Jason@Performance

iTrader: (11)

hulk hogan's info is pretty funny

I wonder if its real like the a.o.l. account it was registered under

Hydrazine

iTrader: (53)

McDuck,

I am happy to see you are a Crawford enthusiast. Seriously.

Are you still objective about product performance regardless of the manufacturer?...

In all of the testing you did with the Crawford products did you perform the test in a tightly controlled and scientific manner?
Eliminating as many interfering variables as possible?

If you were offerd free plenum spacers so that you could perform fair and scientifically controlled comparative tests, could you do it????

How many people could you get together to oversee all the testing?

If you can promise me a fair shot, with a fair comparative dyno, between a Craford plenum and my plenum spacers give me a PM.

Thank you,
Tony Colette
Motordyne Engineering

mcduck

Hydrazine...

do you want a test between a Crawford plenum with and without your spacer? or a test between a Crawford plenum and your spacer with a stock plenum?

I can pull of the first, but not the second, as I have an old school Crawford plenum. My stock plenum is long gone, though I think I can procure one if you are serious.

Also, will the spacer option hold up under boost? I suspect it would, but I would want your guarantee on that since I have run over 15K miles problem free with the Vortech pumping 9lbs of boost into the Crawford V1 plenum. If my 350Z breaks a rod while the spacer and stock plenum are on the car because cylinder 6 leans out, are you going to pay to rebuild my motor?

If so, lets see if we can make this happen. If we can work this out for my car, I'm sure we can pull in a somewhat stock 350Z to be tested on the same day.

SirZaLot

iTrader: (1)

.....

SirZaLot

iTrader: (1)

Why don't you compare your spacer with AAM's spacer. It seems like AAM is more of competitor as you both are selling plenum spacers where Crawford is selling a plenum replacement.

copba1t

iTrader: (2)

Assuming the dyno results reported so far are accurate (now from two independent sources), how are all three of these products not effectively accomplishing the same thing?

Suppose that the stock plenum is hiding ~10rwhp, and both the spacer and Crawford products are able to get that ~10rwhp power back. It's quite possible that simply raising the plenum sufficiently is enough to gain the majority of that power back. Any additional changes to the design of the upper plenum might just be over-engineering and give only marginal gains.

All other things being equal, I think being able to keep the stock look and strut bar are big plusses for the spacer.

I am curious to see how the combination of the spacer and Crawford work together, but I would think that since both already address the main issue (height in front) it would seem redundant.

Road Warrior

iTrader: (16)

crawford...why don't you just make this a one piece spacer...angled like aam and sell them for say 50 bucks. you could make a killing....and count me in for one if you do! with all the crawford cronies, me including as i have the cats, i would think this would be a top seller for those who have not yet bought the plenum. beat those other manufacturers to the punch....and you have the name to back your quality....so you would most likely be everyone's first choice.

JAMESZ

Because Crawford already said they tested the spacer idea awhile back and it yielded unsatisfactory results. I have seen first hand what Crawford parts can do for cars, and as the Crawford staff has said they won't sell a product that has unsatisfactory results.

I would really like to see seperate flow bench results and different dynos in the near future for a real comparison.

Hydrazine

iTrader: (53)

Hi Mcduck,

Can you perform a fair, unbiased and scientifically controlled test?

I'm talking about an A/B comparison of “any” plenum mod vs the stock plenum with a Motordyne 1/4" and 1/2" plenum spacer. Do it on a dyno day with plenty of people to see the results.

The Motordyne plenum spacers will take any amount of boost you can put to it and a whole lot more. They will easily take 90 psi. And no. I do not warranty motors. But neither does any other plenum mod company.

1) If the 1/4" spacer produces 50% to 75% of the cast plenum and keeps the strut bar on. That would be great.

2) If the 1/2" spacer produces similar results to the cast craford plenum AND does it at a much lower cost AND looks stealth... That would be great too.

But don't do it for me or any other manufacturer. Keep it objective and do it for the benefit of the Z and G community.

Chris
You want to donate mcduck a cast plenum for the test?

zzzya

iTrader: (2)

This has happened on more than one car. It may not be a lot of boost, but there has been an overall drop due to the increase in volume under the plenum, so to say "Entirely untrue" is well untrue. Since you had the Crawford before you added the boost, you didn't see it, but I bet if you take the Crawford off and put the stock plenum on without changing anything else, you will see higher boost numbers.

E K

iTrader: (10)

mcduck, are you talking about AAM's dyno or my dyno? I can assure you that I am not pushing any parts here. Someone else on the g35 forum is planning on dyno testing the spacer as well. I've promised to lend my Crawford V5 for the tests. It'll give us even more data, but I'm sure as most dynos that get posted, it'll create more questions than answers.

MannishBoy

iTrader: (1)

Stepping in as a mod here, please keep the personal comments out of the thread and let the technical discussion continue.

imcool

iTrader: (1)

whats the bottom line does this work? or should I just go buy these gaskets and test it on the dyno at my shop?

VandyZ

iTrader: (2)

Well it all depends on who you ask.

Doug (Crawford Z Car) tried it long ago and it was not the answer. 350EVO race team tried it and it was not the answer. If I remember correctly Jim Wolf even told us he tried it without major success. There are a couple people on here who are claiming it works for them. All I know is what I run works for me and has worked for hundreds of others, and will work for hundreds more as the cast pieces are delivered.

For $30 or so, Performance will sell you the stuff to try out the spacer idea. I would do this if you want a cheap way to dyno test without the fear of wasting money. If you feel confident that the spacer is the real deal then there are two vendors selling them (AAM and Hydrazine / Motordyne).

As always if you have specific questions about the plenum give Doug a call at the shop (# in sig pic). He can tell you anything you want to know about research, development, and testing of the Crawford Plenum.

HyperSprite

iTrader: (6)

Keep in mind there are still those center bolts in the top of the plenum nobody has talked about, you will still need some kind of solution for that.

Chris

mcduck

My believe is they are... to differing degrees. Full plenum replacements addressing volume and some stock design flaws being the best, but also more expensive solution. Spacers granting some gains for those on a budget.
Also agree with this... there is a point of diminishing returns or you'd see plenums designed that stick out of the hood!
I wasn't trying to imply the spacer wouldn't hold up... I was just making sure since this had not been brought into the discussion to this point.

Also, I am perfectly aware no plenum company offers such a guarantee. HOWEVER, I have run with Crawford plenum under boost for 15K+ miles with zero issues. It is known that many boost motors have blown because of the lean out situation with the front cylinders. I'm not willing to make my perfectly running Vortech/Crawford motor a test pig in a comparison with an, as of yet, unproven combo without some guarantee in writing. If you're so confident your spacer addresses the front cylinder flow issue, step up. If it does what you say, you should have nothing to worry about. But since it involves using a part (the stock plenum) that is highly suspect to be at least a partial, if not major, cause of lean out condition in the front cylinders on FI cars, I will not risk breaking a motor running perfectly to help you prove your point. You have to assume the risk which should be nonexistent if what you claim about your product is true.

and yes, I can get dyno time with facility to swap option A for option B while the car sits on the dyno and sufficient witnesses to observe the test.

You're right... maybe too broad a generality stated based on my experience. If what you state is true, then I wonder how much more boost I'd run if I had a stock plenum?! Even more reason for me to require the guarantee from Hydrazine above before conducting this test.

I know you're not E K, but Hydrazine is the one that has been posting your information mostly and he is pushing the product.

Anyway, I'm glad this has gotten back to a healthy discussion and away from product/company bashing. It's great to have multiple alternative.... I just want to see more independent verification to substantiate claims of "better" or "as good as" other products. It's easy to say something works, it's much more involved to prove that it does.

copba1t

iTrader: (2)

Again, if anyone thinks that dynoing a stack of gaskets is a valid scientific comparison to a single machined part then feel free to waste $35.

These spacers are shipping now so we will have additional proof of their effectiveness (or lack thereof) very soon, people just need to be a little patient and give it a few days...

copba1t

iTrader: (2)

I totally agree. I don't see the need to introduce other variables such as a Vortech into the equation, and no need to risk anything with your currently working setup just to prove the point. If I had your investments into the car I know I would never do it =)

Anyway, a better test would be on a relatively stock car by comparing an aftermarket plenum with the stock plenum + spacer. It's simple, has minimal variables, and would be much closer to what most people out there are running.

mcduck

agreed... But I am only at liberty to offer my car for testing and it is FI.

I'm sure we'll start getting further feedback from the community at large soon. Though, my offer remains open to Hydradine.

Hydrazine

iTrader: (53)

McDuck,

No. I won't ever offer a warranty on a Vortec engine. You know that would be nuts of any manufacturer to do. The whole issue is a diversion, a Red Herring.

If you can do a fair and objective dyno comparison, my offer as previously stated still stands (but not for long). As many other (and free samples for) independant test points will be available soon.

To all,
To anyone looking to do a test with a stack of gaskets.... The test will not be valid unless the entire center section of the gasket is cut out and removed. Did any of the gasket guys previously mention there will be a major flow obstruction unless the center section is removed?