BlueDemonZ

I've heard that the auto trannies are having problems with forced induction. I am thinking about going with the greddy TT but i'm not gonna do it if my engine or transmission is gonna get screwed up. I only have about 600 miles on my car so far also...should I wait til I put a few thousand miles on the car before going FI? Also I have heard that this will void the warranty of the car and I wanna know if that's true or not. SO I'm wondering for those of you that have AT and FI how many miles are on your car and if you've had any problems so far? If my car will last 70,000 miles before having problems because of it then I don't really care because I barely drive the car and it will take me years to put on that type of mileage! Thank God for my work van!

CeBrwn5454

iTrader: (2)

Before going with FI I have been told to put 3000 + miles on your car. And yes any type of FI will break your warrinty. I am not sure about the milage issue, I believe that it will depend on how you treat and take care of your car.

Chris

Houston G35

CeBrwn5454,

I have to disagree with you. FI does not necessarily void your warranty. I did a great deal of research on this subject, most of which came via this forum and Fresh Alloy.

To the best of my understanding, your warranty will only be void with FI if your dealer can prove that the problem was created as a direct result of your FI. The burden of proof is on them.

As a practical matter, I suggest you find the closest Nissan or Infiniti dealer that is "mod friendly." Develop a relationship with them, and if you have a problem bring the car to them. They are likely to be sympathetic to your problem, and unlikely to give you any BS about voided warranties.

As for me, I decided to have my work done by Grubbs, even though it is 4 hours away. None of the Infiniti dealers in Houston are mod friendly. It is clear to me that Grubbs will be fair and work with me if I have any problems in the future.

ChuckGZ

well, from everything i've heard, a GReddy TT will void the **** out of any warranty. that's why for ease of simplicity and dependability, i'll be putting on a stillen SC when my time comes.

as far as the tranny problems, from what i understand, at higher boost the AT is sluggish about shifting, and eventually just won't. now that's worst case, and you can still use tiptronic to shift manually. i don't believe it does any permanent damage to your transmission. I've also heard that F/I AT guys have fixed this by putting in Hi-Stall torque converters. don't want to pipe up on the topic too much without first hand knowledge, but i'm in the same boat you are as far as having an AT and wanting F/I eventually, so i've done some research on this.

dfw350z

Perhaps I can clarify a little; I have the following mod’s.

G35C AT – 2003
10,000 miles
Crawford Plenium
Borla Dual
Denso Plugs
Vortech SC w/ 9LB Pulley
Technosquare
Boost Gauge
A/F Gauge
Grounding

Currently I am pushing 400+RWHP ASE Corrected.

I do not have any shifting problems what so ever.

As far as warranty, they must prove that your mod caused the problem. They can not just speculate on it's failure. It’s the law !

BlueDemonZ

The superchargers are nice but for my money I would rather go TT just because from what I have been told in the long run you can get more HP out of the TT then the supercharger. I have been told that each turbo can handle up to 350 HP with upgraded fuel management system and other mods. I do not know how true this holds so don't yell at me about it I'm just saying what I've heard......but I would like to know if this is true. I want to go with whatever can give me more HP in the end. By the time I would put in a supercharger with headers and all I would already be at the price of the TT. What do you guys think? Thanks for the feedback and i'm hoping to get more...I thought there would be more of a debate over this thread then the feedback that I have received so far.

ChuckGZ

hey, dfw350z, i've heard talk that aftermarket headers may casue you to run lean when in conjunction with a supercharger. i can't see how that is, though. any truth to the statement, any experience from you end?

ChuckGZ

also, good to hear that i can save some $$$ and not seat the torque converter with just an SC

ZRAYGO

HoustonG35.....The minute the Nissan dealer sees that your cars engine is moded, the warrenty i svoided. It doesnt matter if you aer going in for a simple oil change or just to have the tire pressure looked at. They do a through check on the car. Not to mention that every mechanic in the dealership is going to scrutinize the car once they see the mods. Like you said, MOD FRIENDLY. There is only a few of them out there, and if you find one then stick with them. I have been going to Performance Nissan for a while now and they know that I have FI on my car. They are very cool and had been able to work on the car until i got the bodykit on the car and then they stopped because they could not get the car on the lift (too low). I haev gone to 1 or 2 other dealerships and asked to get an oil change. They end up getting thier manager once they see the intake and inetrcooler. They begin to ask questions. The manager comes out with a piece of paper and then begins to ask questions and marks them down and then copies your VIN number and before you know it, the warrenty is ghost. Unless you know the dealer or mechanic at the Nissan dealership, dont even think about going over there.

dfw350z

I would have to say that anything that modifies the amount of airflow could affect your Air/Fuel. With any modification that changes air/fuel I would get a Dyno done just to verify. Using the computer you can bring the system back into specs.

booger

iTrader: (6)

sorry your wrong...my dealer told me as long as its not something I modded they would cover it

Houston G35

ZRAYGO,

Grubbs Infiniti just finished my Vortech and Borla install. My FULL FACTORY WARRANTY is still in place. The fact is, when you purchase something with a warranty, that warranty creates a contractual obligation. It is not something that a dealer can dismiss with a waive of their hand.

Practically speaking, they can give you a hell of a time. I am sure they could make it so difficult that it would just be worth paying for the repair. However, technically speaking, you can force them to do the work. It may require making a lot of calls and even sueing them, but you will ultimately prevail.

shiva

Has a Nissan/Infiniti dealer given you a written verification of this? If so, that's incredibly good luck! You're making the same amount of power as a 2007 GT-R under warranty! If not, I seriously doubt you have any sort of powertrain warranty.

Yes, but you can break the terms of that contract and thereby void the warranty.

Unless you have a legally binding document written by Nissan/Infiniti that states that your powertrain warranty is intact despite your supercharger modification, there isn't a legal basis for you to "ultimately prevail." As you probably know, Nissan/Infiniti is bound the the Magnusson Moss Act, which forces them to prove that a defect was directly caused by your modification. If you threw a rod - certainly something covered under a full factory warranty - with your 9lb pulley setup, it would not be very difficult to prove that the supercharger was the root cause. Therefore, it is erroneous to believe that you have a powertrain warranty unless you have been told otherwise...in a legally binding way.

Just trying to help out here...

justock

Wow you sound like a lawyer. I am not, I can only defer to SEMA see the following link: http://www.enjoythedrive.com/content/?id=8124

Houston G35

The link from justock is to fantastic to just get a link from this page. Here is the full scoop.

Thanks justock!!!


Warranty Denied?

The enclosed materials are intended to help you should you have a vehicle warranty claim denied in circumstances in which an aftermarket product has been used. The information describes the law on vehicle warranties and will provide a sense of what is and is not an improper warranty denial. After reviewing this information, you will be aware of the steps to take to fight unlawful warranty denials.

In many cases it will not be necessary to take all the steps outlined here because disputes are often resolved at an early stage.

What Does the Warranty Actually Say?

Start by re-reading the warranty documents. Become familiar with what the documents actually say, not what you think they should say. If the language is confusing, get help in understanding what it really means. Look for specific items or circumstances that may or may not be covered. Determine if there is a process specified for resolving disputes.

The Law

Federal law sets forth requirements for warranties and contains a number of provisions to prevent vehicle manufacturers, dealers and others from unjustly denying warranty coverage. With regard to aftermarket parts, the spirit of the law is that warranty coverage cannot be denied simply because such parts are present on the vehicle, or have been used (see Attachment A). The warranty coverage can be denied only if the aftermarket part caused the malfunction or damage for which warranty coverage is sought. Disputes in this area usually boil down to arguments over facts and technical opinions, rather than arguments over interpretations of the law.

Check Vehicle History

Sometimes a malfunction in a new vehicle may be identified as a "pattern failure," a failure that is recognized as common to your make and model of vehicle. It may be a manufacturing defect which has become the subject of a government-mandated recall. You should check with another dealer, the vehicle manufacturer or an independent service provider—such as those listed below—to see if there are any Technical Service Bulletins (TSBs), ìfield fixes or other service-related information for your vehicle which would indicate that the problem you are experiencing is a common one. In cases of government-mandated recalls, the dealer is obliged to notify you as a vehicle owner. However, you may check for yourself by calling the vehicle manufacturer's 800 number, the EPA (for emissions systems issues) or the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA), for safety-related issues.

EPA: 202/233-9040
NHTSA: 800/424-9393
Chiltons: 610/964-4600
AllData: 916/684-5200
Motor Publications: 800/426-6897
American Automobile Manufacturers Association: 313/872-4311
Japanese Automobile Manufacturers Association: 202/296-8537
Determine the True Cause of the Problem

If possible, attempt to independently verify the accuracy of the claims made by the dealership. The manufacturer of the aftermarket part may be helpful to you in providing a technical assessment of the problem. If there is a reasonable possibility that the aftermarket product caused the problem, it may be best to try to reach a compromise. If, however, it is clear that the aftermarket product is unrelated to the problem, you should attempt to gather as much information as possible to support your claim. Useful evidence might include photos, copies of relevant service information, records of prior repairs performed under warranty, or the objective written opinion of a qualified third party (with relevant experience, accreditation, etc.).

Try to Work it Out With the Dealer

Once prepared with the appropriate support information and a basic understanding of the law, present the facts to the dealers service manager and make an effort to resolve the situation. Keep the discussion objective and professional. Make sure to take notes of any significant claims or explanations made by dealership personnel and try to obtain a written explanation if possible.

If discussions with the service manager do not bring about a resolution, speak with the owner of the dealership. Many problems can be resolved at this level. If there is a known pattern failure which matches your problem, be sure to bring this to the dealer's attention. The dealer is able to obtain reimbursement from the vehicle manufacturer under such circumstances. If there is no pattern failure, but other evidence that exists contradicts the dealers conclusion, be sure the dealer is made aware of it. Also explain that you are aware of your rights under EPA's emissions warranty and the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act. Again, if there is a reasonable possibility that either the aftermarket product or its installation could be the cause of the problem, your best bet is to suggest a compromise with the dealer. In many cases, presenting an objective technical assessment and a basic understanding of the law will do the trick.

However, if you believe that you are entitled to warranty service, but the dealer disagrees, you can take other steps to seek a resolution to the dispute.

Get it in Writing

If a dealership denies warranty coverage, they should be willing to do so in writing. Have the dealer describe the failure which is causing your problem AND how the dealer believes the aftermarket product installed is responsible for the problem. Keep an accurate log of all contacts and correspondence in addressing the warranty denial.

Contact the Vehicle Manufacturer's Zone Representative

If a car manufacturer backs your warranty, and you have a dispute with the dealer about either service or coverage, contact the local manufacturer's representative. The local or zone representative has the authority to adjust and make decisions about warranty service remedies or repairs to satisfy customers.

Some manufacturers are also willing to repair certain problems in specific models free of charge, even if the manufacturer's warranty does not cover the problem. Ask the zone representative or the service manager if there is such a policy.

The procedure for contacting your zone representative is usually provided in the vehicle owner's manual. This information can also be obtained from a dealer, or by calling the manufacturer's customer service number, as listed in the carmaker's owner's manual. Present your case to the zone representative. Be sure to indicate how the dealer responded to your information, especially if dealership personnel were notably uncooperative, etc. Once again, be sure to get as much information in writing as you can; request that any determinations or actions which are promised by the zone representative be confirmed by a letter or a fax.

Contact the Vehicle Manufacturer Directly

You may find that contact with the zone representative does not achieve resolve of the matter. If you are still not satisfied, the next step is to contact the vehicle manufacturer directly. Most carmakers maintain a contact office or a special department that is responsible for dealing with warranty issues (see Attachment B).

Using the information you have gathered and any additional information you may have to supplement your case, forward a letter directly to the vehicle manufacturer's customer service office (sometimes called dispute resolution board or something similar). Be sure to explain your situation in detail and in a logical, easy-to-understand manner. Provide as much detail as you can about your contacts with the dealer and the zone representative. Do not hesitate to state if you felt you were treated improperly or unfairly by either. The vehicle manufacturer will almost always respond to you with a letter; sometimes promptly, sometimes not. Again, be sure to retain all correspondence in case you need it for future use. Generally, the vehicle manufacturer has the greatest interest in ensuring your satisfaction; they want you to remain loyal to their brand. As such, they will likely make a good-faith effort to resolve the issue particularly if there is a known pattern of similar failures. If there is a request for any additional information, be sure to keep a record of what you send. If the manufacturer should still decide against you, make sure that their refusal letter provides an explanation of how they believe the aftermarket part caused the problem.

Local Approaches You Can Try

If you cannot get satisfaction from the dealer, the zone representative or the manufacturer, contact one or all of the following:

Houston G35

Technically speaking the “Burdon of proof” is on them.

It does not matter what I did to my car, the opposition must prove beyond a preponderance of the evidence (a lesser burden than reasonable double, but still a very high burden), that my actions were the proximal (first or actual cause) cause of the damage. In theory a super charger alone does not even come close to meeting this burden. In order to meet this standard, most, if not all, G35 coupes with super chargers would have to experience the same or very similar problems. Since this is obviously, and empirically not the case, there is no objective way that this position can be supported. Thus, the little guy wins and the big company loses. They already know this on many levels. When push comes to shove, they will pay out, rather than going through all this unnecessary circus (and expense) to reach the same conclusion.

On a personal note, in the past, I have fought a city, individual, and massive insurance company, all without any official legal representative. Each time, over the past 10 years, they have lost. My only answer to this is that Justice is almost blind. Though I am not an attorney, I was able to present a coherent case to juries and they made the correct judgment each time.

I feel confident that most large companies know that they will lose most court cases. Furthermore, it is in their best interest to make their customers happy. Don’t worry about semantics, just understand human nature and realize that these companies need your support much more than you need theirs. Only then will you truly understand that the power is YOU. It is YOU!!

Eagle1

iTrader: (2)

Blue Demon:
You have plenty of warranty discourse above. Let's get back to the guts of your question.

You can run the FI on the auto tranny just fine. I know several fellows running both turbo and super chargers on this motor with AT, including G35 sedans and coupes, and they work great. You may want to get a different torque converter and you should do some research there.

Break the motor in before you slap the FI on there. I did mine at 2000 miles, and have run 11,000 FI miles since with no problems at all, including track events at Laguna Seca, Buttonwillow, Sears Point and Willow Springs, but waiting until later is certainly not a wrong decision. I did it as soon as I thought was reasonable.

As for how long it will last, that really is a function of how you maintain your car, and more importantly, how you drive it. IF you thrash the heck out of it,then just like an NA car it is not going to last. Corky Bell, a much more credible authority on FI than any of us are likely to become, has stated in one of his books that he thinks you can reasonably expect to get about 80% of the engine life off a FI application compared to NA. BUT, that assumes you are a responsible driver and caregiver to your machine. If you boost it to 9psi on stock internals you are neither!

On turbo versus super chargers. Read read read. I have had both and I love them both, but they are slightly different. Both have advantages, and disadvantages relative to each other, and also relative to various iterations within the classes of turbos and sc units.

For a street car.....I give an edge to the turbo. It is quiet at idle and low rpm, it is good on gas, until you get your foot into it, and the lag element is not that big a deal in most street and cruise applications. The newer twin turbo set ups are better with lag, and on a V-6 that is probably what you should do rather than a single larger turbo, as the lag will be further mitigated since the smaller ones will spool up faster. And there is no parasitic hp loss from the drag of the belt like you have with sc.

If however you are going to track the car...I give an edge to the supercharger. You don't care about the noisier jet whine, or the 1 to 2mpg loss, there is almost instant response to throttle and the loss of perhaps 20hp or so at the upper end of the spectrum is not as material and rarely used when compared to getting the power on sooner in every range below max rpms, and especially modulating into and out of it when you are at the edge of adhesion with your tires in a turn. If your turbo lags and kicks on you at the wrong place in a turn, and it is unpredictable, you can break loose by putting too much demand on the tires. SO then you have to get off throttle, regain grip, then get back on.....and you have lost precious time and yards. Or worst case gone into a wall or another car next to you or even just cross country in lawnmower mode.

A centrifugal design supercharger is virtually the same as a turbo in the way it compresses and delivers the air charge, just belt driven. A roots or eaton style blower is different, falling into a class that is "positive displacement" in its delivery. If it matters we can go into that elsewhere. A lysholm twin screw is perhaps the best of everything, but the machining tolerance is so fine that the cost of the units is high and we really don't see them much on street applications.

Hopefully that summary is detailed enough to not be misleading, yet still understandable. Enjoy your new car!

350Mark

iTrader: (4)

Nice write up!!

In regards to the torque converter, I know that changes the stall, but what are the advantages for us 5AT guys? Won't that just help us launch better? Some people have done the TS ecu thingy to raise RPM's but is that a solid solution to the shifting dilema?
Thanks, Mark

dfw350z

The TS upgrade worked well for me and my AT Trans.

BlueDemonZ

Eagle1

Thanks so much for that write up. I found it very very helpful. Either I'm gonna have to go out driving my car more often or wait a few months to get my TT now but that's cool I can be patient sometimes! I take care of my cars so that won't be a problem either. I have a honda accord that has 140k miles on it and i haven't had a problem with it other then needing a new exhaust which had a hole in it. You know what...i think i'll go put some mileage on the car right now! Thanks for the help guys!