Highest NA HP
09-21-2007, 06:11 PM
#43
Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: SoCal
Posts: 785
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Z1 Performance
What does a 9 second ~2000 lb Honda have to do with a Z? Are we now just comparing results on the drag strip? There are any # of Mustangs in that case that can come out and rip that car a new ahole too....but neither has any bearing on the VQ in engine development or the Z as a platform. The only similarities are that they are all NA and all run on some form of gasoline.
I think his view of NA tuning happens to be spot on, in the world of the VQ at least. In this realm, the lions share of the testing, the development, and the results have come from the Japanese tuners. In the world of Honda tuning, most of that work, and interest, has been done here (with some exceptions being in Japan and elsewhere). Cars tend to be regional in their appeal to the aftermarket, with some areas of the world going for one type of "build" while other area of the world goes for another.
Again, we're debating something that is not really debatable. Who cares what one company calls 'streetable' in terms of duration, or lift, or anything else? There is no doubt that there is NA power to be had from the VQ, but every few months it seems someone else comes into a thread, claims this and that, and that is all it ends up being....some rambling claim with 0 ounce of fact to back it up.
Are there 400 + HP VQ's out there in the world? Absolutely - I can name several places that have developed, own and run them. So what? What bearing does that have on those trying to build a worthy NA streetable car? Frankly not much, as the two types of builds are very dissimilar where it matters most.
And I'm sorry but money does not buy experience - it never has, it never will. Big budget builds don't always equal real power. Not to say that it would not take a significant investment to do an NA car propetlly, but no matter what car you build, from a Z, to a Honda, to a Ford Probe, it takes a significant investment, relative to the price of the car to make truly meaningful results (ie beyond the level of what bolt ons accomplish).
Not every car begs for the same parts - not every car wants, nor needs ITB's, not every car wants, or needs insanely ground cams - engines are a unit, there is no one magic part in the NA world that you are going to bolt on that suddenly changes the game - its a far more incremental approach, that must be well thought out and well planned from top to bottom.
I think his view of NA tuning happens to be spot on, in the world of the VQ at least. In this realm, the lions share of the testing, the development, and the results have come from the Japanese tuners. In the world of Honda tuning, most of that work, and interest, has been done here (with some exceptions being in Japan and elsewhere). Cars tend to be regional in their appeal to the aftermarket, with some areas of the world going for one type of "build" while other area of the world goes for another.
Again, we're debating something that is not really debatable. Who cares what one company calls 'streetable' in terms of duration, or lift, or anything else? There is no doubt that there is NA power to be had from the VQ, but every few months it seems someone else comes into a thread, claims this and that, and that is all it ends up being....some rambling claim with 0 ounce of fact to back it up.
Are there 400 + HP VQ's out there in the world? Absolutely - I can name several places that have developed, own and run them. So what? What bearing does that have on those trying to build a worthy NA streetable car? Frankly not much, as the two types of builds are very dissimilar where it matters most.
And I'm sorry but money does not buy experience - it never has, it never will. Big budget builds don't always equal real power. Not to say that it would not take a significant investment to do an NA car propetlly, but no matter what car you build, from a Z, to a Honda, to a Ford Probe, it takes a significant investment, relative to the price of the car to make truly meaningful results (ie beyond the level of what bolt ons accomplish).
Not every car begs for the same parts - not every car wants, nor needs ITB's, not every car wants, or needs insanely ground cams - engines are a unit, there is no one magic part in the NA world that you are going to bolt on that suddenly changes the game - its a far more incremental approach, that must be well thought out and well planned from top to bottom.
If you look at how engines are designed they have inherent flaws....some more than others.....some motors are destined to be performers while others are limited by their design weaknesses
The VQ has MANY inherent design flaws for producing NA power.....max cam lift, max streetable duration being a major one as well as the size of the factory cast head ports among others.....this is what the OEM gave us
One day DART or who knows who may offer custom heads with huge ports for more max cfm potential but as its stands the Nissan heads have those flaws due to the design parameters they originally had
The K series motor I used as an example was design with huge ports and crazy max lift from the factory to support very high revs.....the Z cant switch cam lobes, it cant run 13+mm on the lift in a street application it wont flow near as much per port as that head because of its OEM design flaws
So people who are wondering why the Z isnt making huge NA power have to realize these flaws and overcome them.....who has the money to cast/design/manufacture entire sets of cyl heads from scratch? A backyard Z tuner or a huge tuner?
You can only do so much with what your given and as I said before the ceiling for the OEM parts is lower than what people expected......VVEL and new designs will raise the ceiling over time but with the 03-06 motors we are stuck with what we have for now
NA engine theory isnt magic...its a science....the magic happens when people think of ways to overcome those design flaws through their own thinking.....that takes time and money....of which the majority of street tuners do not have to make an extra 15whp for 2.5K or more.....
It will cost LOTS of money and thats a fact.....you can tinker on the cheap but dyno time costs money, gas costs money and your personal time costs money
I would like to see a streetable NA ford motor that makes upwards of 160whp per liter...... do you have a link to an NA 4.8L making 700whp on pump with a factory block? I have yet to see one but perhaps your Ford knowledge is more extensive than mine
09-22-2007, 07:37 AM
#44
Former Sponsor
iTrader: (564)
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Long Island, New York
Posts: 19,266
Likes: 0
Received 5 Likes
on
5 Posts
Your post shows you really have not taken the time to study what a Z head can and can't support - but that's not what the point of my post was. My point was, and is, that what is needed for big NA power on one motor is not always what is needed on another
You reference a 9 second Honda - but what bearing does that have on a street driven Z? What similarities does a ~2000 lbs front wheel drive, car running an all motor race setup have to do with a guy wanting to make good NA power on pump gas from his 3300 daily driver? Again, we can compare cars till we're all blue in the face, and yes there are theories of what generally is needed for NA setups, just as there are theories of what generally is needed for Nitrous, or a Turbo, or a Supercharger, but it's where the theory and the specific platform intersect that is important, not that a Honda, or whatever, can make xxx hp per liter. The other thing too is that everyones idea of streetable can vary widely - we all have our own versions of what streetable are. Yes, I understand, recognize, and know first hand that there are many tricks that can be employed on virtually any motor (especially in the heads) to increase the power, powerband, etc.
Max streetable duration is an inherent design flaw of ANY motor - at some point, duration counteracts the ability of a motor to sustain vacuum at idle, and the ability to make a broad power band and flat torque curve. It's true on a Honda, it's true on a VQ, it's true on whatever. The fact that the Z has the VTC ability actually allows it TO sustain a higher duration that it otherwise would be able to if fixed position cam timing were employed
Not every motor needs 13mm of lift, or whatever other arbitrary number works great on another platform, to make power, and we all know there is a big difference between truly streetable and "yeah I can use it on the street" - but to address your post, the NISMO Type B blanks that are sold (for those who want to grind their own cams), can be ground to a max lift of .551 inch - or almost 14mm and a max duration of 312 degrees. Making a piston to support such a cam is a phone call away from anyone who would want to do so.
Anyway, I'm done - everytime this topic comes up, the debate ends up being the same.
I look forward to continuing the build on my own car, and watching as hopefully more people let the NA VQ bug bite them - it can only lead to better things!
You reference a 9 second Honda - but what bearing does that have on a street driven Z? What similarities does a ~2000 lbs front wheel drive, car running an all motor race setup have to do with a guy wanting to make good NA power on pump gas from his 3300 daily driver? Again, we can compare cars till we're all blue in the face, and yes there are theories of what generally is needed for NA setups, just as there are theories of what generally is needed for Nitrous, or a Turbo, or a Supercharger, but it's where the theory and the specific platform intersect that is important, not that a Honda, or whatever, can make xxx hp per liter. The other thing too is that everyones idea of streetable can vary widely - we all have our own versions of what streetable are. Yes, I understand, recognize, and know first hand that there are many tricks that can be employed on virtually any motor (especially in the heads) to increase the power, powerband, etc.
Max streetable duration is an inherent design flaw of ANY motor - at some point, duration counteracts the ability of a motor to sustain vacuum at idle, and the ability to make a broad power band and flat torque curve. It's true on a Honda, it's true on a VQ, it's true on whatever. The fact that the Z has the VTC ability actually allows it TO sustain a higher duration that it otherwise would be able to if fixed position cam timing were employed
Not every motor needs 13mm of lift, or whatever other arbitrary number works great on another platform, to make power, and we all know there is a big difference between truly streetable and "yeah I can use it on the street" - but to address your post, the NISMO Type B blanks that are sold (for those who want to grind their own cams), can be ground to a max lift of .551 inch - or almost 14mm and a max duration of 312 degrees. Making a piston to support such a cam is a phone call away from anyone who would want to do so.
Anyway, I'm done - everytime this topic comes up, the debate ends up being the same.
I look forward to continuing the build on my own car, and watching as hopefully more people let the NA VQ bug bite them - it can only lead to better things!
Last edited by Z1 Performance; 09-22-2007 at 07:47 AM.
09-22-2007, 08:04 AM
#45
Registered User
iTrader: (4)
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Northern New Jersey
Posts: 673
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by SergEK
Your view of NA tuning is a little narrow --- Our NA Hondas kick the crap out of the cars from Japan....its not a "tuning" knowledge its more about money than anything else
The Z engine is pretty simple and to get really crazy its gonna take alot of CUSTOM work that costs MONEY
ITBS are just the start (and some US tuners have made more gains with custom manifolds).....the ports are small on the Z as are the combustion chambers....the cams are limited in lift for street duty...VVEL will help but thats on future motors
NA gains are about small steps and ALOT of testing....since its cheaper and easier to make big power (for a heavy car like ours) most street guys are wise to use FI.....a high whp NA setup will not be cheap or very streetable since the cams would have to be crazy enough to supply high revs you need to make power
Intake -- high speed lobe: 312.5 (13.72mm) I would love to see a VQ run a cam like this on the street....
Hell even this
Intake --- high speed lobe: 302 (13.28mm) --- this is a street cam
http://www.intrinsicperformance.com/
Mid 9 sec (and dropping) all motor 4cyl .....dont think the J-spec boys can touch this yet =)
The Z engine is pretty simple and to get really crazy its gonna take alot of CUSTOM work that costs MONEY
ITBS are just the start (and some US tuners have made more gains with custom manifolds).....the ports are small on the Z as are the combustion chambers....the cams are limited in lift for street duty...VVEL will help but thats on future motors
NA gains are about small steps and ALOT of testing....since its cheaper and easier to make big power (for a heavy car like ours) most street guys are wise to use FI.....a high whp NA setup will not be cheap or very streetable since the cams would have to be crazy enough to supply high revs you need to make power
Intake -- high speed lobe: 312.5 (13.72mm) I would love to see a VQ run a cam like this on the street....
Hell even this
Intake --- high speed lobe: 302 (13.28mm) --- this is a street cam
http://www.intrinsicperformance.com/
Mid 9 sec (and dropping) all motor 4cyl .....dont think the J-spec boys can touch this yet =)
The US is better???? Please........ Japan set the benchmark on N/A tuning.
Honda is a good start. The integra, S2000, NSX, and all those type R cars.
Just remember that the Japanese market is not 1/4 mile crazy like people are here. Efficiency is there key. Tuners like Amuse, Mine's, MCR all build their cars for total balance and control. All of them have the knowledge and funds to build a monster if they needed to. Simply said by tsuchiya, a tuner car is no fun if you actually don't enjoy it. Tell me that you can bare a 400whp N/A civic as a daily driver.
09-23-2007, 02:23 AM
#46
Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: SoCal
Posts: 785
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by yoichi
The US is better???? Please........ Japan set the benchmark on N/A tuning.
Honda is a good start. The integra, S2000, NSX, and all those type R cars.
Just remember that the Japanese market is not 1/4 mile crazy like people are here. Efficiency is there key. Tuners like Amuse, Mine's, MCR all build their cars for total balance and control. All of them have the knowledge and funds to build a monster if they needed to. Simply said by tsuchiya, a tuner car is no fun if you actually don't enjoy it. Tell me that you can bare a 400whp N/A civic as a daily driver.
Honda is a good start. The integra, S2000, NSX, and all those type R cars.
Just remember that the Japanese market is not 1/4 mile crazy like people are here. Efficiency is there key. Tuners like Amuse, Mine's, MCR all build their cars for total balance and control. All of them have the knowledge and funds to build a monster if they needed to. Simply said by tsuchiya, a tuner car is no fun if you actually don't enjoy it. Tell me that you can bare a 400whp N/A civic as a daily driver.
There is a guy who drives a 305whp NA Integra around....low 11's with ease NA maybe even 10's if he dropped some weightThe fact that VTC was brought into an example is funny ---- it can only change cam timing ---- the lobes are FIXED which means the duration specs, the lift specs the ramps....all of them will be a compromise of high/mid/low end ranges....wayyy too broad for a suitable street motor with race intentions
One reason a Honda engine is going to make more NA power per liter is the use of MULTIPLE lobes with variable cam timing ....in essence the Honda will be using two seperate cams for one motor, breaking up street duty from race duty
Therefore a mild cam that creates enough vaccum for idle is no problem because the big lift, long duration cam will take over later in the band
Nissan is developing this in their own way with VVEL on the intake side....hopefully one day they do it on both the intake and exhaust side for better potential
Are you really gonna compare a VQ head to say an S2000 head? Grab a flow bench and some popcorn because if you dont know which head flows better than you dont much about NA at all
As I said before the major Japanese tuners have $$$$ they spend on R&D....most US tuners are privateers doing it for the love and sometimes it grows into a small business
The fastest Hondas in the world are HERE period. Hondas also happen to be more popular here so thats part of it but the tuners in the US are much younger overall than the Japanese tuners.....so as US tuners mature so will their outlook on power production --- we are already seeing that with many 90's tuners now being 30 or older.....these arent kids tinkering with basic bolt-ons the are adults with engineeing degrees looking for a better way
The VQ does not yet have the sheer following the Honda community has so there are fewer people testing combinations and giving feedback for others to make notes on
I am making it a point to approach my mods one by one so I can offer my experience to other VQ owners.....the problem is the scale of differences in each VQ setup.....I learned today there are more than 30 different ECU part numbers for the VQ (maybe more) which means each will respond differently plus the differences in tolerances and advances (non revup vs revup) so that makes it somewhat difficult to offer a set A+B = C path for a VQ because it falls into the (well it depends) category
I have an 06 MT REVUP ---- so my mods may not make the same power on other VQs but hopefully another 06 MT REVUP owner can use my time and money to better choose their mods
BUt one thing I can tell you is I have been into NA engines for a while and there are basic things that most engines need to make power.....high velocity heads, big cams and lots of tuning
Who makes big cams for the VQ right now? Nobody
Who makes high velocity heads for the VQ? Nobody
Proven long tube headers? Nobody
Proven high rpm 9-10K rpm intake mani? Nobody
Will someone someday --- hopefully --- but the reality is there whether you want to believe it or not.....designing, testing, building, destroying....this will all take cubic DOLLARS to turn into a reality and thats another reality
I support shops who tinker and pass on their knowledge to their customer cars.....IPS is a great company I think and has done alot for K series development ....thats one example of people spending time/money to further things for many others who dont have the time/money to replicate the success they have had
Didnt find a 700+whp facotry block 4.8L Ford motor huh? Didnt think so
I couldnt care less about race motors because I drive my car on the street....I showed you even their street cam is 13mm lift....thats crazy lift....but they can get away with it because of the ramp design and the fact the primary cam isnt as agressive (for idle, low rpm cyl filling)
How can you overcome that in a Z right now? You cant...VVEL in the future
Speaking of tinkering I spent another day down at the dyno with fellow Z and G VQ owners....spent MY money to buy a part and test it ....13hp from a simple TB spacer....even if it only made 5hp....it cost $87....thats the type of stuff other VQ owners need to share....realistic mods that are proven....will it work on all VQ's....who knows....probably not but on my 06 REVUP MT it did
I will continue to buy mods, test them and post my results for others to use....the more we do that the more consistent we can get with mod paths....which makes for more power combinations once figured out....
So I will pose this question....how long will it take for a street Z 3.5L to make 560whp NA? If you need to solve a problem disect how a street engine can make that kind of power and figure out how to replicate it on your motor
Street guys seem to think 300whp NA is a magical number 85whp per liter....does that give you any hint at how far the motor would go....not even in the same league
We have very competent minds here in the states, its just a matter of pooling them and funding their ideas to get past the OEM roadblocks
By the way --- a 1/4 mile is a simple and effective test of POWER....when talking engine theory dynos and 1/4 miles go a long way in testing whether or not a motor makes power.....road courses can be setup and driver related...
Stick to engine theory
09-23-2007, 05:20 AM
#47
Registered User
iTrader: (7)
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Texas
Posts: 528
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There's not a factory Ford 4.8 block producing 700rwhp because there's no factory 4.8 (currently). 
Link to a 1000rwhp Cobra, and before you go crazy, a Teksid block is a STOCK block on a 98 Cobra: http://www.svtperformance.com/forums...67&postcount=1
Originally Posted by HISSMAN, [url
http://www.svtperformance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=131206&highlight=teksid+horsepower][/url] The 98 Aluminum cobra block will easily handle 1200 hp. I am having Ported and polished 04 Cobra heads, and a 2.3 Whipple charger installed as well as all of the other necessary upgrades. We are shooting for 600 rwhp just to keep it streetable. It is also going to be stroked to 5.0 liters. These blocks are plenty strong enough.
EDITED : This post is from when I had a 1998 Cobra, not my 04 cobra.
EDITED : This post is from when I had a 1998 Cobra, not my 04 cobra.
09-23-2007, 01:53 PM
#48
Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: SoCal
Posts: 785
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by 68Stang
There's not a factory Ford 4.8 block producing 700rwhp because there's no factory 4.8 (currently).
Link to a 1000rwhp Cobra, and before you go crazy, a Teksid block is a STOCK block on a 98 Cobra: http://www.svtperformance.com/forums...67&postcount=1
Link to a 1000rwhp Cobra, and before you go crazy, a Teksid block is a STOCK block on a 98 Cobra: http://www.svtperformance.com/forums...67&postcount=1
Its like the Stock 5.0L blocks that cracked in half at 500whp....I could show you Supras making 950+whp on stock rotating assemblies and blocks...3.0L setups....who gives a crap...that motor was overly designed and detuned to the factory power levels it made....
Inherent design flaws are cured by companies like DART who will make stronger, larger blocks with larger coolant paths ...etc...where there is a will there is a way....same with the heads....someday some company will offer an all new casting with larger ports that maintain high velocity and maybe even add VVEL into the mix for older 03-06 motors.....we can dream
But we are talking using OEM components so far with the VQ.....this will severly limit NA powerproduction because of all the compromises they made when originally designing the motor (when they were almost broke and needed to make a come back)
I think the new HR is gonna be one of the first motors to break 300whp NA on the street.....I guess I may get close with my REVup but only time will tell....280ish and even 290ish is plausable....just may take a few more tricks to bump over 300whp.....which is kinda sad but for now there isnt much choice...I will still try though ....most NA street mods help boosted power
09-23-2007, 08:25 PM
#49
Registered User
iTrader: (7)
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Texas
Posts: 528
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Do you mean 4.6 liter?
And yes, the Ford Teksid aluminum block is capable of 1000+, rods/pistons not withstanding. The arguement about the block, as far as I could tell, was only concerning the block anyways, not power adder or n/a. "Didnt find a 700+whp facotry block 4.8L Ford motor huh?"
btw, SergEK, do you have AOL IM? If so, hit me up at rkm82. I'm on randomly.
And yes, the Ford Teksid aluminum block is capable of 1000+, rods/pistons not withstanding. The arguement about the block, as far as I could tell, was only concerning the block anyways, not power adder or n/a. "Didnt find a 700+whp facotry block 4.8L Ford motor huh?"
btw, SergEK, do you have AOL IM? If so, hit me up at rkm82. I'm on randomly.
09-23-2007, 09:59 PM
#50
Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: SoCal
Posts: 785
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by 68Stang
Do you mean 4.6 liter?
And yes, the Ford Teksid aluminum block is capable of 1000+, rods/pistons not withstanding. The arguement about the block, as far as I could tell, was only concerning the block anyways, not power adder or n/a. "Didnt find a 700+whp facotry block 4.8L Ford motor huh?"
btw, SergEK, do you have AOL IM? If so, hit me up at rkm82. I'm on randomly.
And yes, the Ford Teksid aluminum block is capable of 1000+, rods/pistons not withstanding. The arguement about the block, as far as I could tell, was only concerning the block anyways, not power adder or n/a. "Didnt find a 700+whp facotry block 4.8L Ford motor huh?"
btw, SergEK, do you have AOL IM? If so, hit me up at rkm82. I'm on randomly.
No I was referring to steet Honda NA motors that are making around 300-320whp from 2.0L NA setups (factory crank, sleeves, block)....agressive cams, some forged pistons, light rods, tuned equal length long tube header yadda yadda....basically bad *** NA power production on pump gas....to imitate that for the VQ we would need a VVEL (intake + exhaust side) a block capable of Handling 10K rpm, --- I think the rods would be easy enough to handle the pistons too....but we would need new castings for the heads for larger ports that maintained high veloctity.....
Taking a motor thats designed well and improving on it isnt too hard....the VQ IMO was never designed to produce a high amount of NA hp.....560 or more whp NA anyway.....300-400 sure maybe with stroking and super high compression with forged rods (8K rpm or so probably)
But to make it into the 500+whp range and beyond is going to take the above miracle....its possible, just time and money in the way
My only gripe is some guys are ignoring what others have tested and continue to improve on when it comes to high whp NA setups....I'm not talking bike motors.....I talking NA car motors....Domestic guys just go bigger...the DOHC cobra motors had some pretty good potential but most would fall victim to huge motor guys....lots of domestic guys dont care if you make X power with a small motor as long as they make X + 1 they take the larger motor
On top of that the financial side of it makes it even less appealing to push a small motor because you delve into high tech parts that arent cheap.....when a larger cheaper motor will make "more" power
Some would argue why waste time developing the VQ when a larger LSX block would make more power for less money
While true, this leaves the VQ with fewer people willing to push it further than it is currently 114whp per liter or 228whp from say a 2.0L motor....which is street mod K series territory....not what I would call exactly "stunning" results for full "race" motors......that should be an indication of the road blocks even the $$$ tuners in Japan are up against developing the VQ
Even knowing this I still would like to see alot more street guys pushing at least 300whp on a dynojet....I think with that power and a little weight reduction the Z would be where I think it should be as a sports car....and I hope once its figured out parts wise the setup becomes somewhat affordable (mass production parts)
Everytime I pick up a MM+FF I shake my head at the prices for parts lol....again more guys using the same motor thats basically been the same or near it for a very very long time lol
The import motors constantly change and arent produced in quite the volume domestic motors are.....the K series is one of a few import engine series that is used globally and has been here for quite a while in some form.....Civic, RSX, CRV, Accord, TSX to name a few....multiple global platforms using the same motor.....so parts development is $$$ for those who make parts, much more so than the B series in terms of numbers
I was/am still hoping NIssan does the same with the VQ....they have changed it quite a bit and newer versions dont seem to be compatible so....I think that hurts us as enthusiasts as a whole...the GTR for example....some say yes some say no....will it be a VQ or its own motor? How big will they take the VQ before giving the Z a V8? (its going to happen someday) Will they ever make two versions of the Z again, one FI and the other NA?
Only time will tell.....just as how far NA street VQs will get pushed by normal joe budgets....
09-24-2007, 09:05 AM
#51
Registered User
iTrader: (7)
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Texas
Posts: 528
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I know what you're saying about parts prices...
I went from a 68 Mustang with a 289, parts were plentiful and dirt cheap. And then I got a 96 2v Mustang GT, not so many parts, and kind of expensive. From there I went to a 98 Cobra, same amount of parts, but more expensive... Now I'm in an 03 Z, some parts seem very reasonable, while others are priced stupidly. Makes me wonder how exactly they do their market research.
I went from a 68 Mustang with a 289, parts were plentiful and dirt cheap. And then I got a 96 2v Mustang GT, not so many parts, and kind of expensive. From there I went to a 98 Cobra, same amount of parts, but more expensive... Now I'm in an 03 Z, some parts seem very reasonable, while others are priced stupidly. Makes me wonder how exactly they do their market research.
10-16-2007, 08:32 PM
#53
Some food for thought I guess....
http://youtube.com/watch?v=skGePxCnC...elated&search=
http://youtube.com/watch?v=BU9GFS5NK...elated&search=
http://youtube.com/watch?v=skGePxCnC...elated&search=
http://youtube.com/watch?v=BU9GFS5NK...elated&search=
10-17-2007, 05:59 AM
#54
Registered User
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Whorelando
Posts: 2,995
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by SergEK
Cool I go on yahoo sometimes...Yeah I guess it was the 4.6L lol...although I thought I saw a 4.8L somewhere....the 5.4 seems to be getting more attention these days too....700whp street setup (blown) in the last issue lol
No I was referring to steet Honda NA motors that are making around 300-320whp from 2.0L NA setups (factory crank, sleeves, block)....agressive cams, some forged pistons, light rods, tuned equal length long tube header yadda yadda....basically bad *** NA power production on pump gas....to imitate that for the VQ we would need a VVEL (intake + exhaust side) a block capable of Handling 10K rpm, --- I think the rods would be easy enough to handle the pistons too....but we would need new castings for the heads for larger ports that maintained high veloctity.....
Taking a motor thats designed well and improving on it isnt too hard....the VQ IMO was never designed to produce a high amount of NA hp.....560 or more whp NA anyway.....300-400 sure maybe with stroking and super high compression with forged rods (8K rpm or so probably)
But to make it into the 500+whp range and beyond is going to take the above miracle....its possible, just time and money in the way
My only gripe is some guys are ignoring what others have tested and continue to improve on when it comes to high whp NA setups....I'm not talking bike motors.....I talking NA car motors....Domestic guys just go bigger...the DOHC cobra motors had some pretty good potential but most would fall victim to huge motor guys....lots of domestic guys dont care if you make X power with a small motor as long as they make X + 1 they take the larger motor
On top of that the financial side of it makes it even less appealing to push a small motor because you delve into high tech parts that arent cheap.....when a larger cheaper motor will make "more" power
Some would argue why waste time developing the VQ when a larger LSX block would make more power for less money
While true, this leaves the VQ with fewer people willing to push it further than it is currently 114whp per liter or 228whp from say a 2.0L motor....which is street mod K series territory....not what I would call exactly "stunning" results for full "race" motors......that should be an indication of the road blocks even the $$$ tuners in Japan are up against developing the VQ
Even knowing this I still would like to see alot more street guys pushing at least 300whp on a dynojet....I think with that power and a little weight reduction the Z would be where I think it should be as a sports car....and I hope once its figured out parts wise the setup becomes somewhat affordable (mass production parts)
Everytime I pick up a MM+FF I shake my head at the prices for parts lol....again more guys using the same motor thats basically been the same or near it for a very very long time lol
The import motors constantly change and arent produced in quite the volume domestic motors are.....the K series is one of a few import engine series that is used globally and has been here for quite a while in some form.....Civic, RSX, CRV, Accord, TSX to name a few....multiple global platforms using the same motor.....so parts development is $$$ for those who make parts, much more so than the B series in terms of numbers
I was/am still hoping NIssan does the same with the VQ....they have changed it quite a bit and newer versions dont seem to be compatible so....I think that hurts us as enthusiasts as a whole...the GTR for example....some say yes some say no....will it be a VQ or its own motor? How big will they take the VQ before giving the Z a V8? (its going to happen someday) Will they ever make two versions of the Z again, one FI and the other NA?
Only time will tell.....just as how far NA street VQs will get pushed by normal joe budgets....
No I was referring to steet Honda NA motors that are making around 300-320whp from 2.0L NA setups (factory crank, sleeves, block)....agressive cams, some forged pistons, light rods, tuned equal length long tube header yadda yadda....basically bad *** NA power production on pump gas....to imitate that for the VQ we would need a VVEL (intake + exhaust side) a block capable of Handling 10K rpm, --- I think the rods would be easy enough to handle the pistons too....but we would need new castings for the heads for larger ports that maintained high veloctity.....
Taking a motor thats designed well and improving on it isnt too hard....the VQ IMO was never designed to produce a high amount of NA hp.....560 or more whp NA anyway.....300-400 sure maybe with stroking and super high compression with forged rods (8K rpm or so probably)
But to make it into the 500+whp range and beyond is going to take the above miracle....its possible, just time and money in the way
My only gripe is some guys are ignoring what others have tested and continue to improve on when it comes to high whp NA setups....I'm not talking bike motors.....I talking NA car motors....Domestic guys just go bigger...the DOHC cobra motors had some pretty good potential but most would fall victim to huge motor guys....lots of domestic guys dont care if you make X power with a small motor as long as they make X + 1 they take the larger motor
On top of that the financial side of it makes it even less appealing to push a small motor because you delve into high tech parts that arent cheap.....when a larger cheaper motor will make "more" power
Some would argue why waste time developing the VQ when a larger LSX block would make more power for less money
While true, this leaves the VQ with fewer people willing to push it further than it is currently 114whp per liter or 228whp from say a 2.0L motor....which is street mod K series territory....not what I would call exactly "stunning" results for full "race" motors......that should be an indication of the road blocks even the $$$ tuners in Japan are up against developing the VQ
Even knowing this I still would like to see alot more street guys pushing at least 300whp on a dynojet....I think with that power and a little weight reduction the Z would be where I think it should be as a sports car....and I hope once its figured out parts wise the setup becomes somewhat affordable (mass production parts)
Everytime I pick up a MM+FF I shake my head at the prices for parts lol....again more guys using the same motor thats basically been the same or near it for a very very long time lol
The import motors constantly change and arent produced in quite the volume domestic motors are.....the K series is one of a few import engine series that is used globally and has been here for quite a while in some form.....Civic, RSX, CRV, Accord, TSX to name a few....multiple global platforms using the same motor.....so parts development is $$$ for those who make parts, much more so than the B series in terms of numbers
I was/am still hoping NIssan does the same with the VQ....they have changed it quite a bit and newer versions dont seem to be compatible so....I think that hurts us as enthusiasts as a whole...the GTR for example....some say yes some say no....will it be a VQ or its own motor? How big will they take the VQ before giving the Z a V8? (its going to happen someday) Will they ever make two versions of the Z again, one FI and the other NA?
Only time will tell.....just as how far NA street VQs will get pushed by normal joe budgets....
10-17-2007, 09:59 AM
#55
Originally Posted by Z1 Performance
I look forward to continuing the build on my own car, and watching as hopefully more people let the NA VQ bug bite them - it can only lead to better things!
Last edited by gothchick; 10-17-2007 at 10:10 AM.
10-17-2007, 11:56 PM
#57
Originally Posted by Z1 Performance
Jeremy was a bit higher than me since his compression was through the roof and on race gas. On pump gas, that's showed a sheet, I think my car and then Ritchie from Australia would be the 2 top, along with another gentleman in the UK - we're all right around the same figure
yeah we never tried anything more than c16 race gas on mine, i think i am going to build another engine and do a few things differently. i know i can hit 350 on pump gas with mid 11 compression. we have learned a few tricks lately with some stuff.
i need to find someone who has a few dollars and wants to do a NA build, it wouldnt even cost that much...
10-18-2007, 09:19 PM
#60
Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 186
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Z1 what are you projected Dyno Jet Numbers? 340whp? If thats the case thats about 360whp on a Dynapack, this would be better then whatever they have over in Japan, if indeed they are dynoing them on dynapacks as well.
IMO this incedible NA power, you've added about 85+ hp to the wheels vs stock on pump gas, and you say you've done a conservitive tune.
IMO this incedible NA power, you've added about 85+ hp to the wheels vs stock on pump gas, and you say you've done a conservitive tune.