Jason@Performance

iTrader: (11)

OK,

First off. Performance Nissan in general does NOT like to step on other vendors / parts manufacturer's toes at all. We will never jump on someone else's thread and say "DON'T BUY X-Product BUY OURS," we may voice our opinion in how a product will be good or bad for you whether we sell it or not! When it comes down to it, we buy our own parts, NISMO or not, we are car enthusiast's just like you who happen to be under the roof of a dealership that gives us some room to play.

Now to my point.

NISMO / CRAWFORD HEADERS.

I like those guys, they are nice guy's, I speak to the Individual on AIM a lot. I don't believe it is good business etiquette to jump in and say DON'T buy this product buy OURS, and LOOK how much BETTER ours FLOW...

OK.. So your tubes are longer, they have as many individual pipes as the borla exhaust (more welds to crack), some of the pipes look to have a complete 90 degree angle turn in them...

Now, the NISMO headers may have shorter tubes, but they are still equal length, and the curves in the piping are more gradual and smooth allowing for smoother air flow.

Why do your headers not have a flange against the head? Are you having fitment issues? The NISMO's don't have fitment issues where the flange meets the head? I know the borla's did, but I hear they fixed that.

Yes, the NISMO headers rubbed on the steering column at first, but that has been fixed.

To top things off. Your headers are $200 more then the NISMO!

I have nothing against anything that is not NISMO I don't want any one to think that. So far with the parts I have put on my car (exhaust / soon to be headers) I think they have the best gain per dollar of the parts. The headers will be NISMO because that is still what I think is the best option. Suspension I am going with JIC, Intake I will be seeing how I like the JWT Pop Charger next with Mines Air Duct.

When it comes down to it, I am a guy who purchased a Z long before I worked for performance Nissan (and paid way to much too along with most of us who bought the first batch) and love the car. You can buy my parts great! Ill get you the best prices I can for NISMO and 30 other manufacturer's I can get parts for. Ill talk to you and help you get the best part for you whether it is from us or not. I want YOU to be happy with a product YOU choose and like the product for "this and that" reason. I do NOT want you to buy a part because I TOLD you too, but because YOU wanted it and I showed you the pro's and con's of each and every product I have the knowledge of, and if it is a new product, I will look at it and use my knowledge as well as the knowledge of my coworkers to find what is BEST for the consumer. From us or not.

hfm

iTrader: (1)

Borla had problems with fitment, Nismo had problems with fitment, I have no clue about Crawford. I don't think I'll be doing any headers because the price (including installation) to performance gain doesn't make it worthwhile, regardless of the manufacturer. So, my views on this are unbiased.

The Crawford guys and their customers are tight. And, they're aggressive when it comes to sales. Not too many people will deal with all the abuse that will come down on you if you say anything critical about Crawford.

The fact is, I've seen two threads where there were no gains or 1 hp gain with the Plenum. I've compared the Crawford set up against a testpipe/intake set-up and found little difference in performance but a lot of difference in price. And, whenever I've said anything about these things, I would have no less than two interested Crawford people and a gang of customers, none of whom have dynoed their set up, rise up in arms.

Jason, don't bother arguing with them. Just keep selling your products. You guys are the best out there in pricing and in service. Having met Jeff and Jenny I know who you guys are and you don't need to resort to defending your products. At your prices, and with your friendly dispositions, they sell regardless.

FLY BY Z

I also have had my say with the Crawford way. I don't disagree with their products but with the method of their promotion. Maybe Doug doesn't, but some people who love him are good about disparaging other brands. I don't agree with this. To me, that is a lack of self assurance and makes me think they are covering up their own flaws by pointing out the others'. I, too, have had my head bitten off by the crawford cronies for voicing my opinion. Doug sent me a surprise but I don't know what it is. I will find out Jan 2. Maybe this is to change my ways? I don't know yet.

Anyways, I really don't comment a whole lot anymore because the people that paid a lot of money for Crawford parts will always feel a gain. Half the people that dyno actually find one. Naturally, the Crawford guys find industry leading gains in all their products. I am surprised that the Crawford strut bar doesn't show dyno proven HP.

One thing to consider though, is that Individual and the gang have gotten about 10 times better about the way they talk about other brands and promote their own. I will say that they are getting better. I still have a sour taste from their previous comments, etc. but only time will tell the future of their attitudes and, as a result, sales numbers. I will give up 5 HP to save 300 dollars and buy from someone who is comfortable enough to state their gains and let other manufs state theirs without talking trash about everything else made. My 2, waiting for the Crawford wrath.

Blownaway

iTrader: (1)

I am a Nismo Dealer and they are a nice header, we have installed plenty of them. After seeing the results of Mikes car I had no choice but to order the Crawford Headers, the results were overwhelmingly in favor of the crawfords. If someone is going to do cams or any internals. the crawfords really shine....For the people wasting their money on Borla, Stop the two to get are the Nismo and Crawford units..

FLY BY Z

So would it be safe to say that a stock internal motor will be good with NISMOs and a cammed or built motor will be good with Crawfords? And when you say, overwhelmingly in favor, do you mean 5-10 HP or a "overwhelming" 20-30 HP gain over the NISMOs? Overwhelming is a pretty big word for the differences I've seen between the two. Maybe something more like "noticeable with the correct configuration."

Jason@Performance

iTrader: (11)

I did not start this thread to be a crawford bashing thread at all! I have complete and total respect for what they do with product development (weither it shows gains or not) and with all of the excitement they bring to the Z community!

It is hard going by dyno number's when people post SAE number's that are NOT actuall horse power. A SAE number could show 10 HP difference when actual horse power could show 2 HP difference. you never know...

HFM - Thank you for the compliments. I just want to let it be known again, that I did NOT start this thread as an argument towards crawford / their products quality or function / more so for the fact of jumping on other vendor's and their products.

hfm

iTrader: (1)

I know Jase. But, it's not just vendors and their products that are jumped. It's forum members and any other product or any critical review of their products that also get jumped. If you ask me, they need to work on this because it doesn't look good for anyone involved. I should be more careful how I approach this as well instead of being so matter of fact about it or I'll look like a jerk as well.

As for their crew, they're genuinely likable. But, they need to understand that people will question their product and demand proof. As for vendor v vendor arguments, it's the samething.

Since I'm responding, I'll just add that I agree Borla isn't worth the couple hp gain, David Borla himself commented on little gains. And, that the Nismo fitment problem was corrected.

FLY BY Z

This is what I agree with and I have never (purposely) bashed Crawford. I don't want to sound like it now. I am just trying to say what is quoted. My way sometimes sounds a little more harsh. Sorry if it is. I just get carried away.

Jason@Performance

iTrader: (11)

If you ask me, if you are not wanting to spend tons of money but get alot of power for your car. Dont even bother with headers. Get some high flow cats..

Test pipes - the air will tumble out of the exhaust

the RT cats will allow for a straight even flow out of the exhaust...

I cant speak for the crawfords off of first hand experience like the RT's. but, from the dyno they posted.. I think that gain was from the high flow cats mostly.

Jason@Performance

iTrader: (11)

Im not saying you are bashing any one.. just a general statement..

mjedens

iTrader: (3)

I switched my Nismo headers for the Crawford Headers one week ago! I did "no nother mods" between dyno's ! The simple facts are as follows: Starting at the 2100 rpm range in 50 increments to 2900 rpm the increases in torqe from the Crawford's were as follows:

2100 +4
2150 +27
2200 +32
2250 +32
2300 +38
2350 +29
2400 +21
2450 +12
2500 +13
2550 +6
2600 +19
2650 +11
2700 +24
2750 +30
2800 +19
2850 +16
2900 +9

All other ranges showed no particular differences! Top end (above 6500 to 7000) torque did not decrease as fast! Highest torqe numbers were equal @ 4500 rpm. Horse power increase also went to the Crawfords with a gain of 5 starting @ 6450 & increasing to 8 @ 6850 to 7000.

dwnshift

iTrader: (1)

Cant we all just get along!

hfm

iTrader: (1)

I want your sways!

Jason@Performance

iTrader: (11)

Im going to need some say's to match up with my JIC's...

sugestions welcom...

just dont tell me I MUST GET THIS! hahaha

KJY9

Nice to see the numbers no one seems to mention, but are just as important...torque....looks like the crawfords topped the Nismos in the low RPM range by a max of +38@2300 if I'm reading that correctly?

Z1 Performance

iTrader: (564)

mjedens -keep in mind though that your car is otherwise modded...the headers were not a standalone mod for you, just a standalone change. So, perhaps the Crawford works better for your particular combo of mods........

350zdanny

I don't think that "standalone change" theory can explain away a difference of 38 ft-lbs of torque.

Jason@Performance

iTrader: (11)

If i were to drive my car below 3000 RPM all i hear is CHATTER from my flywheel...

VandyZ

iTrader: (2)

I know my attitude has gotten worse, but so has everyone else’s. We all agree Chris is real aggressive, and even makes us cringe when he says things that are heavily biased and sometimes completely unjustified. Neither he or I are paid by Doug, so when "stuff" goes down on the board and it is frowned upon by Doug, he cant really do anything about it.

It seems everyone has a sour taste in their mouth . . .except the non-affiliated owners of either product. At least they are happy!

Honestly, you don’t know how many times we have read some stupid and ignorant comment or post (even by a certain individual) and just gave them hell in our own circle of people. There are too many people who think they know the right answer to everything (including a certain individual). I can only speak for myself when I say I try my hardest to only bring valid and truthful information to the board, as do many others. I am not here to sell parts, my intentions are to clarify information that may be misconstrued dealing with the parts I have on my car.

zzzya

iTrader: (2)

This is very true, but something a lot of people tend to forget about when making posts. Most of the people who have modded their cars have made more than one change and are using different dynos than other people, in different climates and altitudes. Collecting all of the variables and making equal comparisons about one mod vs another or another product vs another is pretty damn hard to do in this arena unless a comprehensive database is started and maintained somehow by a moderator. Until that happens we will all be making our own decisions given the information we have available. I have no personal Dyno information (no availability), but love my setup and the results that I have. I only push my personal opinion based upon my personal experience. It really bothers me when people post about a topic that they 1. Have no personal experience with or 2. Have no supporting data. I only have data from other people with Crawford products(which is data that is suspect because of their relationship), links to product experts and I DO own the products, installed them myself and have experience with them. I have absolutely no affiliation with Crawford and have also butted heads with The Individual. I can post my opinion, but can not speak to experience with other products because I have not used them or driven a car with them. I can comment on their design however and will always try to point people towards information that will help them make the right decision for themselves. I am not suprised by the data that mjedens has posted however because if you have researched anything about header design, the Crawford headers have a great design for a street/track car with a lot of R&D behind them. Headers are designed for different results, people need to understand that and need to know what they want for results throughout the RPM range. As for comments about appearance, build quality and so on, these all tend to come only from those who have never seen these products in person and only pictures. I would have never purchased a 350Z if I only went from the initial pictures that I saw, but in person it is another story. People are making comments without actually having personal experience with something and these should be taken with a grain of salt. I could really care less if no one else buys Crawford products, except that Doug doesn't deserve that, because then I would only be one of the few lucky ones with the entire package. I know that will not be the case because anyone who really knows anything will use the information that is available and make the right decisions unless they can't afford the products.