Ha Ha ok you got a deal!!! Yea my brain runs so hot im going to fabricate an intercooler to strap to my forehead!!!

 

Alpine...with TT's, the issue issue I cam refering to is the physical nature of having hot exhuast gases run the turbine. The exhaust housing is incredibly hot, and this heat does two things. It heats up the compressor side of the the turbo, which heats up the intact charge, and it also just physcially heats up the engine bay and everything around it. Hoses, the block. coolant etc. So heat management becomes essential. This is one reason I prefer cast manifolds over tubular steel. Cast iron manifolds containt heat better...and ideally, you want to keep the heat trapped inside the manifold, for better exhaust gas scavenging effects...the turbos will repond better.

We wrap EVERYTHING that is even close to the exhuast housing with heat wrap for protection. And the huge FMIC cools down the intake charge tremendoulsy before it enters the engine. Under constant track and boost conditions, your oil and coolant temps will rise, so from that perspective, I'd upgrade oil and coolant cooling capabilities.

Now as stated, the SC's are certainly not immune to heat related issues. But the issue is isolated right there inside the compressor. The compressor will get HOT....it will...even with constant lube...either self contained in the case of the ATI, or an engine oil supply as in the Vortech. The Stillen is just one big hot box...I dont like the design for that reason. As in the case of the Greddy, the ATI and Vortech FMIC's will cool the intake charge sufficiently before it enters the throttle body.


When are you coming for a ride in my car? Did you know I am leaving for Charlotte NC in 6 weeks...time is ticking. s Seeya joe.

 

I think the Dreamworkes S/C is the one that is the most interesting (yet also most likely to never reach the market).

The heat issue is really only significantly different on the Non-intercooled Stillen S/C. With this setup, the S/C will heat up over time, and your performance will drop because there is no I/C to help cool the air. With the intercooled Stillen setup, and all the other S/C and turbo setups, you have the same type of heat issues GQ was mentioning above. However, in all these cases the I/C will help keep the intake air at a relatively cool temp and therefore the performance won't change as much as the engine heats up.

I think the reasons most people don't run the Stillen setup is becuse you need to mod the hood and because it doesn't have that high peak power that the other S/C's and turbo's provide (even though it may have a better torque curve than the other S/C's, much more similar to a turbo setup, and better on the extremely low end (sub-2500 RPM).

-D'oh!

 

What makes you say it wont make it to production?

"Starting with the new 350Z car Dream Workes has developed an aqua-cooled supercharger kit legal for all 50 states including CARB certification. Orders can be placed and shipping should begin within 90 days. This supercharger kit is also available for the 3.5L Maxima, Altima, Murano, Infinity G35, I35, FX35 as well as the Japanese versions."

http://www.dreamworkesracing.com/cgi...eng&page=About

You can order one here.

http://www.dreamworkesracing.com/cgi...&L=eng&P=35071

 

Alpine wrote:

I just checked this quickly, so don't lose it here if I am wrong, this is for the 300zx, here is a link at JWT talking about there new kit for the 350z, that is still "coming"
.....

JWT is useing the same turbo and downpipe that was developed for use on the 300ZX. The default VQ35 (G35 and 350Z) kit will use the "exact same" 530BB turbos as sold for 300ZX. I posted the 530BB picture 'cause someone asked what turbos? were going to be offered. In that same vein, the 530BBs should be upgradeable to 700BBs if someone really wants to go that far.

 

Wow, I skip a day and the thread explodes!

D'oh -- completely agree about centri SC being probably just fine for the track. The centri SC will be very peaky -- quick shifts! -- and you can't really do too much with dropping the CR and upping the boost, tho. Beware the centri SC lube requirements, either as part of the engine oil lube circuit or its own seperate.

For AutoX, I found today that the SCCA SM classes only allow FI on 3.0 or less displacement. (Even though factory FI in this category is up to 4.0l....) So the Z would have a big problem classifying there -- FI seems like it would put you into pure modified, which means race roll cage and a whole lot of work to be competitive!!!

Alpine, you're welcome -- good discussions like this are fun and interesting.

About the turbo corner exit: back in the F1 days of turbos and unlimited quantities of exotic fuels, they found the best possible solution to lag: use carbon-carbon brakes, and just keep on the power the whole time to keep the turbo spooled up!!! Try this in a Z, or any reasonable car, and you will shred your pads mighty quick..... Bottom line: you need throttle and load to keep the turbo spooled -- rpm's alone are not enough.

And yes, the issue is upsetting the car coming out of the corner with the sudden app of power. It's not sufficient to have more base power, you need to have the power be controlled. Setting up race cars for turbos centers around getting them enough rear tire to avoid disaster if the turbo kick is missjudged -- unfortunately, that means a lot of front end changes too, to get back to a neutral handling. And driving a turbo car is also a lot different than an NA car; I've heard it best described as (in the extreme) slash n burn driving. All depends on how violent the turbo kick is, and how much lag before it hits.

Seperate reply on the heat issue.....

-frank

 

Turbos and Roots and centri SC's all have different issues with heat.

1) Turbos:
- Main heat issue is the turbine being driven by the hot hot hot exhaust. Bearings get cooked. Or more accurately coked. (Oil turning to coke, neither the drinkable nor abusable kind.) So turbos have very very very hot compressor sides, and the exhaust manifolds get far hotter in a turbo app. You must use cast or titanium exhaust manifolds -- very expensive options. The turbine will radiate this huge heat to anything near it; in a tight install, like on a v-motor like our VQ35, this can mean you need a lot of heat shielding. (If you read the Greddy install manual, you will realize how critical it is to properly shield important things like the wiring harness and the fuel line!)
- Some turbos are only oil cooled (plumbed into the engine oil supply), some also get engine coolant -- more cooling is better.
- Intake temps in a turbo app can be nicely low: the compressing process in a turbo is very efficient (when the turbo is at a high efficiency op region), and the plumbing provides for a large FMIC.
- Lastly, when a turbo is off boost, it is not so heat stressed, it is cooler. So heat problems are transient.

2) centri SC's:
- No real heat problems: the compression process is almost as efficient as a turbo, and has the same plumbing provisions for FMIC. Does require lube for the upratio speed drive; some of these are self-contained, some are engine oil, some are internal belt.
- Best upratio arrangement is probably self-lubed planteary, as then the compressor does not need to carry the side load of a belt and doesn't have to isolate high oil pressure. But maybe some concern if self-lubed is run non-stop at moderate high boost -- not high enough to be in the high-efficiency realm, not low enough to be low -- could make things very very hot.
- The compressor does get hot, but does not require extensive heat shielding, and the temps are well within the bounds of regular oils.

3) Roots SC's:
- Heat problem is caused by inefficiency of external compression. Roots is a blower -- it just moves air, does not compress it. Compression happens as a consequence of moving more air than the egine needs, but that's external compression and it is very inefficient, meaning that the temp of the air is greatly increased in the process of compressing it. (In contrast turbo compressors actually compress the air in the process of also moving it.)
- Unfortunately, the exit geometry of the Roots blower is not plumbing-friendly, making intercooling difficult. Air-water systems work, but are not nearly as good as a giant air-air FMIC.
- Net result is that intake temps are higher with a Roots blower than with a turbo for a similar psi of boost.
- Also, the Roots blower is always operating, so there is not much break from intermittent part-throttle operation.
- Water injection works (well), but needs to be carefully applied/tuned, and pitty the poor soul who runs dry!
- Intake temps with the Roots vary the most with environmental variations (because the IC is not as efficient and the starting point is higher vs turbo), which can cause problems as the world around you heats up.
- I personally would never consider running a non-IC Roots app because the temp/pressure of the intake will vary too much and have the potential to get very very very hot. Staggeringly hot.


So, concerns with heat vary with application: the centri guys say what heat, the turbo guys wrap the world in nomex and tin foil, and the Roots guys say I would have run better but its really hot out there so I backed off a bit to save my motor.....

-frank

 

CT , two inputs on ypur post:

"- Also, the Roots blower is always operating, so there is not much break from intermittent part-throttle operation."

Not really true , most street setups provide a "bypass" valve,it only closes when throttle is pressed hard and boost is required. At typical cruise there is no boost or the associated heat rise. WIth bypass open, the only main losses are belt and gear case and these only sap a few single digit hp at most. For example an Eaton M90 provides an integral bypass.

Roots:
"Heat problem is caused by inefficiency of external compression. Roots is a blower -- it just moves air, does not compress it"

True with a "roots" , not totally so with a twin Screw compressor. A twin screw (Lysolm design) pump actual does produce internal compression. This is why it generates some heat at idle or very low RPM and does not drop off as sharply at higher RPM when compared to a Roots. All in all a TS is a more advanced design than the legacy roots or even the twisted vane Eaton

Basically a Root and TS may look alike but they do differ in several area. So TS's shoudl be mentioned.

 

Two more little things in response to Alpine:

1) You mentioned upgrading bearings and blades to deal with turbo heat in high boost apps. Well, no -- no upgrades are possible for particular turbos. Apps are generally designed for a specific turbo, or small family of turbo, and you can't arbitrarily change things on your own. Turbos are either BB or not BB (sleeve); turbos are either oil only or oil/coolant. Generally (in fact, always, to my knowledge) all turbos in a family are the same in these parameters. BB turbos don't really have a heat advantage anyway; the BB just provides quicker spooling (better response). And although some people claim to have success with having coatings applied to turbo blades, its really hard to believe them knowing the tollerances involved. If you are looking to do these sorts of upgrades to a kit, you are probably better off and doing the whole thing DIY, no kit.

2) You mentioned "doing it right" wrt turbos. In my opinion (note opinion -- definitely don't want this to come off the wrong way, I'm not a h8er!) -- the "right way" to do a turbo install is with a dedicated ECU programmed for the app. Not with stacks of add-on boost controllers and rising rate pressure regs and ignition controllers, etc. All that stuff makes for lots of whizzy electronics, but is very hard to get working consistently and reliably. But doing a full on ECU controller is $$$$, both in the (simple) components and in the tuning time. That said, some people have lots and lots of fun tuning the multi-box approach. My brother, for one -- I'll never forget the look on his face as he shot the oil dipstick through the hood of his Starion on a particularly hard test run: high boost->detonation->broken ring lands->oil geyser!

-frank

 

G3po, you are definitely correct on both counts. I had completely forgotten that the wonderful Eaton blowers have an intergral bypass!!

On the TS blowers, has anyone applied them to the Z? I completely agree that they are the best, most sophisticated SC (with the output port config of the TS, you can even have the plumbing possibilities of the centri!) , but there are very very few apps. Which is why I didn't mention them.

-frank

 

You posted more than this, but there is some good opinion in here, I like the reduction in modifications, and of course if it actually has more power potential than other SC solutions, "there ain't nothing wrong with that".

I'll have to revisit ATI.

thanks again

 

Yeah with proper timing and fuel control i think this might be a better supercharger however i stress the ECU control as the blower unit is proven in other aplications. I would get the tuner ati kit as the fmu that comes with the kit is garbage.

Turbos are still better!!!!

 

I know WRC cars do something to keep the turbos spooled when off throttle, but I don't remember what it is.

Now, I haven't ever driven one of the TT Zs around, but I know my Eagle Talon never had a problem with lack of turbo spool on a corner exit even with its low CR. I think a GReddy Z with lower boost could get away with getting on the gas just a little early on a corner exit because it is still pretty linear power.

Of course, I watched someone's video of that 600 HP WRX and he was correcting after each corner for the oversteer. Then again, I've watched John Felstead's Nurburgring footage on the NASIOC forums and he never has problems with his STi coming out of corners.

Anyway, I think anyone who's serious about racing at all will not be running a dyno queen type boost setting on a road course. Maybe they would use that to post some good numbers and then turn it down a little to make it linear for the track. Those F1 cars- 1,500 HP from 1.5 liters with their 52- 73 psi of boost are a little beyond what the TD05 can support

 

WRC cars use Misfiring System to keep the turbo spooling between shifts and off throttle. Misfiring System retards the timing under light throttle, it wait until the exhaust valves start to open, then ignite the fuel mixture, there's not enogh time to burn all the fuel in the cylinder, the unburn fuel go out from the exhaust valve and complete the burn inside the exhaust manifold, so the very hot gases can keep the turbo spinning.

 

I never said that it WONT make it to production, just that it is less likely to compared to other kits out there.

My reasons for feeling this are:
Relatively small company.
Pre-order has been going on for a year and still no product.
Very design-intensive product.
Have seen many renderings but only one picture.
Have not seen any pictures of prototypes on a Z.
Release date has been pushed out numerous times.

I think they have the best S/C design so far by a significant margin, but I am concerned that they will run out of "gas" before getting the thing to market. Hopefully the product really is in the testing phase, but usually info and pictures start leaking out long before a product is ready, and the fact that we haven't seen anything on a car yet makes me a bit skeptical. Although, since they are a smaller company, maybe it is much easier for them to keep a tight lid on the product until they are confident with it.

I still believe this design will one day exist, but I wonder how long it will be before that day arrives. Hopefully not too long.

-D'oh!

 

I checked out their site, looks pretty damn good, although as you mentioned, I haven't seen anything about this except for a few mentions here and there, and now of course in this thread.

I e-mailed them for more info, I'll see what I get back.

thanks!

 

This is why I chose ATI... It made the most sense for an engine that wasn't designed to have forced induction.

I'm trying to think of another car that has forced induction from the factory but doesn't have an oil cooler. I give up

 

I wish. I have a KB (AutoRotor) on my Dodge truck, pulls like a juiced mule from 1500rpm on.. Too bad Stillen went the cheap route. I'm sure with creative flanges the Stillen could be replaced with an Autorotor 1.5L unit, but I still don't like the un-dope hood bulge.

If any one doesn't beleive the benefit of a TS over a Roots they should read the article were KB swapped out a 2003 Cobra (Eaton) with an Autorotor,sweet.

 

Whosdady, I am personally amazed that Nissan had the audacity to label a version of the Z the "Track" model, but left off the critical oil cooler!! An oil cooler is an absolutely essential mod for the Z if you do any serious driving (track, auto-x, etc) IMHO......

-frank

 

They should have called it the Brembo minus leather model