohdparts.com
Sounds like you're talking to a salesman, you need to talk to the engineer who designed it and have him give us the straight skinny about why they designed this new system.
I personally don't see the benefit of adding a return line when companies such as Vortech have devised a FPR with our returnless system. A larger diameter fuel line from the tank to a larger diameter fuel rail could be a benefit, but other than that, I just don't see it. Maybe if you were boosting 15+ PSI.
Oh and the greddy software is not very hard to obtain. I got it for free, and you can buy it from various vendors online. Namely www.mohdparts.com
Sounds like you're talking to a salesman, you need to talk to the engineer who designed it and have him give us the straight skinny about why they designed this new system.
Charter Member #34
Joined: May 2002
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From: -
i think the problems they ran into with the stock setup is the stock regulator is in the tank, right after the pump. this means the regulator will try and dump fuel over 54psi back into the tank, before it ever reaches the fuel rail.
if you put a 255lph pump in place of the stock (and make no other changes), here is what happens:
the pump overcomes the "dumping" rate of the intank regulator at idle.. fuel pressure goes up to about 70-75psi at idle. this will be the highest fuel pressure reached, because as RPMs climb, the fuel pressure lowers. This is because the in-tank regulator is still trying to dump everything over 54psi.
this is what happens on greddy kits, where the injectors are changed, but not the pump:
the 440s can use more fuel than the stock pump can push at high rpms. this makes the stock regulator useless, as there is not enough flow to generate the 54psi the car is tuned to stock. the fuel pressure drops at high rpm.
even on greddy kits, where an upgraded pump is installed, the fuel pressure will act just like the example of the stock injectors and upgraded pump. high at idle... drops while RPMs climb (but not less than stock pressure).
UR has the correct answer...
you need a large intank fuel pump (and route the fuel feed line around the in tank regulator), with a boost dependant, rising-rate regulator on a return fuel line.
this way you dial in the stock pressure at idle (vacuum) on the new regulator, and then dial in the rising rate (Boost Press : Fuel Pressure) you need on the regulator.
i personally am going to go this route within the next 2 weeks, with some slight modifications... primarily to get away from the DFMU (which has NEVER given me problems, I just need more conventional fuel delivery as my future mods will be hampered by a returnless fuel system)
i am going to re-wire the fuel pump relay to the Tsunami Inline pump I currently have the DFMU controlling. Then drop a new fuel line into the tank from the top of the assembly, which by-passes the intank pump and regulator. along with this, i am putting a multi-role regulator on a return fuel line (which will do both stock pressure up to 0 vacuum, and then boost dependant fuel pressure.
i am also going to contact UR about the modified fuel rails and Y-block, and might pick those up... the rest of thier solution i am sourcing myself.
please note i still am using stock injectors, and will continue to use my super-afc2 after the DFMU is replaced, for fine tuning. bigger injectors are next, along with something to control them..
m
if you put a 255lph pump in place of the stock (and make no other changes), here is what happens:
the pump overcomes the "dumping" rate of the intank regulator at idle.. fuel pressure goes up to about 70-75psi at idle. this will be the highest fuel pressure reached, because as RPMs climb, the fuel pressure lowers. This is because the in-tank regulator is still trying to dump everything over 54psi.
this is what happens on greddy kits, where the injectors are changed, but not the pump:
the 440s can use more fuel than the stock pump can push at high rpms. this makes the stock regulator useless, as there is not enough flow to generate the 54psi the car is tuned to stock. the fuel pressure drops at high rpm.
even on greddy kits, where an upgraded pump is installed, the fuel pressure will act just like the example of the stock injectors and upgraded pump. high at idle... drops while RPMs climb (but not less than stock pressure).
UR has the correct answer...
you need a large intank fuel pump (and route the fuel feed line around the in tank regulator), with a boost dependant, rising-rate regulator on a return fuel line.
this way you dial in the stock pressure at idle (vacuum) on the new regulator, and then dial in the rising rate (Boost Press : Fuel Pressure) you need on the regulator.
i personally am going to go this route within the next 2 weeks, with some slight modifications... primarily to get away from the DFMU (which has NEVER given me problems, I just need more conventional fuel delivery as my future mods will be hampered by a returnless fuel system)
i am going to re-wire the fuel pump relay to the Tsunami Inline pump I currently have the DFMU controlling. Then drop a new fuel line into the tank from the top of the assembly, which by-passes the intank pump and regulator. along with this, i am putting a multi-role regulator on a return fuel line (which will do both stock pressure up to 0 vacuum, and then boost dependant fuel pressure.
i am also going to contact UR about the modified fuel rails and Y-block, and might pick those up... the rest of thier solution i am sourcing myself.
please note i still am using stock injectors, and will continue to use my super-afc2 after the DFMU is replaced, for fine tuning. bigger injectors are next, along with something to control them..
m
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From: Earth
Thank you for clearing that up. My bad.
To summarize if I understand this correctly. The only system not affected by this problem would be the ATI/DFMU setup because it raises fuel pressure/volume after the stock FPR.
Why aren't the TechnoSquare cars seeing this problem?
To summarize if I understand this correctly. The only system not affected by this problem would be the ATI/DFMU setup because it raises fuel pressure/volume after the stock FPR.
Why aren't the TechnoSquare cars seeing this problem?
Charter Member #34
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 1,228
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From: -
well get this...
my current system is the 255lph intank + DFMU & aux inline pump, stock injectors.
here is what mine does:
at idle fuel pressure is about 70psi.
as i go up in RPMs (but no boost!) i see the pressure drop all the way to about 50psi at redline.
as i go up in RPMs (with boost!) i see the fuel pressure drop for a second, then shoot back up to 85psi when i am running 8.5psi. when I run 10psi, the autometer sender is maxed out at 100psi.
who said TS cars are not seeing this? i don't know if anyone with PE 380cc's and a TS flash have been watching Fuel Pressure... i remember Max was told to get a pump and regulator before he was going to see Tadashi... I didn't follow up on those results...
actually, i am still waiting for a dyno sheet from any PE TT kit, but that is another story...
m
my current system is the 255lph intank + DFMU & aux inline pump, stock injectors.
here is what mine does:
at idle fuel pressure is about 70psi.
as i go up in RPMs (but no boost!) i see the pressure drop all the way to about 50psi at redline.
as i go up in RPMs (with boost!) i see the fuel pressure drop for a second, then shoot back up to 85psi when i am running 8.5psi. when I run 10psi, the autometer sender is maxed out at 100psi.
who said TS cars are not seeing this? i don't know if anyone with PE 380cc's and a TS flash have been watching Fuel Pressure... i remember Max was told to get a pump and regulator before he was going to see Tadashi... I didn't follow up on those results...
actually, i am still waiting for a dyno sheet from any PE TT kit, but that is another story...
m
I like UR and I trust them 
and Darryl is a great guy and very helpful.
I think I will be the first one to have the UR TT and fuel system among other thing they are doing for me and I will keep you guys posted about the results.
Az
and Darryl is a great guy and very helpful.I think I will be the first one to have the UR TT and fuel system
among other thing they are doing for me and I will keep you guys posted about the results.Az
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Originally posted by jesseenglish
Oh and the greddy software is not very hard to obtain. I got it for free, and you can buy it from various vendors online. Namely www.mohdparts.com
Oh and the greddy software is not very hard to obtain. I got it for free, and you can buy it from various vendors online. Namely www.mohdparts.com
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From: Detroit, The Motor City
Originally posted by slay2k
Well the cheapest on there is $295... he's offering it at half of that =)
Well the cheapest on there is $295... he's offering it at half of that =)
If you get an e-01 it will update your emanage software to the newest version anyways. And if you have to initalize the emanage search for the post I made that shows the stock Greddy fuel map and reinput all the values. If your running a decent fuel system the greddy map is not for you. You need to dyno tune the car.
As far as the $75 ignition harness goes, I would not do that. Search for the post I made a few days ago about how to build your own, it's very simple. You just need the ignition harness (from mohdparts.com or whatever, very good place to get emanage stuff) and some components from Radio shack that total $6. I did a very complete schematic, you should be able to do it very easily.
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etx,
I admire your knowledge in the area, and I want to ask you what you would recommend I do with the fuel/timing at the STOCK psi...
My kit is coming on Monday (2 days!), and I want to be able to ride around on the stock PSI for a little bit without boosting it up first. But I *do* want to boost to 8 after a short while, so what would you recommend I do in that case ? Leave it completely stock, and then figure out a fuel/timing solution for the higher PSI ? If so, should I go with UR's fuel system ? And try to use the eManage for timing ?
Thanks much.
-slay
I admire your knowledge in the area, and I want to ask you what you would recommend I do with the fuel/timing at the STOCK psi...
My kit is coming on Monday (2 days!), and I want to be able to ride around on the stock PSI for a little bit without boosting it up first. But I *do* want to boost to 8 after a short while, so what would you recommend I do in that case ? Leave it completely stock, and then figure out a fuel/timing solution for the higher PSI ? If so, should I go with UR's fuel system ? And try to use the eManage for timing ?
Thanks much.
-slay
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From: Earth
Originally posted by etx
I think the UR guy is talking about the software update on the actual emanage unit, not the support software for the PC.
I think the UR guy is talking about the software update on the actual emanage unit, not the support software for the PC.
Support tool software and cable are available for $119 on mohdparts. Like I said though, I downloaded it for free and the cable can be purchased for under $30 from other sources.
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