The big header / vendor debate...
12-22-2003, 02:51 PM
#22
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mjedens, thanks for that post! I have not seen any hard numbers like that yet for the Crawfords, only talk. It's good to see that because my motor plans are very similar to yours and I may find a set of Crawford headers on my Z when the time comes. Thanks for finally posting some good #'s. Maybe they were posted before and I was out of town of something I don't know. Anyways....i would sat those are overwhelming numbers - for a modded VQ.
12-22-2003, 03:29 PM
#23
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I don't think that "standalone change" theory can explain away a difference of 38 ft-lbs of torque
12-22-2003, 03:35 PM
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Great post zzzya! That's what I am talking about!!!!
There are no universal truths in this game guys....it's not zero sum. All the data in the world is out there, just need to review it and decide for yourself. Of course just about the worse thing you can is decide without having a basis for such a decision beyond an emotional one. So if thats the case, seek out help (professional installers, other board members whos opinion you trust, etc.), and ask them. The best ones out there will back up their claims with fact (and just in the theoretical sense, but real world fact). If they don't know, they will tell you just that. There is a good level of knowledge on this board, but like any other website, its concentrated amongst a few people. So take your time, wade through the BS, and you'll find the raw facts.
Adam
There are no universal truths in this game guys....it's not zero sum. All the data in the world is out there, just need to review it and decide for yourself. Of course just about the worse thing you can is decide without having a basis for such a decision beyond an emotional one. So if thats the case, seek out help (professional installers, other board members whos opinion you trust, etc.), and ask them. The best ones out there will back up their claims with fact (and just in the theoretical sense, but real world fact). If they don't know, they will tell you just that. There is a good level of knowledge on this board, but like any other website, its concentrated amongst a few people. So take your time, wade through the BS, and you'll find the raw facts.
Adam
12-22-2003, 04:07 PM
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Re: The big header / vendor debate...
Originally posted by Jason@Performance
OK,
First off. Performance Nissan in general does NOT like to step on other vendors / parts manufacturer's toes at all. We will never jump on someone else's thread and say "DON'T BUY X-Product BUY OURS," we may voice our opinion in how a product will be good or bad for you whether we sell it or not! When it comes down to it, we buy our own parts, NISMO or not, we are car enthusiast's just like you who happen to be under the roof of a dealership that gives us some room to play.
OK,
First off. Performance Nissan in general does NOT like to step on other vendors / parts manufacturer's toes at all. We will never jump on someone else's thread and say "DON'T BUY X-Product BUY OURS," we may voice our opinion in how a product will be good or bad for you whether we sell it or not! When it comes down to it, we buy our own parts, NISMO or not, we are car enthusiast's just like you who happen to be under the roof of a dealership that gives us some room to play.
Originally posted by Jason@Performance
Now to my point.
NISMO / CRAWFORD HEADERS.
I like those guys, they are nice guy's, I speak to the Individual on AIM a lot. I don't believe it is good business etiquette to jump in and say DON'T buy this product buy OURS, and LOOK how much BETTER ours FLOW...
Now to my point.
NISMO / CRAWFORD HEADERS.
I like those guys, they are nice guy's, I speak to the Individual on AIM a lot. I don't believe it is good business etiquette to jump in and say DON'T buy this product buy OURS, and LOOK how much BETTER ours FLOW...
Originally posted by Jason@Performance
OK.. So your tubes are longer, they have as many individual pipes as the borla exhaust (more welds to crack), some of the pipes look to have a complete 90 degree angle turn in them...
Now, the NISMO headers may have shorter tubes, but they are still equal length, and the curves in the piping are more gradual and smooth allowing for smoother air flow.
Why do your headers not have a flange against the head? Are you having fitment issues? The NISMO's don't have fitment issues where the flange meets the head? I know the borla's did, but I hear they fixed that.
Yes, the NISMO headers rubbed on the steering column at first, but that has been fixed.
OK.. So your tubes are longer, they have as many individual pipes as the borla exhaust (more welds to crack), some of the pipes look to have a complete 90 degree angle turn in them...
Now, the NISMO headers may have shorter tubes, but they are still equal length, and the curves in the piping are more gradual and smooth allowing for smoother air flow.
Why do your headers not have a flange against the head? Are you having fitment issues? The NISMO's don't have fitment issues where the flange meets the head? I know the borla's did, but I hear they fixed that.
Yes, the NISMO headers rubbed on the steering column at first, but that has been fixed.
Originally posted by Jason@Performance
To top things off. Your headers are $200 more then the NISMO!
To top things off. Your headers are $200 more then the NISMO!
Originally posted by Jason@Performance
I have nothing against anything that is not NISMO I don't want any one to think that. So far with the parts I have put on my car (exhaust / soon to be headers) I think they have the best gain per dollar of the parts. The headers will be NISMO because that is still what I think is the best option. Suspension I am going with JIC, Intake I will be seeing how I like the JWT Pop Charger next with Mines Air Duct.
I have nothing against anything that is not NISMO I don't want any one to think that. So far with the parts I have put on my car (exhaust / soon to be headers) I think they have the best gain per dollar of the parts. The headers will be NISMO because that is still what I think is the best option. Suspension I am going with JIC, Intake I will be seeing how I like the JWT Pop Charger next with Mines Air Duct.
Guys, point is I don't go on this form bashing anybody else’s parts. We are building parts for the 350 because we want to and are tying to build the best bang for the buck parts out there. Some might not agree that are stuff is the best bang for their buck, that’s there opinion. We have over 150 satisfied customers out there just since July for just one part. A new list has started for our recent header release. I know there is a certain individual that rubs people the wrong way at times, for this I apologize but he by no means expresses the same opinion as me. You want to go after somebody, try him. He likes that sort of $hit.
As for the naysayers in this post, we have dyno tested all our parts on 3 different cars at two different dynos, what more do we have to do to get the benefit of the doubt. We are not fudging numbers. The parts make power. They made power for us, using our parts on stock cars. There may be cars out there that wont see the same power, but that is life. Oh yeah please note Strictly Z saw the gains as well.
12-22-2003, 04:24 PM
#27
Re: Re: The big header / vendor debate...
Originally posted by dougrace zs
As for the naysayers in this post, we have dyno tested all our parts on 3 different cars at two different dynos, what more do we have to do to get the benefit of the doubt. We are not fudging numbers. The parts make power. They made power for us, using our parts on stock cars. There may be cars out there that wont see the same power, but that is life. Oh yeah please note Strictly Z saw the gains as well.
As for the naysayers in this post, we have dyno tested all our parts on 3 different cars at two different dynos, what more do we have to do to get the benefit of the doubt. We are not fudging numbers. The parts make power. They made power for us, using our parts on stock cars. There may be cars out there that wont see the same power, but that is life. Oh yeah please note Strictly Z saw the gains as well.
For me, I still just want to see some independent dynos. Seeing where you folks are coming from, I'm going to stop posting about Crawford products entirely until I have one of your parts dynoed.
Sorry again to hear about Baby I. Good luck.
12-22-2003, 04:48 PM
#28
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Re: Crawford vs Nismo
Originally posted by mjedens
I switched my Nismo headers for the Crawford Headers one week ago! I did "no nother mods" between dyno's ! The simple facts are as follows: Starting at the 2100 rpm range in 50 increments to 2900 rpm the increases in torqe from the Crawford's were as follows:
2100 +4
2150 +27
2200 +32
2250 +32
2300 +38
2350 +29
2400 +21
2450 +12
2500 +13
2550 +6
2600 +19
2650 +11
2700 +24
2750 +30
2800 +19
2850 +16
2900 +9
All other ranges showed no particular differences! Top end (above 6500 to 7000) torque did not decrease as fast! Highest torqe numbers were equal @ 4500 rpm. Horse power increase also went to the Crawfords with a gain of 5 starting @ 6450 & increasing to 8 @ 6850 to 7000.
I switched my Nismo headers for the Crawford Headers one week ago! I did "no nother mods" between dyno's ! The simple facts are as follows: Starting at the 2100 rpm range in 50 increments to 2900 rpm the increases in torqe from the Crawford's were as follows:
2100 +4
2150 +27
2200 +32
2250 +32
2300 +38
2350 +29
2400 +21
2450 +12
2500 +13
2550 +6
2600 +19
2650 +11
2700 +24
2750 +30
2800 +19
2850 +16
2900 +9
All other ranges showed no particular differences! Top end (above 6500 to 7000) torque did not decrease as fast! Highest torqe numbers were equal @ 4500 rpm. Horse power increase also went to the Crawfords with a gain of 5 starting @ 6450 & increasing to 8 @ 6850 to 7000.
12-22-2003, 06:32 PM
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Re: The big header / vendor debate...
Originally posted by Jason@Performance
OK,
First off. Performance Nissan in general does NOT like to step on other vendors / parts manufacturer's toes at all. We will never jump on someone else's thread and say "DON'T BUY X-Product BUY OURS," we may voice our opinion in how a product will be good or bad for you whether we sell it or not! When it comes down to it, we buy our own parts, NISMO or not, we are car enthusiast's just like you who happen to be under the roof of a dealership that gives us some room to play.
OK,
First off. Performance Nissan in general does NOT like to step on other vendors / parts manufacturer's toes at all. We will never jump on someone else's thread and say "DON'T BUY X-Product BUY OURS," we may voice our opinion in how a product will be good or bad for you whether we sell it or not! When it comes down to it, we buy our own parts, NISMO or not, we are car enthusiast's just like you who happen to be under the roof of a dealership that gives us some room to play.
12-22-2003, 07:14 PM
#31
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Originally posted by Nathan
Jeff
The horsepower would have to be higher also, after all HP is just TQ with different math applied.
Someone out there will know the formula
Jeff
The horsepower would have to be higher also, after all HP is just TQ with different math applied.
Someone out there will know the formula
Here's mine....
Last edited by Jeff@Performance; 12-22-2003 at 07:18 PM.
12-22-2003, 07:19 PM
#32
OK OK OK.... since we are all starting to chime in here I am just going to say one thing that is driving me nuts and am sure it has some others frazzled........
IN MY OWN OPINION!!!!!
If someone has an idea, does all the R and D and makes a product...they have the right to sell that product for whatever the market will bare. Price as far as I am concerned should not be used in any of these so called spats.............products for the commmuntiy should be made for quallity and value/ performance. Let the price = the value..............whatever the product is.
There is a lot of bickering over pricing these days...........who sells what for what.......why are those prices for that item higher than these. If you want cheap buy cheap. In the end by underselling.....its hurting the communtuy. The emphises should be on providing quallity, durable, performace oriented products that in this case enhance the enjoyment of the vechicle. If there is a need to under sell the product.........by all means go ahead.....but its the hurting the industry...... those that actaully are envolved in producing their own product (s) will agree. The emphisis should be on the product ...and its quallity......not the price.
IN MY OWN OPINION!!!!!
If someone has an idea, does all the R and D and makes a product...they have the right to sell that product for whatever the market will bare. Price as far as I am concerned should not be used in any of these so called spats.............products for the commmuntiy should be made for quallity and value/ performance. Let the price = the value..............whatever the product is.
There is a lot of bickering over pricing these days...........who sells what for what.......why are those prices for that item higher than these. If you want cheap buy cheap. In the end by underselling.....its hurting the communtuy. The emphises should be on providing quallity, durable, performace oriented products that in this case enhance the enjoyment of the vechicle. If there is a need to under sell the product.........by all means go ahead.....but its the hurting the industry...... those that actaully are envolved in producing their own product (s) will agree. The emphisis should be on the product ...and its quallity......not the price.
12-22-2003, 07:30 PM
#33
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And BJ, I agree with you... so the thread going on here. We have a person bashing Nismo headers everytime they get posted anywhere. Our question is simple..... why hide the before and after on a car with Nismo's and then the ONLY swap being the Crawfords. We have someone above posting numbers of torque and no graph. We have product bashing and no numbers. All I'm asking is for proof of the claim that they are so much more superior to the Nismos. This doesn't seem like too much when all anybody wants is the truth.
12-22-2003, 07:45 PM
#34
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Wow, All of this over a few tenths of a second gained.. HAHAHA...
I just want to see ACTUAL HORSE POWER no more of this SAE Correction stuff...
I just want to see ACTUAL HORSE POWER no more of this SAE Correction stuff...
12-22-2003, 07:45 PM
#35
New Member
Well, dwnshift, kind of depends on which side of the community you are on. If you are part of the industry, it can hurt, if you are a consumer, it can help.
Everyone looks for different things in their products. When you are looking at big ticket products like cars and such, there is a lot of different products and they are all unique. Some of these parts sold by alot of aftermarket people for cars are very similar. You can just look at the power curves or such, and buy what you want.
What you are saying was more true in the pre-internet world when really you only heard about things if you were in the loop. Now, you have to move with the market. The market will determine how much a product is worth, and now you have to PROVE why your product is better and worth more money. Competition is the only way to get the best products at the best price for the consumer.
If I can get the same high-flow cat from someone(remaining nameless) for $200 less, I don't care what the name or "quality" someone says they have, they have been undercut for the same product. If their more expensive ones are not better, then they fade from existance. It is called capitalism.
Everyone looks for different things in their products. When you are looking at big ticket products like cars and such, there is a lot of different products and they are all unique. Some of these parts sold by alot of aftermarket people for cars are very similar. You can just look at the power curves or such, and buy what you want.
What you are saying was more true in the pre-internet world when really you only heard about things if you were in the loop. Now, you have to move with the market. The market will determine how much a product is worth, and now you have to PROVE why your product is better and worth more money. Competition is the only way to get the best products at the best price for the consumer.
If I can get the same high-flow cat from someone(remaining nameless) for $200 less, I don't care what the name or "quality" someone says they have, they have been undercut for the same product. If their more expensive ones are not better, then they fade from existance. It is called capitalism.
Last edited by little_rod; 12-22-2003 at 07:48 PM.
12-22-2003, 07:58 PM
#36
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dbble post...
lets turn this into a thread for why Mac's are good only for graphic design and NOT internet!
DUDE! I need a DELL!
lets turn this into a thread for why Mac's are good only for graphic design and NOT internet!
DUDE! I need a DELL!
Last edited by Jason@Performance; 12-22-2003 at 08:00 PM.
12-22-2003, 08:10 PM
#37
mjedens made more HP and TQ in his latest dyno . . .why he has not posted it up I am not totally sure. Why the negative assumptions when he does not say which way or the other?
You want to know one reasonwhy he has not posted the results . . . I will probably get slap on the wrist for telling . . .he wanted to make sure he sold his nismo headers before releasing all the info. You want to know something else I should not tell you . . .here is how confident Doug was. He told mjedens that if the crawford headers did not make more power he would reinstall the Nismo's free of charge. That would have been 12 hours free labor had the results been different.
Doug is a class act and really deserves more credit then he is receiving from others on this board. I am glad to see some change in the voice of reason here but there is still things that are said that puzzle me, I guess all I can do is laugh about it.
Tis the season to be merry!
Just so you dont get the wrong idea here, Nismo headers are great. They are reasonably priced, stainless steel and have equal length design.
You want to know one reasonwhy he has not posted the results . . . I will probably get slap on the wrist for telling . . .he wanted to make sure he sold his nismo headers before releasing all the info. You want to know something else I should not tell you . . .here is how confident Doug was. He told mjedens that if the crawford headers did not make more power he would reinstall the Nismo's free of charge. That would have been 12 hours free labor had the results been different.
Doug is a class act and really deserves more credit then he is receiving from others on this board. I am glad to see some change in the voice of reason here but there is still things that are said that puzzle me, I guess all I can do is laugh about it.
Tis the season to be merry!
Just so you dont get the wrong idea here, Nismo headers are great. They are reasonably priced, stainless steel and have equal length design.
Last edited by VandyZ; 12-22-2003 at 08:14 PM.
12-22-2003, 09:08 PM
#38
man, all this just for who makes the Best headers and who's are the cheapest???
I am with HFM on this one, hell, I even get Nismo parts at wholesale and get labor at wholesale too (1/3 of customer price) and I am not even interested in paying that much for so little. OK, If I just won hte lottery I would, but it would NOT be my 1st mod for the price. just seems like soooooo much freaking work.
I am with HFM on this one, hell, I even get Nismo parts at wholesale and get labor at wholesale too (1/3 of customer price) and I am not even interested in paying that much for so little. OK, If I just won hte lottery I would, but it would NOT be my 1st mod for the price. just seems like soooooo much freaking work.
