Crawford Plenum Spacer - $29!!!!
01-28-2005, 12:27 PM
#21
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Originally posted by westpak
Steel? I thought that gasket was like a heavy paper type, the lower plenum gasket is metal.
Steel? I thought that gasket was like a heavy paper type, the lower plenum gasket is metal.
01-28-2005, 02:01 PM
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Originally posted by pdjafari
i personally went the spacer route b/c for now Its one that requires no trade-in of my stock plenum.
i personally went the spacer route b/c for now Its one that requires no trade-in of my stock plenum.
www.freewebs.com/crawfordz for info and pics
01-28-2005, 02:01 PM
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Originally posted by westpak
Steel? I thought that gasket was like a heavy paper type, the lower plenum gasket is metal.
Steel? I thought that gasket was like a heavy paper type, the lower plenum gasket is metal.
PhoenixINX: What is the part number for the steel one?
01-28-2005, 02:18 PM
#25
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Originally posted by teh215
The paper gasket is what I got with my V5. It was, IIRC, an OEM gasket.
PhoenixINX: What is the part number for the steel one?
The paper gasket is what I got with my V5. It was, IIRC, an OEM gasket.
PhoenixINX: What is the part number for the steel one?
01-28-2005, 03:00 PM
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Phoenix, be a friend, ask Doug to utilize all the hood space available in a G35 and make the highest most effecient plenum all at once. As you said, more volume, more power. I know you guy may be more partial to Z's, like most ppl on this forum, but if I dont have a strut bar, I wanna make it up with 3 more hp.
01-28-2005, 03:11 PM
#27
01-28-2005, 03:15 PM
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Originally posted by ChromiumBlue
Phoenix, be a friend, ask Doug to utilize all the hood space available in a G35 and make the highest most effecient plenum all at once. As you said, more volume, more power. I know you guy may be more partial to Z's, like most ppl on this forum, but if I dont have a strut bar, I wanna make it up with 3 more hp.
Phoenix, be a friend, ask Doug to utilize all the hood space available in a G35 and make the highest most effecient plenum all at once. As you said, more volume, more power. I know you guy may be more partial to Z's, like most ppl on this forum, but if I dont have a strut bar, I wanna make it up with 3 more hp.
01-28-2005, 05:14 PM
#29
Hi guys,
I just wanted to add that the test was indeed 100% real and fair. And I understand the skepticisim that some may have. I would be too, but Albert (E_K) is not associated with me in any way. It was the first and only time we met and it was his own V5 that was being tested. So he has no incentive to show that his own V5 performed more or less than a 1/4" spacer.
Like pdjafari said earlier:
"But if I owned my own aftermarket performance business, I would PROVE to myself and maybe the consumer by purchasing the competitor's item and putting it to the test. And if my product is better than the competitor's I would use that to market my product because I would have a competitive advantage using dyno sheets and product demonstrations/dyno days etc. Now if my product was worse as in performance wise, id either go back to the drawing board"
Although I didn't buy a V5, this is all 100% true and exactly how it happened. And if I ever see a need to go back to the drawing board, I'll do it in a heart beat. I'll try to improve it in any practical/feasible/cost effective way possible.
And I think we did a damn good job of keeping the test scientific by eliminating as many interfering variables as possible.
I did not expect, intend or even hope to see the 1/4" spacer produce more gains than the V5. My only hope was to see enough gain from the spacer that it would prove demonstrate its value while keeping the stock strut bar on. I also wanted to see what it would do relative to a V5. My hope was that if I could get 50% to 75% of the gains of the V5 and still keep the strut bar on that would be cool.
And it worked out very well. Much better than I expected.
I know this won't necessarily convince anyone but I'll send out the raw tabular data files to anyone who's interested.
Tony Colette
Motordyne Engineering
I just wanted to add that the test was indeed 100% real and fair. And I understand the skepticisim that some may have. I would be too, but Albert (E_K) is not associated with me in any way. It was the first and only time we met and it was his own V5 that was being tested. So he has no incentive to show that his own V5 performed more or less than a 1/4" spacer.
Like pdjafari said earlier:
"But if I owned my own aftermarket performance business, I would PROVE to myself and maybe the consumer by purchasing the competitor's item and putting it to the test. And if my product is better than the competitor's I would use that to market my product because I would have a competitive advantage using dyno sheets and product demonstrations/dyno days etc. Now if my product was worse as in performance wise, id either go back to the drawing board"
Although I didn't buy a V5, this is all 100% true and exactly how it happened. And if I ever see a need to go back to the drawing board, I'll do it in a heart beat. I'll try to improve it in any practical/feasible/cost effective way possible.
And I think we did a damn good job of keeping the test scientific by eliminating as many interfering variables as possible.
I did not expect, intend or even hope to see the 1/4" spacer produce more gains than the V5. My only hope was to see enough gain from the spacer that it would prove demonstrate its value while keeping the stock strut bar on. I also wanted to see what it would do relative to a V5. My hope was that if I could get 50% to 75% of the gains of the V5 and still keep the strut bar on that would be cool.
And it worked out very well. Much better than I expected.
I know this won't necessarily convince anyone but I'll send out the raw tabular data files to anyone who's interested.
Tony Colette
Motordyne Engineering
01-28-2005, 05:50 PM
#30
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The plenums not only add volume as do the spacers but they also correct the majority of the uneven distribution between the rear four runners and the two front. I don't have a spacer nor a plenum so I can't cite first hand observation but from what I can tell is spacers add volume but do nothing to even distribution whereas the plenums do.
I don't know if these spacers are tapered up in the front, and if they are I don't think the taper could overcome the uneven distribution while still lining up the bolt holes.
It may be that the spacers add enough volume to the point were the uneven distribution is no longer a factor.
What we really need besides dynos is some flow bench testing. In the end I think the plenums will always make more power; enough to justify them over a spacer's price? Thats up to you.
I don't know if these spacers are tapered up in the front, and if they are I don't think the taper could overcome the uneven distribution while still lining up the bolt holes.
It may be that the spacers add enough volume to the point were the uneven distribution is no longer a factor.
What we really need besides dynos is some flow bench testing. In the end I think the plenums will always make more power; enough to justify them over a spacer's price? Thats up to you.
01-28-2005, 09:56 PM
#31
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Originally posted by ChromiumBlue
I wanna make it up with 3 more hp.
I wanna make it up with 3 more hp.
If anyone is THAT serious about wanting to run a 1/4" spacer, you REALLY need to try this out.
Once you feel that huge KICK in the pants, you'll really be glad you spent <$29 bux.
01-28-2005, 11:24 PM
#32
I don't know, 1/4" aluminum spacer makes sense to me.
The engine still looks stock to the onlooker (police where it matters) and the strut bar still fits.
Having the air inlet at the back of the plenum means 100% of the air the motor needs passes over the back two ports, 66% passes over the center ports and only the last 33% needs to be left for the front two, so the slant front may not be as detrimental as people believe, further, it may actually help keep intake velocity up. Having the air inlet sit slightly higher may also keep the backs of the back port trumpets from impeding airflow as it enters the plenum.
I would love to see flow bench and computer models for air velocity for both intakes.
This whole conversation is about the same as JWT Popcharger VS Injen CAI, everyone takes a side and the slagging goes on forever.
Chris
The engine still looks stock to the onlooker (police where it matters) and the strut bar still fits.
Having the air inlet at the back of the plenum means 100% of the air the motor needs passes over the back two ports, 66% passes over the center ports and only the last 33% needs to be left for the front two, so the slant front may not be as detrimental as people believe, further, it may actually help keep intake velocity up. Having the air inlet sit slightly higher may also keep the backs of the back port trumpets from impeding airflow as it enters the plenum.
I would love to see flow bench and computer models for air velocity for both intakes.
This whole conversation is about the same as JWT Popcharger VS Injen CAI, everyone takes a side and the slagging goes on forever.
Chris
01-29-2005, 01:24 AM
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Originally posted by PhoenixINX
Add a Crawford sticker... It's worth 5hp.
If anyone is THAT serious about wanting to run a 1/4" spacer, you REALLY need to try this out.
Once you feel that huge KICK in the pants, you'll really be glad you spent <$29 bux.
Add a Crawford sticker... It's worth 5hp.
If anyone is THAT serious about wanting to run a 1/4" spacer, you REALLY need to try this out.
Once you feel that huge KICK in the pants, you'll really be glad you spent <$29 bux.
01-29-2005, 01:35 AM
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Well, just judging from Crawford's reaction so far, all they have done is come out aggressively defending their product and basically mocking the spacer idea, with no signs of proof to dispute these new claims.
That translates to me as "scared they might lose business", otherwise why would they get so worked up over it? I think they see this as a real threat, something that can be dyno proven, thus the reason we are seeing these types of responses. This has only increased my interest in the idea and I look forward to more independent tests.
That translates to me as "scared they might lose business", otherwise why would they get so worked up over it? I think they see this as a real threat, something that can be dyno proven, thus the reason we are seeing these types of responses. This has only increased my interest in the idea and I look forward to more independent tests.
01-29-2005, 06:17 AM
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Originally posted by copba1t
Well, just judging from Crawford's reaction so far, all they have done is come out aggressively defending their product and basically mocking the spacer idea, with no signs of proof to dispute these new claims.
Well, just judging from Crawford's reaction so far, all they have done is come out aggressively defending their product and basically mocking the spacer idea, with no signs of proof to dispute these new claims.
As far as all these other spacers working; I simply say prove it. All the plenum designs are proven; whereas these spacers at best are questionable. I really would like to see some flow bench results, and alot more independent testing. The thing is the plenums don't just increase the amount of volume like these spacers do; they even out the air distribution by raising the front. Until I see more testing and more "trustworthy" dynos from some of the manufacturers I will not believe that these spacers even help.
01-29-2005, 06:23 AM
#36
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Originally posted by JAMESZ
No I wouldn't stick it on Crawford; I'd more say Chris (Phoenix) is just being stupid as usual. I have met him in person before at a few Z events, and it just seems to be how he is; that and he is a fountain of misinformation it seems.
As far as all these other spacers working; I simply say prove it. All the plenum designs are proven; whereas these spacers at best are questionable. I really would like to see some flow bench results, and alot more independent testing. The thing is the plenums don't just increase the amount of volume like these spacers do; they even out the air distribution by raising the front. Until I see more testing and more "trustworthy" dynos from some of the manufacturers I will not believe that these spacers even help.
No I wouldn't stick it on Crawford; I'd more say Chris (Phoenix) is just being stupid as usual. I have met him in person before at a few Z events, and it just seems to be how he is; that and he is a fountain of misinformation it seems.
As far as all these other spacers working; I simply say prove it. All the plenum designs are proven; whereas these spacers at best are questionable. I really would like to see some flow bench results, and alot more independent testing. The thing is the plenums don't just increase the amount of volume like these spacers do; they even out the air distribution by raising the front. Until I see more testing and more "trustworthy" dynos from some of the manufacturers I will not believe that these spacers even help.
01-29-2005, 06:33 AM
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Originally posted by nis350ztt
The Motordyne plenum spacer doesn't just raise the front, it raises the hole plenum. But the AAM plenum spacer, is tapered, same concept as these aftermarket plenums.
The Motordyne plenum spacer doesn't just raise the front, it raises the hole plenum. But the AAM plenum spacer, is tapered, same concept as these aftermarket plenums.
01-29-2005, 06:56 AM
#39
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Originally posted by copba1t
Well, just judging from Crawford's reaction so far, all they have done is come out aggressively defending their product and basically mocking the spacer idea, with no signs of proof to dispute these new claims.
That translates to me as "scared they might lose business", otherwise why would they get so worked up over it? I think they see this as a real threat, something that can be dyno proven, thus the reason we are seeing these types of responses. This has only increased my interest in the idea and I look forward to more independent tests.
Well, just judging from Crawford's reaction so far, all they have done is come out aggressively defending their product and basically mocking the spacer idea, with no signs of proof to dispute these new claims.
That translates to me as "scared they might lose business", otherwise why would they get so worked up over it? I think they see this as a real threat, something that can be dyno proven, thus the reason we are seeing these types of responses. This has only increased my interest in the idea and I look forward to more independent tests.
We have a product that performs... it makes nearly 20hp at peak. NOTHING touches it.
If someone would rather save their dinero, and just run a spacer, here is their solution.
We all gasped when we saw how much people were charging for them, so we happened to think a bunch of gaskets would work just as well.
Enjoy!
01-29-2005, 07:30 AM
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This sounds damn familiar to something in the Lightning world. Vendor comes out with spacer made out of phenolic material. Not only was it meant to straighten out airflow around a tight bend (into the supercharger in that case), but was also advertised to cut down on heat transfer into the plenum...
Vendor does what looks like extensive tests on a customers truck. Shows around 15 HP gains. Everyone runs to buy them. Time after time, the results could not be reproduced on other trucks. Some dyno's showed a gain within the "margin of error" between dyno runs, but most showed 0.
What's my point? Testing something on one vehicle is worthless. There are too many variables that could affect the outcome. The manufacturer should send this thing out to 10 people across the country for free (customer pays their own dyno time) and record the results. Only then would I even consider the spacer being talked about.
-Mark
Vendor does what looks like extensive tests on a customers truck. Shows around 15 HP gains. Everyone runs to buy them. Time after time, the results could not be reproduced on other trucks. Some dyno's showed a gain within the "margin of error" between dyno runs, but most showed 0.
What's my point? Testing something on one vehicle is worthless. There are too many variables that could affect the outcome. The manufacturer should send this thing out to 10 people across the country for free (customer pays their own dyno time) and record the results. Only then would I even consider the spacer being talked about.
-Mark