Speedracer

The mods you posted will give you about 10-15hp. This amount will probably not affect your track times whatsoever. If you want speed, go FI.....but it will unbalance the car.

Here are some truths:

1. This car is pretty damn well balanced from the factory in terms of power, feel, handling. The Z is not about being the fastest. It never was. It is about a balanced, affordable, great looking sports car.

2. Nissan wanted the car to be within a certain budget, so obviously compromises needed to be made. Engine internals, etc.

3. FI will significantly increase your chance of engine failure. To do FI properly, you essentialy need to build an entirely new engine. To balance that power, you will need to practically build a whole new car.

4. NA mods are a poor value, but do change the subjective feel of the engine by altering the shape of the power and torque curves. There is a power gain, but it is small unless you want to start spending MAJOR $$$$, but then, basically, you are building a whole new engine....just like FI!!!!!!

5. Everyone will think that what they have done to their car is the best way to go so asking opinions on this will give you more information than you can make sense of.

To help you decide what to do, ask the following questions

1. How important is reliability. Are you the type that would get really frustrated or bummed out if something went wrong from time to time? If you are, forget FI.

2. How deep are your pockets? To build a GOOD, BALANCED, FI vehicle will cost you $35,000 on top of the price of the car....and it will still not have factory reliability

3. Is the stock Z really fast enough for you? If yes, some NA mods can definitely make the car more enjoyable just by changing the engine's character, if not really increasing performance by much. If you are looking for real performance increases, FI is the only way to go (nitrous excluded).

4. BMW's design philosophy is "build a great engine, then make it the weakest part of the car." A moderately powerful car with oustanding handling, steering, braking, shifting and grip will be much more enjoyable overall than a car with a monster motor that overpowers all the car's other
mechanical components.

All just food for thought. Getting back to your original point, NA mods will give you a different feel, but little real performance gain. Even 20-30hp will only take about 0.1sec of any of your times. And the range of 0-60 for the stock Z is not 5.3-5.5, it is 5.4-5.8.

ZBoater

Mustang dyno.

sentry65

iTrader: (11)

absolutely agree with Speedracer

I know when I was doing road coarses at the track, the only mods I wanted to do were handling mods. I'm starting to feel like NA is more and more the right route for me. I want my Z to be bulletproof, not always breaking and in the shop with overly huge repair bills.

I'm starting to get more and more turned off of FI with the lack of traction, worse balance, and heavier car. I'm more interested in weight loss and better handling/balance now. If the Z was a rear engine layout, then the weight of the turbo wouldn't be an issue to me cause at least it would add the weight over the rear tires for more traction. But that's not how this car is designed. The corvette mounts the transmission in the rear to get better balance and the viper seats the driver way back more towards the rear of the car.

Most other awesome drag racing cars I know of either have really huge wheel wells for huge tires, or are AWD, ore are rear engine, or have a solid rear axel, or are somehow designed in a better way for weight distribution on the rear. The Z just isn't set up that way. I don't want to HAVE to use racing tires to get traction

On a side note, yesterday I drove a new 2005 hyundai tiburon GT and when I got back in my Z I could not believe how much more solid of a car the Z is.

onyx350z

iTrader: (9)

I can tell you from personal experience going NA that I did not feel that much of a gain from each single part as I added them individaully, but after I had the following mods the car diffenitely pulled harder and it was like I was driving a new car. Mods:
JWT popcharger, UR 3 piece pully, Motordyne 3/8" plenum spacer, Labree test pipes, Borla true dual exhaust, and 350EVO 3.9 final drive gears. Just to give you an example I ran a SRT-4 last week and that car is evenly matched to a stock Z (1/4 mile time and 0-60) I pulled 4-5 car lengths on him twice! I even gave him the jump the second time to be sure his turbo was kicked in, after we were done he told me his girlfriend has a stock Z and they were either even or he would pull on her. The piont is I myself nor this guy could believe how hard I pulled on him and I could not stop smiling after i went home and knew that my NA mods were not a waste of $. Anyone with FI will tell you NA is a waste of $, I know from my personal experience I can feel a difference and I am not someone who feels a difference from a CAI or exhaust (when I installed those I actually didn't feel a thing). If you have any questions on my mods PM me. As for your question, I think with my mods I would run with or beat a STI in the 1/4 as for 0-60 it would be difficult because of their all wheel drive and they have an awsome 0-30 time (can't remember time).

Here is one more NA victory you might want to read posted on this site, yes he did have slicks but you have to give him props, he would have out run alot of FI Z's and STI's.

12.7 NA, no power adders

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tonight at capital raceway in Maryland i ran my car with my current mods, which was the first of the year for me. Last year all my runs were with drag radials and now i finally fit on a pair of Hoosier slicks.

My very first run of the night was 12.784 @ 105.96 and my following runs were both 12.9's. I cant believe i ran a 12.7 with just bolt ons and not even that many at that. I tried to powershift through the gears but instead i let off the gas for each shift.

My mods right now are test pipes, Y-pipe, JWT clutch, PP, FW, AAM plenum spacer, JWT intake, and an AAM ECU reflash.

I have never launched like that in my life, i was thrown back in my seat and held there for all of first gear. The Chevelle Supersport i was racing had slicks and i toasted him all the way through. heres the timeslip if you dont believe me and sorry i couldnt get it on tape, i wasnt expecting to do so good.

Pulled a 1.5 60 foot on the slicks and the size of the slicks are 27x11.5x15.
The other car i was racing was a Chevelle Supersport with a 392 engine and slicks.

__________________
JWT clutch, JWT pressure plate, JWT flywheel, JWT pop charger, AAM plenum spacer, AAM ECU flash, AAM Y-pipe, SPL intake pipe, Helix test pipes.
Best ET: 12.7 With all motor mods
13.4 w/ test pipes only.

Diesel350

iTrader: (6)

Damn if some of you guys wanna go drag racing go buy a Supra. I think the Z is a better car NA.

fairladyZ in Japan

This is an excellent thread ... and the opinions from the N/A guys are right on the mark.

Choose your N/A mods carefully .. and you will be rewarded with better acceleration, torque, handling, overall feel, and pure enjoyment.

I recently had the 3.9 FD put in .. and am now really enjoying that new addition. Next up will be the UR crank pulley.

zzzya

iTrader: (2)

I have a ton of NA mods and have had them for a while now. I was extremely pleased at the performance gains until I started running into tuning issues. I have been sending my ECU back and forth trying to get it right, but now it looks like another option will be available and fairly reasonable in price. The Emanage Ultimate, which there is a GB for in the FI thread. It is being tested right now by Sharif and hopefully will provide all the tuning necessary for NA applications including timing advance and target A/F. It would also be a great move for those who are considering FI in the future. NA can be rewarding and with this as a possible tuning solution, I think more NA power is definately going to be within grasp.

BTW, suspension and braking mods make such a big difference that I can't imagine driving the car without them now. Those mods allow you to really push the car to the limits and still feel in control and safe, very enjoyable driving experience. FI would be a rush, but to a certain degree a little scary. I have a high HP car in the garage and it is fun on the highway or down the 1/4 mile, but a little too wild for twisties and spirited driving through town.

Zivman

iTrader: (19)

When going N/A, 3.9 gearing is going to make the biggest difference as it actually forces the car to make a mechanical change. A clutch and lightened flywheel along with a crank pulley are other good N/A mods to do. Money spent on intakes, plenums, testpipes, and exhausts give MARGINAL gains.

I did it all besides the gearing and clutch/flywheel, and yes the car was faster, but relatively speaking, not that much faster. I was severely disappointed in the car with my $5000 in N/A mods - maybe I should have gotten a grounding kit....maybe that would have made the difference I said forget this BS and threw my money into FI.

I think the comments about the car being unbalanced are a joke. Do what I did, throw a nice 10" sub, amp, and enlcosure in the back and you have just rebalanced the car. I have litterally beat the crap out of my car since the install of my TT and the motor is still running strong. If it hasn't blown yet, I doubt it will in the near future. If it eventually does blow, and it most likely will, I will have had more fun with the car than most of you can imagine. The car with twins is an entirely new beast. It is such and improvement to the car, not just in power, but to the overall feel of the car.

For those of you hardcore N/A guys, I recommend you track down someone with FI, preferrable a TT setup with a good 7-9 psi; Drive the car(or at least let them take you for a decent ride), and then tell me that N/A is worth it. You will never be able to look at your N/A car the same way again.

zzzya

iTrader: (2)

Zivman, did you by any chance make it to the Tail of the Dragon? I knew some people from MN did. After driving that stretch of road a few times, I will never see the same thrill in driving fast in a straight line. I highly doubt any of the FI cars that drove through the dragon felt they could really utilize the FI on the car driving through those twisties and I know that none of them could keep up with Doug from Crawford in his NA Z. Yes, the TQ and acceleration is a pretty cool feeling and having that kind of power at your disposal gives one a sense of power and control, but it is not even remotely necessary to have more fun in this car than you may ever have in a car in your life. I felt that way after the Dragon!

Zivman

iTrader: (19)

I did not do the tail of the dragon. The thing about the turbos is that the power is there, but only if you want to get on it. Being light on the gas, the car feels similar to N/A. That said, on a twisty, it would be difficult to utilize the full potential of a FI setup. Now, you come out of the turns and you have more power than any N/A Z can comprehend. Now, with all of that said, a crappy driver like me in my APS TT Z is no match for a skilled driver in a N/A Z.

sentry65

iTrader: (11)

I actually thought about adding a 100 lbs subwoofer to the back of the Z to counter balance the weight of a twin turbo up front too. But then I decided it was just more money to spend and only make it harder to stop and turn.

For the drag strip near me, if you are able to break into the 11's, they require a full out rollcage. So if we add 100 lbs of turbos to the front, 100 lbs of stereo in the rear, and 80 lbs or rollcage, that's a lot of weight. Yeah you can shave off 130 lbs or so pretty easy with other things, and even more if you start spending some bigger money, but the NA guys can lose that weight as well.

I dunno, there's so many ways to set this car up to be fast. No NA Z will ever compete with a FI Z where FI Z's shine the most - straight line speed. I'm just starting to think anything beyond 380whp is really going to require slicks or drag radials to get traction. The car's gearing isn't set up well for FI well at all IMO. Why else would the Z06, GT, and other exotics be able to do 0-60 all in 1st gear? Because it's a taller gear. That and one of the big benefits on the highway for instance with so much power is the instant ability to accellerate. The 3.9 gears give you a huge portion of that accelleration for just $1500 installed.

There's nothing wrong with FI - I think FI is fun! It has it's place. It is making the car more straight line/muscle car oriented than a track car.

In my view, I see the Z as mainly a road coarse oriented car. It doesn't have a solid rear axel or rear engine layout, or room for 345mm tires like a drag car might have. You can still drag race with it, but it just isn't it's strength. I've come to terms with it. I don't even know how many people with FI have said they have a hard time with traction. Of course they can just use part throttle or short shift - but doesn't that eliminate part of the reason for getting FI in the first place - to have tons of power? If you're unable to use 100% of your power that you paid for, how much good is it doing you when you can only use 80% throttle and/or have to shift at 6000rpm instead of 6600 or 7100?

Of course FI is a thrill. Who wouldn't want to do 11's in the 1/4 mile? Nothing wrong with wanting that. The pro Z road coarse cars that have FI all have wide body kits with huge racing tires and considerable weight removed to run well with FI and they're bad *** cars.

One way isn't better than another. I'm sure each one of us is partly trying to justify why we blew thousands of $ on our own Z and prove why it was worth it. I think we're each going for different things.

The FI guys will always make fun of the NA guys, the NA guys will always make fun of the show car guys, the show cars guys will always make fun of the NA guys, the NA guys will make fun of FI.

Bottom line is where do you draw the line with hp? At which point do you say there's too much hp for the type of driving you do? Is 800hp safe on an autoX coarse? Is 287hp impressive on the drag strip? How different is a 3400 lb car going to handle excellent on a road coarse compared to a 2990 lb car?


For my car, I'm set up for NA, but am also going to be doing some nitrous shots so I can also get some pretty nice 1/4 times. I have a petty obsession - err I mean goal to beat my dad's C6 corvette in the 1/4 mile for some reason. I have no question my car will beat up on his on a road coarse because I have better tires, soon better suspension, lighter weight, more aggressive gearing (especially with the 3.9), more gears (he has an A4 transmission) and revs up faster with my tilton

Rickdogg

iTrader: (234)

Sentry...many of these guys don't track their cars on the circuit so they cannot relate. Keep on rallying for us NA die hards. I love FI, but not on the Z. I'll go heads up with pretty much anyone on here on a road course with FI and would love to see how I fair when the checkered flag comes out.

PS: I think I may be below 3,000lbs now at 1/2 a tank I will know more when I corner balance the car again

sentry65

iTrader: (11)

damn rickdogg - under 3000 lbs with a rollbar and everything is just flat out AWESOME! congrats. Your car is kinda a template for what I'm wanting to do with my car.


I've been flip flopping from NA to FI, TT to SC, nitrous, to stroker, to NA to FI back and forth a million times. I've jumped ship numerous times and really tried to learn all the pros and cons of each setup.

In terms of the Z, I think it just comes down to how you drive. For street use, FI can't be beat. For drag racing, FI can't be beat. So That probably means 90% of people who want to go faster, a FI kit will do them perfect if they can afford it. I bet there's more Z's at the drag strip than a road coarse. It's just the way it is. Drag racing is less risky and less costly than road coarse driving. More people are interested in straight line speed. Most people suck at driving. Hell I suck at driving, but I think turning is more fun than going straight. You'll never get 1 G of force happening on you in a 350Z by going straight. Not unless you have I dunno 800+hp at least

So It makes sense that if most people want to go fast in a straight line, NA just doesn't do that near as well as FI. However you still need some serious rubber to get the FI power to stick.

Adding 100 lbs to the front of the car really just sways the distribution from 53/47 to 54/46 - it's not huge, but it's still 100 more lb and being on the front makes it that much harder to transfer weight to the rear durring accelleration

for $10000 or so:

-NA, well rounded, lots of traction, less weight, reliable

or

-FI, tons of power, not much traction, more weight, can blow up engine at given moment without spending more $ on a build up

Zquicksilver

iTrader: (5)

This is a good thread and it doesn't seem like anyone is BS-ing with their opinions.

Sentry65, I put around 30lbs of sound dampening material throughout the back of my car. Besides balancing it a little better, it's a hell of a lot quieter. No loud noises coming from the wheel wells or exhaust. The weight is spread and a 60ft x 20" roll of FATMAT only cost $100. I did it for stereo reasons, but the benefits go well beyond that.

As far as traction... I have a base model and didn't realize how much 295's grip. Thought I was going to have to get an LSD, but this is turning out not to be the case.
I can hammer it from a stop and barely get tire spin and only a little chirp in 2nd. I love those Yoko 295s!!

Zquicksilver

sentry65

iTrader: (11)

Zquicksilver, that's cool. I notice when I leave my spare tire in and have a full tank of gas that I get slightly better launch/take off even in normal traffic - at least I can push the gas pedal down a little more.

When you add a rollbar or even rollcage most of it is in the back. Usually a rollbar weighs in at around 60 lbs and is centered over mainly the rear wheels. Rollcage weighs more obviously and stretches out a little to the front of the car's weight

I'm not totally sure if I want a cage or rollbar yet, but I'm looking forward to the stiffer chasis and more traction in the rear as well as safety and the ability to use 5 or 6pt harnesses


At this point, if I were to consider FI at all it would be the vortech or procharger. Mainly cause they weigh less than a twin turbo (been hearing it adds 75 lbs vs 100 for a turbo), are a little more predictable with lag, and have more of a natural traction control with how the torque and power curve is where the power comes on later in the RPM's. If you have like 500ft of tq at 3000rpm, you better have racing tires, cause the Z will just spin. The superchargers add the power up high which is where you want it on a road coarse. I'm still debating about adding one or not. The great thing about the superchargers is they almost 100% compliment the NA setup as far as parts. I don't have to remove the headers. I also might be able to use he 3.9 gearing as long as I'm around 350whp or can at least tune the car to run up to the threshold of my traction.

But I don't know if I'll do it or not. There are still some possible things coming out someday like individual throttle bodies, and long tube headers as well as being able to get more aggressive with the timing maps and using 101 octane fuel (which you probably use on a road coarse anyway) the Emanage Ultimate supposivly has 2 maps that you can switch between. One can be normal driving and one can be a 101 octane map with more aggressive timing. Or the 2nd map could be for nitrous. Nitrous is neat cause it adds 20 lbs to the rear of the car where you want weight if you are going to add it. It doesn't come on until after 3000rpms anyway, and it has more torque than FI

I do like twin turbos as far as FI go in theory better, but on the Z I think it's actually just too much power for good traction. They also weigh in more. Not to get into a TT vs SC debate, we can use the search button for that. But It's just neat that I can get a vortech tuner kit for $3550 at superchargersonline.com and litterally just add it to the setup I'll have since I'll already have the Emanage Ultimate, 440 injectors, and a return fuel system/fuel pump.

If I didn't have any other power mods, or just a couple minor bolt ons, I think a TT is just fine if you have good tires. But for someone like me who has 3.9 gears, cams, and full NA bolt on parts, it'd just be too much power. It'd cost more and I couldn't even tune the car to get all the power out of it without risking the engine blowing.

Rickdogg

iTrader: (234)

Yeah, I believe I am under 3K now. Last time I weighed in at the corner balance machine I was 3049 and since then I have removed a lot of items. I sold my nitrous system, got a full Ti single exit exhaust, and removed the radio, all speakers, headliner, center console, side air bags, hood latch, and all unnecessary "squirter" hoses.

I have noticed that you have been jumping around quite a bit as far as engine build up. I made up my mind a long time ago that I am staying NA for track reasons. It doesn't make any sense to have 4-500whp on a circuit track when many of us are still learning to push the envelope with mid 200 whp haha.

sentry65

iTrader: (11)

have you considered the tilton clutch?

I can notice a huge difference in my car on the street with how easy it is to take off when I have a full tank of gas and the spare tire in.

It's much harder to take off with the tilton with low gas and no spare tire holding down the rear. So I'm kinda leary about taking too much weight from the back. I know for a road coarse it doesn't matter so much cause you're already moving and a rollbar would add some weight back anyway, but we'll see what I end up doing. I like the idea of the CF hatch and TI exhaust, but don't want to lose my daily driven grip when taking off from a stop.

Speedracer

When I referred to the term "unbalanced", I wasn't referring only to the weight gain, I was referring to an overll mechanical unbalancing with regards to all the added power.

To go with your FI and still have "balanced" performance, you will need :

Massive wheels and tires for traction

Bigger/better brakes to deal with the increased momentum, rotational mass, and to counteract the too-easy acceleration while on public roads.

Upgraded suspension so you don't squat and dive all the time on hard stops and launches and to help control when your tail flies out accelerating out of turns

Upgraded engine internals, drivetrain components, and cooling systems to deal with the power and heat.

You can do FI correctly and have an unbelieveable car, but it will be FAR from where a Z started. That's fine, if you want to do that, but don't think otherwise.

When you do a high level mod to one part of your car, it exposes the inherent weaknesses in other parts, and you need then to mod those too in order to bring everything into balance again.

sentry65

iTrader: (11)

I think high HP TT kits need racing tires to get traction. Big 295 or 305 street tires only do so much. Maybe if you get full tank of gas, add in a rollbar and leave in the spare tire, use a heavy exhaust, 3.3 final drive, and LSD then you might be able to get traction. I dunno who knows

Every FI wants to be as fast or faster than the new Z06, but I'm not sure it can compete with the Z06 as far as traction. The Z06 has 325mm tires and the transmission and battery in the rear of the car. It's just set up better for drag racing. That'd be an awesome car to push as a drag racer.

Otherwise all that HP in the Z with a TT kit is only going to be useful if you have racing tires - which I know many serious people use anyway and so a TT would work for them.

Zquicksilver

iTrader: (5)

Speed says it best...

Boost the performance level in one area, plan on boosting it everywhere else...for a good overall performer. That's why the 911, Viper, ZO6 are built like race cars to begin with...which costs lots of muuuuuula!

It's also why I won't go FI, unless I just trip and fall into a wheel-barrow of money. Anyone see the FI shootout in the latest SPEED magazine?
Not a link to the magazine, but the other forum with a little chit-chat about it.

http://www.350zmotoring.com/forums/s...speed+magazine

Zquicksilver